For Torch

[courtside]

What is up with your Chaminade basketball posts? Haven't seen them lately as before? Losing 3 out of 4 to Vianney, DeSmet and Hazelwood Central will do that.

As I said before, parity party in high school hoops this year, 10-15 teams all very similar in ability. The V has the easiest road to the Final Four.(will get yuor Chaminade team in sectionals) Webster,(probably the best STL side area team) DeSmet, McCluer North, H.Central etc...all have to cross paths for the other spot. KC gts a team, and the other is a Springfield/Columbia/rural STL team.

[thetorch]

I have no great affection for Chaminade. They have a played a very quality schedule and by sheer coincidence happened to be playing other teams that I wanted to see. I've been working mainly nights the last few weeks so I haven't been able to get to many games lately. Almost made the trek out to Union to watch Wash-Borgia but got called in to work instead.

Webster is playing at Haz Central on Wed. I will be at that game. The statesmen are way overrated in my opinion. They can't hang with either Central or Mc North. The Sub North is slept on by most. North and Central are better than anything the west, south or MCC can turn out.

[courtside]

>I have no great affection for Chaminade. They have a played

>a very quality schedule and by sheer coincidence happened to

>be playing other teams that I wanted to see. I've been

>working mainly nights the last few weeks so I haven't been

>able to get to many games lately. Almost made the trek out

>to Union to watch Wash-Borgia but got called in to work

>instead.

>

>Webster is playing at Haz Central on Wed. I will be at that

>game. The statesmen are way overrated in my opinion. They

>can't hang with either Central or Mc North. The Sub North

>is slept on by most. North and Central are better than

>anything the west, south or MCC can turn out.

You are aware Hazelwood Central lost by 15 to DeSoto this week at Parkway West Tourney, who then went on to lose to DeSmet for title.

Hazelwood Central and McCuer North are nice, good teams. I couldn't disagree more with the assertion Webster couldn't hang with either. I think 10-15 teams can hang with either MN or HC, and Webster would be one of the better ones.

Hazelwood Central. What have they done vs the tougher opponents? They lost to Troy, split with St. Charles West, and lost to DeSoto...came back with win over Chaminade in 3rd place game. That doesn't shout head and shoulders above the rest to me. McCluer North, again, ...beat Chaminade twice, split with Gateway Tech, ...both HC and MN have beaten some bad teams too. Record vs the decent ones...nothing head and shoulders above the rest. Those schools might have some athleticism others don't have, and some individual players...but not much stronger teams, and not playing a tough schedule could cost them in post-season. You balked at DeSmet, who beat Chaminade, Gateway Tech, DeSoto...and so on...and while I agree they aren't that great...but that was the example you posted a few times...and my posts in response were that 10-15 area schools could all beat each other without a lot of problem....and they have all season.

As for post-season...Vashon gets Gateway Tech in districts, then needs a sectional win over Chaminade to go to Final Four...DeSmet v Webster winner will get McCluer North or Hazelwood Central(who play in districts)...to go to Final Four.

Troy has a chance if they can beat the Springfields and Columbia"s...Kickapoo is good, but Troy has a solid shot. Last spot is KC.

Any of the teams I mentioned could beat another one on a given night. And that was always the point in the first place...not any great teams...some good solid teams, lots of parity in above average range.

[thetorch]

Have you seen DeSoto play? Despite their small school stature Desoto and berkely could be the two of the top 5 teams in the state.

Desmet is a not a good team. They are bigger than a team like Desoto so they can manhandle them. A team with size like McCluer North destroys them. DeSmet also cannot score more than 50 points in a game.

I'll agree with you that there isn't a completely dominant team this year like we have had in the past with Vashon but my favorite is still North by far, their top three are more talented than any other team in the area. North's only losses were at Gateway when one of the top 3 was sick, and at Haz East, which is a sub north fluke. They man handled Tech a few weeks ago as well. North has beaten Chaminade twice, Troy, CBC, Tech and Beamuont. Once North makes it out of sub north districts they are easily the favorite to win.

[courtside]

>Have you seen DeSoto play? Despite their small school

>stature Desoto and berkely could be the two of the top 5

>teams in the state.

>

>Desmet is a not a good team. They are bigger than a team

>like Desoto so they can manhandle them. A team with size

>like McCluer North destroys them. DeSmet also cannot score

>more than 50 points in a game.

>

>I'll agree with you that there isn't a completely dominant

>team this year like we have had in the past with Vashon but

>my favorite is still North by far, their top three are more

>talented than any other team in the area. North's only

>losses were at Gateway when one of the top 3 was sick, and

>at Haz East, which is a sub north fluke. They man handled

>Tech a few weeks ago as well. North has beaten Chaminade

>twice, Troy, CBC, Tech and Beamuont. Once North makes it

>out of sub north districts they are easily the favorite to

>win.

Read your own posts some time past and present.

You change your story quite a bit here. So let's go with the current one. You like McCluer North...and H Central...ok...but let's go post for post.

McCluer North. You list as evidence to support your argument that McCluer North has beaten the following:

Chaminade

Troy

CBC

Gateway Tech

Beaumont.

You said DeSmet isn't very good. I agreed with you. They are decent but it isn't one of DeSmet's strong teams. My point all along was and is, that there is a lot of parity, DeSmet included. But it isn't high end parity.

DeSmet as you know has also beaten the following teams:

Chaminade

Troy

CBC

Gateway Tech

Beaumont.

Let's compare those lists and see if we have any overlapping teams. DeSmet has beaten all of the same teams, but to you are not good.

You also proceed to tell me that DeSoto is one of best 5 teams in State in your opinion. DeSmet defeated DeSoto last night by 11. ....but somehow in your logic that doesn't count because DeSmet is taller. So in your logic, if a team is tall they are automatically better than anyone else they play? But they aren't good. Just taller. So if DeSoto etc...are among the best in state, and DeSmet can beat them...DeSmet isn't good too? They are just taller? And when smaller teams win...Troy, etc...they are good. So if a smaller team won state, they are good. And if a big team won state, they are merely bigger/taller and not good? DeSmet is also not good because they don't score a lot of points. They play a pretty tough schedule, and in each game, the opposing team can blow them out of the gym if they were so much better, and they haven't been blown out once this year, not once against some good teams, many of whom you have mentioned. The last time you came here you touted Chaminade both times after they played DeSmet. You talked about their speed, athleticism, etc..and how much better they were than a team they defeated by two points. They played again, result, 2 points, and they played a 3rd time and DeSmet won by 2 points. I would say that if a school plays the same school 3 times...and results are all by two points...that is pretty even to me.

CBC has had good hoops teams over the years, and this isn't one of them, Beaumont likewise is not competitve either..(since both teams beat them, it doesn't matter anyway)

And, you also decide to post that a team missed a key player or players in games that would help your cause or argument. Hmm...when you posted previously two different times regarding Chaminade and DeSmet...you neglected to mention the starters missing for DeSmet in both of those games, ...when Chaminade loses the 3rd won, by same 2 point margin, you are nowhere to be found and for 3rd time DeSmet missed players....but posting missing players only works when you post it?

Now, you can post all you like how you don't like DeSmet in general, or don't like their style of play this year(I hate it myself). But results head to head and vs common opponents etc...are just that results. This DeSmet team lacks the players it has been known for, for 35 plus years. Lacks high quality guards, poor FT shooting, uncharacteristic of a DeSmet team, etc...and you say they are not a good team. Well, I don't think they are a good team either. But they are darn sure as good as all of the schools you mentioned, because the results say so. ....So what does that tell you ? Same thing I said a long time ago....parity party...and it is not at a high level. It is at a middling level. About 10-15 teams could beat another on a given day. No question about it, ...of course some of them better than others but that is a true statement.

If you don't think Troy or whomever can lace em up with Hazelwood Central or McCluer North this year, you couldn't be more mistaken, and Troy is much smaller than either of those two teams.

The point then was the same as now. I don't care if Troy, Webster, Vashon, DeSmet, Hazelwood Central, McCluer North,....goes to state etc...and whichever does, or if none do, I can guarantee you, I will be saying the same thing then....if Troy makes final four...I will be saying...decent club, can beat or be beaten by those same list of teams...etc...

As for brackets...Vashon or Gateway will likely make Final Four, unless Chaminade upsets one of them in sectionals.(same Chaminade you highly touted as posssibly doing that, and they could, ..but it is biased and incomplete to say DeSmet or Webster or Troy wouldn't be able to do the same).

Hazelwood Central or McCluer North will likely play either DeSmet or Webster to go to State in quarters.

Troy is in Springfield/Columbia portion to try to get to State

and one will be KC school.

[thetorch]

You seem to think I have some sort of favortim towards Chaminade or against DeSmet.

I merely reported on those games because I attended them. I was not at the game the other night so I really would have no knowledge of what went on there.

That said Chaminade is a good team to compare other teams against. Chaminade plays at a reasonably high level, they are deep with quality HS players, though they have no real D-1 level recruits. Their best player is going to be a D-2 forward and their second best player is an up and coming sophomore. So you can use this team as a measuring stick to compare players. A player who performs well against this team has some real talent, a player who plays lackluster may be overrated.

I could really care less about the teams per se, I am only evaluating players who could play at a higher level.

I'm not going to comment on games that I was not attending. It is true that on any given night any team can beat another one, but if I were to rank the teams on the MO side DeSmet would not be near the top. Their talent level outside of Brandenberg is poor, and Brandenberg fails to assert himself in most games. They play a deliberate slow down style but a decent coach with some athletes should run circles around them.

For my money these are the best teams in the area on the MO side 1-10

1. McCluer North

2. Berkeley

3. Webster

4. Vashon

5. DeSoto

6. Troy

7. Haz Central

8. St Charles West

9. Gateway Tech

10. Miller

I've seen all these teams play at least twice if not more.

Sorry but your Spartans don't belong in this group. It would not surprise me to see them not make it out of their district.

[courtside]

>You seem to think I have some sort of favortim towards

>Chaminade or against DeSmet.

>

>I merely reported on those games because I attended them. I

>was not at the game the other night so I really would have

>no knowledge of what went on there.

>

>That said Chaminade is a good team to compare other teams

>against. Chaminade plays at a reasonably high level, they

>are deep with quality HS players, though they have no real

>D-1 level recruits. Their best player is going to be a D-2

>forward and their second best player is an up and coming

>sophomore. So you can use this team as a measuring stick to

>compare players. A player who performs well against this

>team has some real talent, a player who plays lackluster may

>be overrated.

>

>I could really care less about the teams per se, I am only

>evaluating players who could play at a higher level.

>

>I'm not going to comment on games that I was not attending.

>It is true that on any given night any team can beat another

>one, but if I were to rank the teams on the MO side DeSmet

>would not be near the top. Their talent level outside of

>Brandenberg is poor, and Brandenberg fails to assert himself

>in most games. They play a deliberate slow down style but a

>decent coach with some athletes should run circles around

>them.

>

>For my money these are the best teams in the area on the MO

>side 1-10

>1. McCluer North

>2. Berkeley

>3. Webster

>4. Vashon

>5. DeSoto

>6. Troy

>7. Haz Central

>8. St Charles West

>9. Gateway Tech

>10. Miller

>

>I've seen all these teams play at least twice if not more.

>

>Sorry but your Spartans don't belong in this group. It

>would not surprise me to see them not make it out of their

>district.

Keep your posts coming, they get funnier each time. Seriously laugh out loud funny.

So in same thread you go from saying Hazelwood Central is head and shoulders above anything out West, South or MCC(your words not mine)....then proceed to rank them below, Webster, Troy, DeSoto, ....

As I said before, you have an agenda, and when you get called out on it...you change your story each and every post.

You change your story more often than a politician. Uh er uh...let's change those teams and orders, maybe nobody will notice...etc..let's now say...oh I was only talking about college prospects or certain individual players...when all of your posts were about teams...and opinions about teams overall, and even in the same post, after saying that..proceeded to make it about teams.

The point is your bias. You repeat your positive impressions for Chaminade. You can say Chaminade plays at a reasonably high level, but DeSmet doesn't? Huh? We went through this. Instead of discussing individual players in all of your threads...you talk teams. You said as a team Chaminade plays at a high level...but DeSmet doesn't.(I have said 100 times that I don't think DeSmet is that good...but anyone not biased or not with an agenda, would say they are equal to Chaminade this year, and in the same mix as all of the other mentioned teams...which more than anything says teams are down) You also previously ripped Troy, Webster and every other team not named McCluer North, or Hazelwood Central. Now you backpedal....to include other West and South schools. Knowing DeSmet defeated 3 of your top ten, and lost at buzzer to 4th....it is nothing short of strange bias you have against them. Chaminade played DeSmet 3 times...all were 2 point games different teams winning. ...but they play at high level and DeSmet doesn't...it is biased. I go to games and I have seen some of the highest scoring teams in the area slow it down vs DeSmet and not vice versa. If they weren't any good, they would get blown out of the gym. If they weren't any good, no way they could control a slower tempo all game. You now post that you go based on what you see at games...so any other improved or regressed play doesn't count when yu aren't there? lol. You really are too much.

Chaminade

Vashon

McCluer North

Hazelwood Central

Berkeley

Gateway

Miller

all have something in common. They are predominantly African American teams and coaches.

Webster, Troy, DeSmet, etc...and so on...aren't. Your posts, not mine only included the predominantly African American schools as being any good. We can go back to all of your posts if you like. If your posts were even mixed a little bit...it wouldn't stand out so much. Sheesh.

Try some objectivity once in a while. If somebody asked me, I would objectively look at something and give an objective answer. I go see many teams many times, and post objectively.

Your posts speak for themselves. Hopefully others read them and see your agenda. That won't fly here.

As for everyone else and the games...I like the V, Webster to make it out of STL. but in no particular order...McCuer North, Hazelwood Central, DeSmet, Chaminade, Gateway Tech, imo all have a shot to win games or advance as well.

Troy will have to get by Kickapoo and others and has a good shot.

KC will represent 4th spot.

[thetorch]

Hey man if you have something to say just say it.

I watched a couple games and posted on my observations. That is all man. What exactly do you want?

Am I not capable of having an opinion on players and teams just cuz it doesn't pass your muster or show some bias that you percieve. I don't really give a damn. Nobody is holding a gun to your head telling you to read my posts. I've been on this board a helluva lot longer than you have I'm not going to change my opinions for you or anybody else. If you don't like don't read it.

[thetorch]

Not much of a surprise.

Central dominated late as they had much more depth and they ran the statesmen into the ground going on a 19-0 run in the 4th quarter eventually winning by 20.

Pearson had 26, Mcnutt had a double double, Fischer dominated the baords and had several blocks. Hanlen had a pretty poor game for Webster, dunno if he got into double figures or not.

Be a shame that only one team can come out of the Sub North considering the Hawks and stars are the two best teams in their class.

[courtside]

>Hey man if you have something to say just say it.

>

>I watched a couple games and posted on my observations.

>That is all man. What exactly do you want?

>

>Am I not capable of having an opinion on players and teams

>just cuz it doesn't pass your muster or show some bias that

>you percieve. I don't really give a damn. Nobody is

>holding a gun to your head telling you to read my posts.

>I've been on this board a helluva lot longer than you have

>I'm not going to change my opinions for you or anybody else.

> If you don't like don't read it.

Your posts speak for themselves.

[courtside]

>Not much of a surprise.

>

>Central dominated late as they had much more depth and they

>ran the statesmen into the ground going on a 19-0 run in the

>4th quarter eventually winning by 20.

>

>Pearson had 26, Mcnutt had a double double, Fischer

>dominated the baords and had several blocks. Hanlen had a

>pretty poor game for Webster, dunno if he got into double

>figures or not.

>

>Be a shame that only one team can come out of the Sub North

>considering the Hawks and stars are the two best teams in

>their class.

And when St. Charles West beat Hazelwood Central by 20...you must have missed that game. or Troy, or DeSoto....etc...in the parity party.

your posts still speak for themselves....and so it goes....