Bay Area Billiken

Any suggestions? The A-10 seems a good spot for SLU at this point in the proceedings.

Welcome back Brown Indians. Do you come in peace this time? This poster always enjoys your visits to the Western Front.

Agreed. But the Football Big East refuses to go away.

http://www.ctpost.com/uconn/article/Source-Big-East-likely-to-expand-quickly-2211371.php

The Bonnies are an A-10 fixture, Box. They aren't going anywhere, up or down. They bemoan the loss of past rivalries with Villanova and Providence, but they did the same to their old rivals Canisius and Niagara of the MAAC. Really, the Bonnies belong in the MAAC, but those are forbidden letters in Olean. Get ready for a visit from Brown Indian.

The ND at Pitt game was on ABC. While I don't know if that was part of the Big East ESPN package, it may well have been.

The ND at Pitt game was on ABC.

Notre Dame brings its name, its brand, and its subway alumni to Big East basketball. And there is a deal in place in which ND plays a certain number, but not all, of the Big East teams in football, on a rotating basis. Note the strange appearance of South Florida in South Bend to start this football season. Syracuse, Pitt, and UConn have all played the Irish in various years in football.

Perhaps, but recall that SLU's last NCAA Tournament appearance in 2000 was via C-USA's automatic bid. At least the esteemed Digger Phelps was saying SLU was out if it didn't win that C-USA Championship Game. My opinion is that if the NCAA Automatic Bid is there, then that is a benefit to work within the framework of an existing league, as opposed to starting a whole new league. An automatic bid is not anywhere near the biggest criterion, however. I see it as a piece of the puzzle.

Reading these tea leaves, some observations: 1. Note that all the schools mentioned are not Catholic schools. Is that a foreshadowing of something on the horizon? I've never thought Charlotte was a particularly good fit in the A-10. Charlotte needs a place to put its new football team. George Washington and Boston University consider themselves as similar, akin to sister schools. 2. Assuming in the big picture that the Big East finally does implode (but I still don't see that happening in the foreseeable future), with GW in the CAA, that would open up Washington, D.C. for the A-10 to add Georgetown, which would be dragged kicking and screaming, but with nowhere better to go. 3. Sending Richmond to the CAA would be good for SLU in terms of placing elsewhere another potential and sometimes mentioned competitor. But Richmond wants no part of being in the same league with crosstown rival VCU. So Richmond to the Colonial probably will not happen as long as VCU is a Colonial member.

This is the latest diabolical way for the Big East to preserve its BCS status. If Boise State, now a top 5 BCS football team, goes into the Big East, then the Big East preserves its BCS status. It's the same solution as when TCU was to go to the Big East (now aborted), one time zone removed, except TCU would have gone in all sports. This is blatant geographical gerrymandering. But it is a solution that appears to work. This being said, I did read one Tweet of denial re the Big East and Boise State. A conference like the WAC is so desperate that it will take Boise State and Air Force in all other sports, allowing their football teams to go to the Big East. The profile of the Missouri Valley Conference would certainly be raised by having the United States Air Force Academy as a member school in all sports except football. Boise State is quite a study. That school used to be a junior college. The campus is hardly attractive, although Boise itself is a nice town.

In large measure you are speaking to the choir. Responding to a few of your points: UConn was said to be an original ACC target over Pitt, but Boston College blocked UConn. BC wants to be New England's team, and there are open old wounds with UConn from when BC went into the ACC. West Virginia does not fit the ACC's academic profile. It also does not bring with it a significant media market. Notre Dame continues to cling to its Independent status (and NBC TV money) in football. I don't believe this rumor of Villanova and St. John's to the ACC, and think it is far fetched. I'm just reporting what I read. The explanation is that the original ACC basketball schools don't want to give up their home and homes. Expanding this way provides a way without further diluting ACC football. And it gets the ACC into New York City and Philadelphia, the two large media markets where the ACC is not currently. It would probably lead to the end of the basketball side of the Big East, as originally conceived. After years of searching for something that may never happen, I feel like I personally cracked the Rubick's Cube late last night re why the Big East marriage of football and basketball school continues to exist. (See the other thread started by Metz re Air Force.) That HoyaSaxa piece notes the big difference in money going to the Big East non-football schools (as long as they have football schools in the Big East) and the money going to the A-10 schools. Money and BCS preservation is the reason that the Big East is going to all lengths, to the geographical absurd, to preserve itself, and why (money) the non-football schools, the Catholic Big East, have acquiesced. I agree with what SLU needs to do and the importance of all this for the University as a whole. Quite frankly, I think SLU needs to get its program back ahead of Butler and on even par with Xavier. I don't think the Big East has lived its 9th life, perhaps not even its 7th or 8th.

Understood. However, for decades SLU was a highly ranked team that took on all comers and defeated many of them. What has happened to the SLU Soccer Program?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/bball.htm#case Comment: Look at the difference in those TV dollar figures between the Big East and A-10. It's water over the dam now, but the decline in the SLU Basketball program between the last NCAA Tournament appearance in 2000 and Marquette and DePaul getting in the Big East in 2005, with SLU basically being parked in the A-10, comes home to roost. With Big East football steadfastly refusing to go away, there appears to be no real end in near sight to this situation. Georgetown and Villanova appear to want no part of what they are calling the CYO. I've wondered why the Big East Basketball schools have continued to acquiesce in the continued and what should be embarrassing propping up of Big East Football, to the point now of the geographically absurd. As seen by the above link, Georgetown interests have enlightened this Billiken. It all comes down to the almighty buck, and now we see the explanation. Big East basketball with football schools in the league makes significantly more TV money for the basketball schools than would be expected if they were out on their own in this CYO League. The only course for SLU at this point is to improve the basketball program. Even then, as long as there is Big East football, that (SLU improvement) may not be good enough for SLU to reach where the consensus of this board would seem to hope for SLU to land. SLU needs to improve the program, wait all this out in the A-10, and make a strong push if its chance ever comes.

2-7-1, 0-2 in A-10. Explanation?

The New Big East Conference- as in east of Reno!

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/extras/colleges_blog/2011/10/big_east_ready.html The Big East continues to cling to survival.

Yes, me too. My biggest issue with Butler is that based upon what I've read on Big East boards, Butler seems to be serious competition for SLU to get in an expanded Basketball Big East. My concern is Butler getting picked for a 10th and final spot over SLU, or being picked as one of 4 expansion teams for a 12 team league, and not SLU. That's where I would hope our fellow Catholic schools like Marquette, Notre Dame, et al., would go to bat for SLU. But there seems to be no public indication of that. We don't know what is being discussed behind closed doors and in ivory towers. But I keep seeing Xavier and Butler being mentioned on Big East school message boards.

Easy reference. Most of the schools would be Catholic schools like the West Coast Conference out here (7 Catholic schools, Pepperdine, and now BYU). Except our proposed league would be stronger than the WCC, which itself is an underrated league and getting stronger. Villanova supporters are calling this proposed league the CYO. What it really would is a league of good basketball schools without D-1 FBS football teams, except Notre Dame, an Independent in football. This being said, we do need to somehow differentiate SLU from Butler, whose stock has risen dramatically.

After further review, our discussion this morning may be moot, not ripe, or both. http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19073868 It appears the Big East has not lived its 9th life.

Another thing- who does the picking? Wouldn't it be something if SLU drove the truck, made the picks, served as the instigator, the leader? It happened almost 4 decades ago when SLU left the Missouri Valley for the new Metro. But to lead, you have to have someone to lead. And I don't think there is sentiment for a new league all together. Thus, SLU has to be positioned as a worthy expansion candidate IMO.

I know, but I think that's what is going to happen, assuming it happens, as in the schism of the Big East finally occurs. If St. John's stays in the Catholic Big East, then the Catholic Big East inherits Madison Square Garden for the Big East Tournament and the Big East name itself. Staying in the existing Big East with enough continuous members also keeps the NCAA Tournament automatic bid. I don't think the schools that are being called Notre Dame's "dwarfs" are going to leave Notre Dame, as long as ND is in the Big East, and that especially applies to DePaul and Marquette. Rumors are linking Villanova and St. John's with the ACC, which I still think is far fetched, but there is some merit to that when you read the explanation. Georgetown has few real choices if Maryland blocks it from the ACC. Providence and Seton Hall have nowhere up the food chain to go. Point- I think what's left in the Catholic Big East will try to stay together, and in the Big East. Then the Big East would expand with basketball schools. That's where SLU, hopefully, enters the picture.

The most probable scenario for this Basketball League, whether or not Catholic, is that it begins within the brand of the Big East. That means Providence and Seton Hall are grandfathered in. They are not going to be expelled. DePaul and Marquette are also grandfathered in at this point. DePaul brings the #3 Chicago TV market. It does have a following in the 8,000-10,000 range for important games, and would draw more if it had a better team. As I posted in another post with the explanation, there are actually rumors of Villanova and St. John's going to the ACC. That would really mess up the apple cart. Villanova supporters want no part of this Catholic league. That's where the CYO moniker for this league was seen. And even more disturbing was a Georgetown poster's reference to this proposed league as a Catholic ghetto league. I found that quite offensive, as it raises the old specter of discrimination against Catholics. The claim on the Georgetown board is that Georgetown does not want to be associated with such a league. With these types of comments, and with those coming from Marquette, such remind of the old adage of with friends like this, who needs enemies? In any event, without real football, with a football team that Fordham routinely defeats, and being blocked from the ACC by Maryland, Georgetown, irrespective of its lofty academic ranking, may not be in a position to be making demands, and may find itself as more of a beggar than a chooser. Imagine that, but that is how powerful college football is these days. Irrespective of what Georgetown, Villanova, and even Marquette want, the best thing for SLU is getting in this proposed Catholic, or at least largely Catholic, Basketball League. What Dayton has is geography, as in 300 miles closer to the East Coast than is St. Louis. It is amazing how people Back East think St. Louis, being West of the Mississippi (in SLU's case by 3 miles) is so far away. Dan Ceasar in the STL Post-Dispatch noted that St. Louis is the 21st largest TV market. So SLU has that over Dayton, hands down. Creighton in Omaha is farther West, and Omaha is smaller than St. Louis. Butler is not a Catholic school, if that has any bearing at all on these decisions.

Only in basketball and media market size, certainly not as a University. And in basketball, DePaul has been a Big East doormat like Seton Hall, which itself is grandfathered in the Big East.

Making the NCAA Tournament may not be the dominant factor, but it is the only way at this point to change the outside perception of the SLU basketball program as not being worthy. SLU must make this cut. This is more than just basketball or sports. It permeates the University as a whole, provides the opportunity and perhaps last chance for the forseeable future to be rightly associated with Notre Dame and Georgetown, the two highest ranked Catholic universities. Now I fear this is again happening too fast. If Mizzou goes to the SEC, as expected, the dominoes may really start falling quickly. We can only hope that the alma mater is aware and positioned as best it can be, accordingly. In general, SLU seems to be in, as one of the last if not the very last in, in a 12 team Catholic League, and regrettably out right now in a 10 team league. SLU's competition is listed in various circles as Xavier (considered a lock in either expansion scenario, that is unless Cincinnati is still in the Big East), Butler (which begs the question of how Butler can be included over SLU in a "Catholic" League), Dayton, St. Joe's (possibly blocked by Villanova, but see below), and Creighton. There were actually rumors yesterday of Villanova and St. John's going to the ACC in all sports except football. That seems far fetched, but there is said to be concern among the first ACC 8 about losing home and homes in basketball. Putting the second 8 in their own ACC division, with 7 of the 8 being former or current Big East schools, is seen as a solution. And getting Villanova and St. John's would put the ACC in all major media markets on the East Coast. Georgetown's ACC chances are believed to be blocked by Maryland.