courtside

>Ok--you insulted me enough that I am back--at least to some >extent. you are right about one thing, as opposed to most of >the negative people on this board I never gave up when faced >with adversity and I have seen a lot of it over the years. I >was not quitting on the team or the coach--I was refusing to >participate in the never ending spriral of negativity that >will undoubtedly occur. I want to challange every person who >claims to be a Billiken fan--a real fan--to tell me what >good it does for the school and the program for fans to post >outrageous things on a message board which if read by >recruits would convince them never to come to SLU. How can >that be a good thing even if we are down and hurting. > >The post from TAJ79 was an outrage. For any Billiken fan to >suggest to a player that he should go to another school on a >public website where that player or his family may see it is >a ridiculous and spiteful thing to do. You claim to support >the program yet you try to hurt the only thing that will >make us better-- trying to attract better recruits. That >sort of negativity is the worst kind of destructive. You obviously underestimate these young men and their families. Not condoning any type of comments...but first, this board is one of the tamest I have seen in college sports compared to others. 2nd, stop babying people...college hoops, major d-1 is big time,...or as you even put in your posts, a business....finally we agree on something. EVERY message board in America is negative when the team doesn't win. I don't know how many times on this board you have posted something in response to me or vice versa then when I actually post something you can't back up....you run away. Recruiting and $$ pointing out how other tougher academic schools are winning with less money. One of many examples...how can that be? 5 recruiting classes, 3 hits. And 6th class looks bleak. And during that time, the role players aren't even serviceable in some classes. Combine this with offensively challenged teams, inability to make enough in game adjustments. People on the board are not only concerned with recruiting, a HUGE aspect of the job, but unlike you may are not sure Brad is a good enough bench or practice coach either. I will be the first to point out it takes many coaches a few years to build something...many coaches...but signs as you go...are people seeing enough from the coaching standpoint, on and off the floor from Brad to be satisfied. It appears 50/50 at best to most people, & with what looks like two missed classes in a row, he MUST get at least 2 high major players in 08 class, assuming he doesn't get a miracle juco for next year. I went to the trouble to point out before...for a program like SLU...if you miss two years in a row on a high major player...even just one...it is a killer...what do I mean by high major player? TL, KL quality. Need continuity in recruiting, at least every other year. Don't need a million stars, etc..but gotta have one high major every other year, min. or you look at years of NIT at best. Even if Brad hits in 08 class, say SLU misses NCAA this year...those Frosh, at least TWO have to come in and play right away like TL and KL...while hoping the others from this year are decent role players by then...then TL and KL graduate, and it is NIT for 1-2 years hoping to get a high major recruit in those years to turn it into NCAA more than one year in a row. Let me be the first to say, not advocating firing of Brad. It seems you just want to make the NCAA's once, people on the board want more than that....so unless a superstar juco comes for next year, those 08 kiids better rock. More than one. The 2nd tier kids he is getting are not serviceable enough. Here's a tip, if you want undersized kids, like the Valley, they need to be shooters and athletic, must be athletic, with good enough feet, and can shoot.

I will take a crack at the original poster's comments. 9 schools you mentioned...3 of which are BSC schools with long traditions of hoops for decades.(DePaul, Providence, Marquette)are not mid-major schools Western KY, I hope Darrin Horn gets his first NCAA bid this year, great teams his first 3 yrs, but its a one bid league, and you don't want that kind of league...again, Ralph Willard, Dennis Felton before him...playing weak conference...SLU must shoot higher than this or settle for one bid league. Horn is very likeable, and WKU grad, and scheduled big time teams out of conference this year. Hope gets gets it this year. Xavier and Gonzaga, been doing it for decades, Few has been at Gonzaga 18 years, Xavier has had Gillen, Prosser assisted him 8 yrs, Prosser, now Miller who has been everyhere...a lot of these guys coincidentally have all been at Providence College btw. (Gillen, Rick Barnes, Pitino, &I believe Miller, Felton) etc...continuity with program...and both were one bid leagues for many years. SIUC...not as much success...but doing it more recently with the coaching continuity of Weber, Painter, Lowery...etc..Butler, again, ...Matta, Lickliter been there two different stints, and Butler plays in weaker one bid league. Creighton? Took Altman 5 yrs to dance...and a lot of those early Valley year invites for him were win conference tourney to get in...this would be more of the past 10 year thing you have suggested...and SIUC....the others are very different places than SLU.

>The only way that we will get better is if we get our >recruiting going at high speed and you--a supposed fan--are >posting on a supposed Billiken fan website that a recruit >should not go to SLU. Nothing--and I mean nothing--can hurt >the program more than this sort of outrageous comment. > >The fact is that if powell is as good as advertised then SLU >would be perfect for him because he could earn a starting >position and play for 2 years with two local star players >and help open the excellent new arena. You are nothing but a >jerk! That is only half correct. Recruiting definitely needs major improvement. But coaching needs improving too. You act as if the coaching itself is not in question, and have never once questioned Soderberg's coaching. You would be the only one in the history of this board to do that. And many wonder if and when SLU does get all of these improved recruits and athletes etc...would BS be able to coach them. He admittedly said he reluctantly would push the ball more this year because he had better players...key word reluctantly. Once the recruiting level increases, then head to head how someone coaches during a game and has his kids prepared really gets interesting.

>since I live in Springfield and you know I'll watch Vashon. >Quite frankly, I'm not optimistic because they drew a tough >1st round opponent from New York. I believe that New York >team is a three-time champion. They should beat the NY team(ST. Raymond's, Bronx)...though won't be walk in park, they will be expected to win, if they don't the consolation bracket is cupcake city...it is 2nd and third game of main draw as big challenges...vs FL, and then OR.....teams with size and balance, etc...something they don't usally face. I'd be disappointed if the V lost in first game and couldn't lace em up with at least one of these two. Willard, Glendale, Rufus King....not strong, and will lose early.

This is more of the kind of thread I prefer...analyzing, breaking it down and how to fix. Ok...last night...pts off turnovers mentioned, a good important point,...because SLU does not get enough pts off of turnovers or obviously in transition. To do that every game...margin of error for victory is slim. More athletic teams, who score in transistion with better ball handlers don't ahve to be as good in half court every single night. FT's...Duquesne with twice as many attempts as SLU...IV with ZERO, repeat ZERO FT attempts. No comment necessary there. and KL??? If you are hurting, which some say not anymore, just a confidence thing coming back from it and some say hurting...either way...TWO FT attempts...gotta find another way to get points if you aren't knkcing down 3's... Turnovers...17, too many. And just like Ole Miss, just like Houston etc...SLU struggles with pressure. SLU does not have enough ball handlers. Everyone said oh with KL, TL, no worries...you cannot just stick anybody back thre like in football QB, need a leader, a ball handler, and someone who creates for himself and others....or these things will continue against more athletic and better teams....and scarily, some of these teams are not good. Shooting...3 pt shooting was 23%....Anemic. For season...IV in my opinion has struggled most of season, and has here and there put up nice games...based on expectations, not good enough. Doesn't bring it every night and every possession...when he does, he is fine. And he gets little substitution help. LM is an undersized role player, which is fine but not as 2nd or 3rd option. DP, just isn't very good at much of anything. I know people like him, but in evaluation, in his 3rd season. When one of the big three struggles, SLU is in for tight games, when two struggle, they are going to lose, period. I would argue that Ole Miss got too tentative in 2nd half vs SLU...Credit SLU for their come back, but it sure helped...and as we know not a top SEC team yet under first year coach. Houston, again, inexperienced, building for future...and not an elite team...was impatient and frankly made horrible decisions down stretch on road. A middle tier or better SEC team wins, and so does a team a little better than struggling Houston. IMO, a point guard, and an athletic wing or inside player to help IV and SLU would be winning by bigger margins. They lack both, and obviously have a thin thin bench. They are close with 3 good players, and an undersized LM...but are offensively challenged in half court sets, and are not getting enough easy transistion baskets...Gotta have those in games to keep you in them or create separation. SLU has no point guard this year, next year so far, and most teams have two. SLU needs better athletes too. They can easily still do well in conference and make a run...thin bench, lack of adjustments, lack of coach's willingness to make changes, and lack of his ability to best utilize his players or exploit the other team's weaknesses at times...make it all challenging...and margin for error slim. This is the year, do not kid yourselves, SLU will not be better next season than this season, unless a mircale showed up in Spring signing. And if he cannot get two high quality players in 08 class, KL, TL time will be up, and that would be just an ugly sight wouldn't it?

check your pm's

As your buddy Nate told you at the preps board...people want to see how Powell does with people at or near his size, at his position. Your post left out the part that Miller had 20 points and is 6'0 to 6'1 and plays point guard. Your post is misleading to people who do not know.

Nobody likes to hurt kids' feelings...but if you want to be in that top 25-30 mix, you gotta do better than DP and LM. I know LM has been a nice role playing find or it would be even worse. But in order to get to the next level, a bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic player in that spot is needed to beat the better teams that SLU can't beat. And DP wouldn't make the roster at most of said schools. SLU has 3 good players, an undersized role player that can get you production against lesser and like teams, nothing more, and an undersized two guard who can't shoot, create for himself or others, or finish a break or make good decisions on a break. His clame to fame is guarding Ahearn in one game. And you mentioned the bench. It isn't rocket science, SLU has not had 3 good players on a team before under BS...IV has been absent in many games this season, downig that list to two good players a lot of times. It is very tough to win without a point guard...but everyone pulls the Mike Martz for point guard talk...shoot we have two good guards, don't need one, we'll fix it. Hmm....17 turnovers vs Duquesne, hmmm terrible against pressure from Ole Miss, Houston, etc...and these aren't good clubs. A point guard not only helps with pressure and eliminating turnovers, but runs the offense, and is a leader on the team. Obviously veteran reserve players for short minutes are so bad they don't play. If they could, they would...Husak etc...are terrible...JJ, DB, SLU has tiny margin for error to win games, and BS knows this and knows his butt is on the line, and his choice, which I actually don't mind, is to not play these players because they are not good enough even in short time to help the team or maintain status quo. AK, DM, are not high enough level recruits to be anything more than 2 year contributors as one dimensional role players. They are better than past bench players...look at LM...he didn't have much to contribute his first two seasons, and these two are no better than him, or they would be playing. You do not need a KL, TL every year....but you need to bring in a kid at or near their level every other year to compete at higher level. If SLU had a point guard and serviceable bench, they would be pretty good, pretty solid. And I haven't even gotten into coaching.

Difficult to keep up with all of the incorrect spellings on that site. Ole Miss was called a surprise win over an SEC power. Hmm this is the coach's first season because of the failures of the previous one. I thin Andy Kennedy has a chance to be competitve in a few years, but that was a scheduled home win game. A loss to Ole Miss at home was not expected, nor was one to Houston, the two squeaker games.

>Highland basktball shootout, my bad. I got confused, so >what. They play a lot of high profile tournaments and >classics. He outplayed Mo Miller, the number 1 player in >Tennessee and that's the important part. Dude, stop it...Maurice Miller, is a 6'0 to 6'1 at most point guard.(Georgia Tech) Perhaps we can all make a new rule that says if Powell comes to SLU he can post up 6'0 guards??? Now, if two players of similar size that play the same position guard each other...now that might be worth passing interest. Who knows maybe he'll get to play against kids his size next week at Bass Pro? After opening with St. Raymond's(who lost Fri to Christ the King, and before that St. Benedicts)..their first round matchup, they move on to better teams, with a size, albeit on the perimeter. Then the V will get Lake Howelll Florida, who at least has a little size. Florida recruit Chandler Parsons is in that 6'7, 6'8 range, long and lean, but his game is like Mike Miller, Matt Bonner,....very tall point guard, or wing, faces basket. They do also have another point guard, Nick Calathes, another Florida recruit. If the V can get past them, they get S Medford Oregon and Duke recruit Kyle Singler, a wing in typical Duke mode, tall, more of a mid-range deeper jump shooter, and growing...depending on opinions 6'8-6'10. The rest of the teams aren't strong, Glendale, Rufus King...Raleigh Egypt is in it again, and has easy first game.

where to?

And thre are other winning basketball schools with strong academics as well....Georgetwon has smaller recruiting budget, Creighton's is similar, B.C. and Gonzaga have smaller hoops budgets...etc... SLU needs more of an admin commitment to winning ball, and until then they need a coach good enough to overcome those shortcomings.

not at game? not in Stl anymore?

M.A. I would hope that you would take the time to dig a little deeper past the trolls and deep-enders and discuss intelligently with some of the the others. In case you do leave, let me give you my response. Nobody more than me has cried and preached for more floor general guards, letting Lisch play two guard and fill in at point once in while, and letting Liddell play the wing. It is my opinion SLU needs two point guards. Others have already disagreed and will again. Also...in order to win in college basketball today, you need to have a good recruiting class every other year...by that I mean a couple of high major recruits. TL and KL was a great class, that is two major contributors, and top level players(I do not expect that every year, but if two years later you don't get even one more high major, it is a problem)...IV has progressed into a high major, and that is 3 players in 3 years, not bad...concern is current Frosh class has zero high level like the above, and next year not likely either. Even the role players are not enough like LM, solid role player recruits which you must get especially in a year without high major...You cannot come up empty two years in a row or more and win. No, you don't need high majors every year, but need ONE every other year, or two in a class etc..If you lay an egg two years in a row or more, won't compete at high level...SLU has 3 in 3 years, and it is why they have a chance to be better, but the role player/solid players tht aren't superstars recruiting needs improvement, and, SLU is due for one high major recruit for next season in order to win at higher level. And still, with that, coaching those kids is the other factor. Coaching is obviously another aspect of the game, preparation, adjustments in game, etc...developing players. SLU still has an opportunity to right its ship...the key games are Xavier, Dayton etc..not an encouraging conference start but certainly not over yet. In my other posts, I have tried to point out that it is okay for people to want more, a winner, even though the University lacks that commitment. Yes, it is tougher, but can be done and has been done to a higher success than SLU in other places also lacking admin commitment. The new facilities will help with recruiting but more is needed, and while it is not easy, someone can win more at SLU under the circumstances, and hopefully then they demand more from the school and get it. I definitely think it will take someone who wins with little help first, then pushing for the support. For this year, margin for error is not great anymore...RPI won't be good, so gotta win the conference, or conference tourney to have a chance and that is what most thought anyway. It is possible to right the ship, as it is early in conference play, though people are obviously a little concerned that the one bd loss wasn't just a blip, now it is another at home. We shall see.

David, According to TT's blog, Lisch is fine.

I think it is $9 $12 $15 $25...I need the complete numbers. People will come if SLU wins or plays a superstar opponent. The idea or goal is to get them to come all the time. Other factors to consider: I am probably alone in this, but other factors help. Put on the objectivity cap here...SLU home games are dull and boring, even the close ones. Sure, people get excited and enjoy close thrillers with Ole Miss, MSU, etc...late in the game. But the loudest cheers were for free t-shirts. So what is my point? The short or long term goal, etc...needs to be to make SLU home games a not to be missed event...key word being event. It is entertaining all the way around...everything is professional done, no stone unturned from start to finish. This requires stronger marketing to draw in fans, to appeal to a younger demographic...as in 20,30 something alums and students. I hope in the new building student attendance increases big time, and others get left out and have to *****. Sure older people pay the bucks to support the school, but really it is highly wealthy boosters...and would like to see the game itself catered more to the students. Not to blue hairs and little kids. This isn't going to happen overnight...and at many other schools the coach has a lot of input and say...BS doesn't involve himself with that which is not my preference, but fine. That means a professional event marketing staff needs to be consulted, other schools need to be consulted. As for tix cost...well...parking is cheap at or near the Arena, tix...? Tough to sell $25 tix, family of four, or to young adults...family of four will discuss costs, and young adults will say game atmosphere is boring. The STL Rams have terrible marketing and terrible game day event presentation. It matters. If it were a great event, it would create more buzz. Winning cures a lot...but getting people to those random games...gotta make much more of an effort. It all starts with deals...and progresses with winning a lot, so the ticket is more of a hot commodity. A fundamental effort has to be made to change the demographic of fans. Balance. I will be old some day and I understand respecting blue hairs....but that can be balanced with many more students, and many more young alum fans. People say, why don't more students go? What else are they doing ...etc...? Well...they have spoken...they have decided whatever else, anything else is more interesting or fun. Logistics? The shuttle system to games from what I have heard is embarrassing and worse than high school. Everything all around reeks of mom and pop operation. of cutting corners. It takes die hards to cough up $25 bucks a night for every game...and perhaps a more sane non-board memeber would be shaling their head. There needs to be more entertainment value on and off the floor. Winning and first rate event....SLU has had neither. Everything starts with students. That is where they need to go first. Just wait til SLU wins a couple of years and parking shoots up $10....I couldn't imagine...lol.

It took Liddell and Lisch, two much more highly touted players more than half a season to adjust to the pace, strength, and mental grind of college ball. I would definitely have low expectations his first year if he comes, based on my observations. He can come off the bench, get some minutes and experience etc..but he isn't big enough, strong enough, or has the footwork to be given the keys to the car coming in. If he were a great athlete that would be different.

>or maybe they arent playing because like most freshmen they >are just freshmen learning. the impact and time that lisch >and liddell gave last year is not the norm for freshmen. > >the hill bros and washington would be sitting right >alongside maguire and muse would be sitting with dixon and >obi. Agreed, however...thast impact is a lot more the norm on good/better/top 25 teams....having 1-2 Frosh who can get significant time their first season. It isn't the norm at SLU...or for less talented or less recruited players. It all depends on what a team has coming back....if you get a top 100-150 kid on a veteran good team, they will play less, if they come in to a loaded deep veterean team....say Pruitt at Illinois on deep strong teams his first couple of years. He was highly talented high school player, highly recruited...big men a little longer to develop...and I for one am not surprised at his progress. So, it all depends. The agreed thing is to try and recruit TL, KL caliber players at different positions more often, or it will be tougher to win.

Kind of like maybe winning a men's and women's national title in basketball. Kind of like winning a national championship in men's soccer and a couple in women's field hockey Kind of like drastically improving the men's football team...and playing their final game for BCS conference title this year. ...Obviously these are just some of Debbie Yow's accomplishments at Maryland. Levick gets to put new Arena on resume...and now playing in weaker athletic conference, gets to tell stories of improving non-revenue sports...women's volleyball and women's soccer winning league titles because the league is not as strong, but still mark it down as NCAA's baby...baseball etc....she is racking up resume material left and right....if only that darn hoops team makes the NCAA's too...that'd be like icing on top of the resume. Don't kid yourself, she is going where they play football and spend money, going to a bigger conference....all when the opportunity presents itself.

I don't have a problem with that...but outside of the SLU community ...St. Louis is a good ole boy yee haw town, much to my dismay...but that is the reality....and Spoon is the classic good ole boy....so go ANYWHERE outside of Billiken nation in the area and people will say they love Spoon,...inside Billikenation...you will get mixed opinions. I have no problem with Spoon and his contributions after the work Grawer did.

I just think it is two things. People here saw how hard Grawer worked with not the same people. He to many did it with less. As for disdain for Spoon, ...I don't..but again, many see Spoon as someone who could have kept SLU there are higher and clearly didn't work hard enough to do it. This is St. Louis, and people like two things: Hard workers, and good ole boys who work hard. Spoon had them for a while...but came across to many as losing the hard worker part. I definitely believe Spoon sure knew how to sell better than any of the other coaches except Romar. Romar had a tougher challenge because he wasn't a good old boy in the Lou, but he knows how to sell.

Their class for next year is solid, 3 signees...couple of tall downstaters...Cole etc..thin, good shooters, need to fill out...and St. Joes' point guard. Very solid, very good, but nothing spectacular top 25 level class or anything. Gordon, Turner, Rose, etc..all chose out of state. I am sure Weber will coach em up. He is finding out just how tough the recruiting battle can be for the superstars, something Self does well. There is so much talent in state for him though...the next tier is solid.

From what I have heard, I wouldn't hold my breath on Levick staying very long. Age? She isn't very old. Disagree on DD. His biggest problem was not being able to anticipate the early departures of star players for professional ranks, and thus having a 1-2 year adjustment, after being loaded with deep great teams. Losing on road mutiple times in NCAA quarterfinals to excellent teams is pretty good. He lost one "important" game he should have won...where the team dominated Northwestern for 90 minutes and lost 1-0 on a once in a lifetime goal.(admitted by the kid who scored). Since his ability to land superstar recruits first few years...his recruiting is back to solid but not spectacular.(a lot of other places are solid too). The two biggest problems for SLU past few years has been inability to find 1-2 guys who can finish...he had those players and they left early to for pro ranks. And, I haven't been satisfied with the keeper position recruiting...guys haven't panned out since Hutton got hurt injured.

What matters are high quality wins, conference record, and bad losses. Like you said, what you wrote means nothing.

Were you at the game? Do you know who guarded whom..etc.... I can say I have seen ALL of the top St. Louis side teams play more than once...and I can safely say there is a ton of parity team-wise....10-15 teams could beat each other. Sure a few are slightly better than others, but easily could lose on a given night to the lower part of that group. Team-wise, no elite teams, would be surprised to see a St. Louis area team win state in large schools boys. Individually, KS gets his pts every game. Most are off of screens for 3 or pump fake jumpers. He is excellent FT shooter. Teams have to work to guard him...left alone, he makes the open shot. He definitely would need an adjustment...meaning it took TL KL more than half a season for people to understand that there is huge jump to college....KS would need more than that...he would NOT make a contribution his first season...and it may only be a two year contribution if ...if he can play at SLU. He does bring the ball up a lot...but that would be a problem with pressure. The nice thing is he is a junior and he is going to SLU or somewhere less, so there isn't any pressure on recruiting him.