courtside
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Posts posted by courtside
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Yes SLU is better this year. Some players are down statistically, and others up, etc...but the best players were thrown into the fire last year, as they should have been, and thus are better prepared in closer games this season. SLU is a better team. Not a ton better, but better.
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>It is pretty easy to assess our recruiting efforts over the
>past three years.
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>On a great team, Dwayne and Luke are very capable backups.
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>On a very good team, one of them is starting.
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>On a good team, both of them are starting.
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>On a good team with a very limited bench, they are both
>starting and seeing over 25 mpg.
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>With the A10 in a down cycle, we are a very good team, but
>we are also back to the Anthony Bonner era where we need to
>be the top dog in the conference to make the dance.
That is an interesting point you make...because the A10 is down, SLU is likely to dominate it, therefore declaring SLU a very good team. Why does it matter what the conference is or isn't to judge SLU's ability as a team in a season.
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>>it doesn't look like there is going to be any significant help from >the players he's bought in for this season.
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>So you are giving up on Horace Dixon, Adam Knollmeyer, and
>Dustin McGuire already? Look at Ian his freshman year.
>Give these kids a chance.
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>"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands
>up for others." - Ben
I agree completely and long time have tried to tell people ahead of time the huge adjustment form high school ball to college ball in any sport. ...no question...but, and there is a but...in order for SLU to stop being a sometimes NIT team at best, you have to have a couple of impact Frosh. Lisch and Liddell were not very good first half last year and people flew off of the handle. They then turned it around in conference play because they had experience in games, and because they were higher regarded recruits. It is very difficult to elevate your program ....when you have an NIT hopeful team in recent years...a very short bench...and kids still can't get time. It raises eyebrows. These kids could develop into very nice players for SLU...however...if the goal is to be better, you just can't do it with kids who don't get minutes of any kind early in their careers. It would be one thing if this were Illinois, or UNC etc...and teams re-load and their top guys go deep in NCAA's.....these kids can't get time on SLU. That is the concern.
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>The total isn't nearly as relevant as the difference in the
>average. 20 minutes is only 10% of the total minutes played
>and that is spread over seven players. It just is not
>athletically significant. You are an athlete. Think about
>it. 2 or 3 minutes isn't enough to make a difference. Of
>all the sports I have played and still play, some very
>actively, 2 or 3 minutes just doesn't materially impact my
>performance. Now, 20 minutes all on one player is
>meaningful, but not spread over multiple players.
>
>"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands
>up for others." - Ben
You are kidding me right? So in a crucial moment in the game, Justin Johnson kills a run with a turnover, not knowing where to be postitioned, and an ill-advised jump shot. Look at what players do in their minutes offensively, defensively and in transistion.
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>It is not a matter of hype or size--it is a matter of
>performance that makes the difference. Luke has played very
>well and deserves the credit--not the blame--for the fact
>that he is playing.
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>Cheese says it means we do not have a decent 4 and so
>recruiting has been terrible. I say it is because Luke is a
>real all around player who can do a lot of things that big
>strong 6' 8" guys cannot do. Sure, he cannot do what the pf
>for NC--Wright--can do but he played his butt off against
>him and did better than most players who play against him on
>tv who are the big strong types that are so hyped some of
>the posters here. I have watched NC play 5 times and Wright
>dominated a number of the so called power forwards. Wright
>is a lottery pick in the draft and a potential NBA all star.
>Yet he did not have a lights out game against Luke on the
>offensive end and his blocks, which were spectacular, would
>have come against our guards regardless of who we were
>playing. In fact, he was forced to come out of the paint to
>guard Luke so it opened Ian somewhat and kept a shot blocker
>away from some of our other shots.
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>Why won't people just give Luke credit for playing well and
>hard and effectively and forget all of this negative crap?
I think people go to games and root for the team, including LM. They appreciate hard work and efforts and committing to being a rold player when he was a scorer in high school. He isn't good enough to be a big scorer in college. Nobody is picking on him. But when you add up LM, DP, ....etc...it adds up to a bunch of guys trying hard that play because the team did not recruit better players to play those positions. Guys try hard at the other schools too. In an ideal world LM would come off of the bench for so spell minutes and that would be his role on the team. In a real ideal world he wouldn't be ont he team, because recruits would be better than him and he wouldn't find himself a spot.
If that kind of talk offends you, tough. This to my knowledge isn't the let's cheer the guys who try hard board. Then we would cheer most teams in the country. You have the right to not think objectively about the program, as others have the right to do so. Everybody has a different opinion. My opinion happens to be that college hoops is big business. If I wanted to just root for the kid who tried hard, I would only watch high school hoops. BS is a big boy, he understands that he is making the best of his situation getting LM to find some positive contributions to the team. Everyone roots for LM. Cheer cheer. But in objectively discussing the team based on state of the program, and people's goals of the program, it isn't going to be 100% positive because a guy tries hard.
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>if polk and lisch both shoot around 50% the game is totally
>different. great point.
How often exactly does that happen? Polk made a terrible 26% of 3's Frosh year, even worse 17% his Soph year, and is at 30% this year. Those are very poor stats. It means so far in 2.5 seasons, he can't shoot. So, what else does he do well?
Polk has improved his Free Throw Shooting, but he doesn't get to the line often. Polk has improved his assist to turnover ratio which was very bad his first two years, but he only averages 3 assists per game. He also lacks size defensively and his ability defensively depends on the quickness of the opponent. Outside of a nice game guarding Ahearn, what has he done to this point to be a starter? A bench player to provide quickness, though he doesn't lead enough breaks nor finish enough in transistion or in the half court. A few games here and there with some moments. And he is getting huge minutes of time. And recruiting isn't a problem?
Lisch at least shot 41%, respectable from 3 last year, down to 35% this year but has had a couple of bad games with hand.
So from 3....not great numbers, and from 2... it is reasonable to expect Lisch to play above his averages for a 50% game...he is in the 42-43% range from 2. Not from Polk.
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>All the article showed is that we have a tough guy limited
>athlete who is playing only because Brad has not been able
>to recruit anybody better. Cudos to Luke for playing over
>his head but you got to question Brad's recruiting results.
>I agree nice article but look past the feel good part and
>you see the painful truth.
Yes indeed.
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Knollmeyer played small schools in Missouri. Pruitt played with the big boys in Illinois. Pruitt was recruited by top notch hoops factories. Knollmeyer for example was not. He also with Carter played behind players on a national championship runner up Illinois team, not for SLU.
Yeah really comparing the same. Nope. And even with that, they still got in games that SLU kids aren't....despite SLU's desperate need for them.
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>soderberg history tells us it is the rare freshman that
>plays significant minutes. i am not condoning that, just
>pointing out those questioning why the likes of maguire and
>knollmeyer are not playing more.
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>and those of you ready to right players off because they are
>not contributing, i noticed watching the illini and mi$$ouri
>game on tuesday the vast improvement and minutes played by
>the illini inside players. both carter and pruitt have
>stepped up big time this year.
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>let it play out before writing a player off.
1) It takes longer for "bigs" to develop than wings or guards.
2) Carter played in 17 games as Frosh, Pruitt played in 21, Pruitt started every game as Soph, and so far every game as Junior, Carter played in almost every game as Soph.
We'll see if SLU's Frosh playing behind MUCH lesser talent, can get into that many games or near it as Frosh and make those kinds of contributions as Sophomores as Pruitt etc...did.
These are big time players at big time schools, Pruitt a Superstar recruit and Carter was Texas class 5 player of the year. And these guys were there for a National runner up team.
The quality of recruit for SLU needs to upgrade dramatically if SLU wants to be a consistent NCAA caliber team. SLU scheduled well, and will rack up wins in weak conference, to look even better with the record. SLU currently goes 6 deep, and has plenty of needs on the team that Frosh could try to help in small doses. I have no doubt that the Frosh might not be good enough and that is why they aren't playing. That is the problem. Recruit kids who can get you minutes here and there in a lot of games as newcomers.
Recruiting is a large aspect of the job.
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The one point the new poster may have unintentionally made was Marquette...not apples to apples because of SLU's lack of tradition...however..when Marquette was down and out, struggling..what did they do? They hired Lute Olson assistant Kevin O'Neill with huge recruiting reputation and he recruited his ass off without the facilities and budget at the time. A super recruiter...and team went to sweet 16. There is something to be said for that. Obviously since then it has become bigger time, big budget, big conference all that stuff....but that guy did it with nothing. Sure he's a jerk and didn't last long etc...but SLU needs a coach that recruit his bleep off to get them in the game, on the map...recruit against the schools with all of the advanatges....then have a little success then get the advantages at SLU that other schools have. You can coach your kids up and pull off upsets, sure...that is why they happen in NCAA tourney all the time....but in long season etc..gotta have better players to get there. Recruiting is a skill, not every coach has it.
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>soderberg history tells us it is the rare freshman that
>plays significant minutes. i am not condoning that, just
>pointing out those questioning why the likes of maguire and
>knollmeyer are not playing more.
>
>and those of you ready to right players off because they are
>not contributing, i noticed watching the illini and mi$$ouri
>game on tuesday the vast improvement and minutes played by
>the illini inside players. both carter and pruitt have
>stepped up big time this year.
>
>let it play out before writing a player off.
This isn't the first year Pruitt has had any minutes. Pruitt also for the record was a supestar high school player that had every top program in the country after him. It just so happened Illinois was pretty darn good in recent years. We are talking about getting ANY decent minutes on a team that goes 6 deep and hasn't been to NCAA's in many years. How is that comparable? "Significant" also is the key word. You should have 1-2 Frosh who contribute double digit minutes a game unless you are a one of country's top programs, or you are a great team that year loaded with returning players and Frosh have to sit more. In this situation, SLU isn't going to get anywhere with JJ and even DB to some extent. If DM is not good enough to play, redshirt him or recruit someone better. DM was the star recruit of his classs. That concerns some people, rightly so.
I was on this board vehemently defending Lisch and Liddell when frankly they were very bad first half of season last year at many times. They had proven ability, and were learning as they played. Some yahoos expected miracles and didn't understand the HUGE transition from high school ball to college ball in any sport. So I am well aware that it takes elite players to get a lot of minutes as Frosh. But one, we aren't talking many minutes, and two, these aren't good enough players.
DM will likely be fine at SLU...but he is likely two year contributor as a shooter. That is a nice role player on the team. The idea is to elevate recruiting. Recruiting is tough nasty business. Someone in this thread said they miss AD's spradic shooting. The idea is to elevate recruiting better than him and find a consistent shooter and other areas.
Freshman do get minutes at top 25 and near top 25 programs, and struggle, and get better as they go. Lisch and Liddell did it last year. Lisch and Liddell are good ball players, but they aren't "rare" in college hoops. Nice top 100 players. That means similar level kids are going to all the other good schools too. Getting two kids like that in x number of years isn't good enough.
SLU should make tourney and BS should keep job. But he isn't exactly on great ground as far as I am concerned, with his inability to sell the program, playing offensively challenged basketball, and so on....
If he is so disappointed in their play, recruit better athletes coach.(BS is a good guy and has always been kind to me personally, but with new arena coming, many years to build foundation...etc...now is time where his leash is shortened and expectations raised a little bit, and that is objective, and fair.)
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With so many similar threads I will jump in here for post-game. As for the game itself, SLU played a nice 12-15 or so minutes to start the game. They had an opportunity to finish the half better. SLU needs either super conditioned athletes who can play near 40 minutes, or serviceable subs who can spell for 5 minutes at a time. Not having either hurt them late in first half. Turnovers increased, shot selection poor, and no offense being run last 7 minutes of first half.
No shame in losing to UNC. They are big strong, athletic, deep and can shoot 3's, score in transition, or finish near the hoop. That's a lot of things.
IV played well. He got tired of course in second half. If he had another move or two, an up and under etc..to get his pts to more like a 20 per game instead of 13-14...would really help him offset his conditioning. Obviously he is remarkably improved over first two seasons, however to play at next level in NBA will need to really work on conditioning even a lot more. Played well. Would only say needs to keep working on passing out of the post with better decisions. My biggest beef was why SLU didn't get him the ball MORE. He didn't get enough touches imo.
BS's post game thoughts were interesting about being unhappy with the result. That is all fine and good but recruit better and more athletic players, period. It isn't complicated. If you recruit current Frosh, none of which can get any time in non-conference schedule to gain experience, then why are they recruited in first place. Red shirt a few if that is going to be the case. Certainly somebody has to be able to provide better minutes than Justin Johnson? And a youngster still has upside to improve. Conservative BS is playing not to lost NCAA bid. Not a big fan of that but understand his strategy. By that I mean, he will go 6 deep because other upperclassmen aren't good enough, and Frosh aren't ready yet. Answer to that is recruit better Frosh who can provide spell minutes for starters and gain valuable experience in games.
SLU has had trouble with Athletic aggressive defenses with pressure, Houston, UNC etc...because they do not have enough ball handlers/point guards. They need two.
SLU needs to get more athletic in recruiting because it is very very difficult to win consistently if you cannot get transition baskets. Even when SLU tried last night, albeit against a great team, they haven't finished all that well in transistion when getting the few opportunities they do against decent competition. Tenative, awkward finsihes. Can't win every night walking it up without attacking off of the makes or misses. Very slim margin for error.
Shooters. Can't rely on one kid to shoot the ball. SLU needs a couple of shooters too. People will talk about the Liddell and Polk improvements, etc..but they really aren't shooters. Liddell does a lot of other things well and has improved his shot when it is wide open against lesser competition. Polk was expectedly destroyed last night. Shows you what happens when he mathces up with equally or more quick players...blow by him on dribble and shoot right over him from deep. For Polk to be more of an asset, needs to be a shooter, he isn't, and needs to penetrate more and create more for others, and he isn't. ...against decent teams.
On the current team, Liddell is a nice slasher, wing, mid range game....so moving on to power forward...SLU doesn't have one as we know. Meyer tries hard, hustles etc...and can contribute against lesser teams in variety of ways...but he isn't a shooter, he vastly undersized in post....classic tweener...will get you a drive score once in a while, but not a lot more....will hustle for loose balls and rebounds, but his feet are slow, something very important needed in college ball, quick feet.(It is reason DM doesn't get time)
This is why it is so important to have back to back classes of two high quality recruits, or at very worst, every other season, to approach top 25, and the quality of athleticism needs to improve. SLU needs a lot of players to play much much faster. They play too slow...footwork etc...
As I said, no shame in losing to UNC, and would much rather see them schedule, and a loss than an easy ugly win over whomever else lesser. You learn a lot more about where you are as a current team and program. I didn't expect a win, expected better second half and more of a game though.
SLU scheduled well, and should dominate conference play. And unless they slip out of top two in conference, should get to NCAA tourney. But certainly not a lock if they fall out of top 2 and don't win conference tourney.
BS can talk all he wants about about being disappointed with this and that...etc...what he should be saying, is we need better players and better atheletes who can shoot the ball. I need to recruit better.
Two point guards, power forward or big who can shoot, are the most glaring needs on the teams. I am all for rooting for players and their improvement...but SLU is a team where Luke Meyer HAS to start because there is no one better. Polk HAS to start because there is no one better. That shouldn't be the case, and that is the goal in next few years...to recruit kids better than what you have. Force those tweeners and less talented kids to the bench to be your spell guys. SLU is taking slow plodding steps to do this.
People can respond by saying, well this is soooooo much better than last year or recent years...etc...and that is fine, and I agree, but you have to have goals and standards for the future, higher than where they are now. Getting a new facility and practice facility is great step in right direction. Winning the close ugly games as opposed to losing them is step in right dircetion. But I am not without concerns.
People can root for guys, cheer improvements, all of those great things, but SLU needs to recruit better players and atheltes who can shoot. Coach can be upset with his guys etc...all he wants....I argue they played very hard, ran out of gas due to short bench, and without the ability to score in transistion, are forced to try to score in half court against more athletic bigger players. It is a lot easier to try to defend those types of players than score with or against them if you don't have the horses. Perhaps Lisch could have made things more interesting with a better hand, but not dramatically so.
SLU doesn't have the hoops tradition. SLU doesn't get great student support for athletics.....among many other things...so it is up to the coach...a lot on the coach to go out and make it happen in recruiting, and it is tough business. But that is what SLU needs. Can BS recruit better athletes of different sizes and positions who can also shoot? That is the big question. We shall see.
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...was in town for game, and watched it later again on tv, no bias at all on tv.
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NBA superstar, former Wisconsin Badger star...and possibly their all-time leading scorer Michael Finley(gotta look that one up but I think so) played at Proviso East, as did current Boston Celtic head coach Doc Rivers, an NBA star.
DeAaron Williams was very highly recruited and touted. This current kid is playing behind Taylor, Flowers, Hughes, etc...No chance for time. Maybe he can get it elsewhere and be a nice player. And yes, not having Rob Jeter on staff anymore, a young African American role model probably didn't help him understand his situation more.
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Commuters would not be Lindell apt people. Commuters commute from home which is not on or near campus.
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I think Hansbrough is a very good player, robotic like work ethic. I wasn't comparing his athleticism to IV. I was saying in general imo he isn't a great or very good athlete, doesn't mean I don't think he isn't a very good college player. I think he is a smart player, who while shooting the ball very low inside for example, finds ways to not get his shot blocked. He needs to develop more low post moves to get to the next level...6'8 guys that just try to bull their way with strength and work ethic in college, need more than that in the NBA. He has soft touch around the rim, giving up at least a couple of inches to IV. I never compared him to IV. I don't think TH is a bad athlete, just not a great one. Sure he might simply out muscle IV inside, or even outhustle and dominate in the game...but he isn't going to be more successful because he is a much better athlete...imo. He works hard all the time to try to get better in as many areas as he can.
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I don't think TH is very athletic, and IV does have a few inches on him. Concerns are IV not being aggressive enough, and fit enough. TH is a work out machine, very fit, hard worker, but very athletic is not something that comes to mind when I think of him. He has a soft touch around the rim.
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I would go right at him on offense, attack him, and the glass. He is super aggressive and will be even more hyped up for the game than usual(if that is possible). IV has to be aggressive and use his length, especially on defense, block a shot or two early, use the size advantage...Hansbrough is only 6'8 but uses his strength and aggressiveness to play bigger. If you block his shot early he will get frustrated and try to bull his way through. He lacks a lot of great post moves and attacks glass with strength and determination and uses it for space to spot up for 10-12 footers. Aggressive atheltic bigs can give him trouble. Double him and swarm him early. He isn't very athletic. Great college player. Great opportunity for IV to show what he's got.
Watch some Josh Hytvelt tape from Gonzaga dominating him this year.
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>Feed him a left-over box lunch from the soccer final four
>tonight.
Very funny.
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Just yesterday or this week, you accused another poster of being obsessed with your posts. Hey Pot you're black.
Again, I don't have these problems with ANY other poster. You came after me because I didn't do cartwheels impressive enough for you in SLU's win over Tennessee-Martin or Missouri St. You can't accept any objective posting which is critical of SLU, or puts any other school or topic you don't light in a positive manner. I.E. you have hatred for Mizzou, Marquette, etc..and many other things. And you just couldn't get over the fact at the time that I said Dwyane Wade was better than Marque Perry when you said the opposite, and you also said Chris Braun was better than Steve Novak. I disagreed and you couldn't take it then nor now. SLU doesn't play Marquette or Missouri, or Cincy or some other teams you cannot stand....so I don't post about those topics. It is a SLU board, and I primarily post about SLU, or relevant topics. This is why it is so much easier to post regarding SLU soccer. Too many instigators on the basketball threads. If you honestly thought SLU had good spacing, ball movement and reversal on offense against MSU or lately, then that is fine, that is your opinion, it isn't mine.
I never posted on Mark McGwire. And I do enjoy posting with Alameda Bob, the kindest poster here, and Bay Area Billiken because they are good posters, who live in a great area and can keep me updated on some things out there. You don't have to read or respond to every thread or post.
If people don't hold your views, you instigate, and many times it leads to you pouting like a baby. And plenty of indivisual posters on here know who I am individually. SluSign guy who moderates this board, prefers his own anonymity as he has posted many times, as do many other posters. Often times I fly into town just to make to games.
You instigated this whole thing once again, because you didn't like my posts and accused me of being negative or not enjoying the wins over UTMartin or MSU enough. I commented where I disagreed, and you always have to take it to another level.
Unlike you I don't have to name call. I could very easily if you like, post on all the threads where you don't play well with others. Up until now, I have stayed out of those...but since you still do not see your ways, I would be happy to point them out.
Everyone on here has the right to post whatever they want regarding relevant topics, as long as they follow the rules. And, they should be able to do so without attacks, issue or problem.
You even asked in a thread about a week or two ago about Brad not enjoying recruiting and the game of it. I posted that he told me so. Didn't make a big deal of it and it isn't. You asked, I answered, and we can all move on. I wish he had a different answer frankly. Everyone on here roots for SLU, even the wackos. I even clap and stand and stomp my feet and yell and scream and everything, ...I just don't need to do it on a message board.
As Bob Knight once said, "We all graduate from the 2nd grade, some of us go on to bigger and better things."
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...And that is why you just had to post in response to my comments, just couldn't let it go. just couldn't resist.
You pick fights with anyone and everyone on the board. When it comes my way as it inevitably does with you and anyone on this board every so often...your bullying nonsense won't fly. If only I had a nickel for how many times you have bantered childlishly on this board, perhaps I'd buy the naming rights for the new SLU Arena and call it the "You have to agree with everything Roy says, and act like a middle-aged infantile" Dome. Maybe I will pay extra for dollar signs that light up every "s", and we will build it in Belleville, and we will retire Chris Braun's jersey and have it be the first in the ring of fame.
Funny reason we need a true rival
in Billikens.com Main Board
Posted
One way to build rivalries is to have two winning teams year in and year out in a conference. SLU and Xavier had a thing going when Gillen was there because both teams were competitive and in conference together. Marquette developed one with Louisville and Cincy based on good games and good fans support etc...I asked a guy about the Wisconsin/Marquette game before the game...and he said of course it is a huge rivalry but said people were just as excited for Pittsburgh? Pittsburgh? And response was yeah had some great, nasty physical games with them last year and the fans got into it etc on both ends...and it is becoming a hot thing....so if you get schools who win and play schools who win(every school wanted a rivalry with Cincy and Louisville for a while in the old conference because they won)....you can develop rivalries. Problem for now is that the A10 is not strong right now...give it a chance...and it won't matter if their ideology is the same or how far away the schools are from each other. That stuff won't matter as much. People get too wrapped up in that sometimes.There are other ways to build rivalries other than geogrpahy and same ideology.
And DePaul? beat KU and beat Cal by 30...and have a top 20 recruiting class for next year under Wainright.