kevinfootes
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Posts posted by kevinfootes
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i believe in hindsight the biggest factor to the billikens fabulous attendance in the 90's was no nfl team. the casual sports fan has x amount of sports dollars they want and need to spend. with no nfl team they fell into slu's lap. once the rams came to town, those dollars flew away relatively fast.
i do not believe we will ever draw that number of fans again. our 10k arena is perfect. and i believe we can indeed build to a nightly sellout with a number of fans froze out and the ability to draw a big night for "the big games". but the days of drawing 19k+ for the likes of alcorn state and austin peay like we did in 1995 are never going to be seen again.
i also hope we never agree to play those "big night" games at the eddydome or scottrade as well. while it indeed would be a great payday, it would take away our home court advantage as well.
roy, I disagree. IMO the biggest factor was the success of the program and the appeal of the conference. I think that the new Kiel was also a major factor in our attendance. The Blues were doing well and were a hot ticket. The Rams were already here is 1995. We were drawing well with Hughes 2 years after that, so I don't think that was the case. Having games against the likes of Memphis State, Louisville, Cincy and DePaul made us a worthwhile investment for season tickets in the eyes of more casual fans...not to mention walk up crowds.
I'm with you on the dome games. However, it was nice to see us beat Illinois that night. The fact that they lost the neutral location game to us means they'll probably never play us in St. Louis again.
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Susie Bonwich, class of '15. 05, send a Slunatics application my way.
And if anybody knows how to audition to be the Billiken, please let me know.Dr. William T. Bonwich, faculty, C&F->B&A, 1965-1994
Joe Bonwich, Honors B.A., 1979
Susie Bonwich, first class to see a Billikens Final Four appearance, 2015
Congrats to your family. AMDG.
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Packers-Jets in the super bowl. I hate the steelers.
What's your deal with the Steelers? I liked them when I was a kid. The Cardianls were my team, but VERY hard to watch.
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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.
Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.
Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.
Fordham has St. Johns, while we have SIUE.
IMO, in the big east coast cities there is a lot more interest in pro sports than in college sports. When you have a track record like Fordham is has to be tough. I think they drew 500 fans for their first game in the Meadowlands.
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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.
Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.
Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.
Fordham has St. Johns, while we have SIUE.
IMO, in the big east coast cities there is a lot more interest in pro sports than in college sports. When you have a track record like Fordham is has to be tough. I think they drew 500 fans for their first game in the Meadowlands.
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Everything points to Green Bay winning this game, which is almost enough to push me towards Chicago. But not quite.
I also don't see Pittsburgh losing this time around.
Going with home teams bucks the trend for these playoffs, but that's how I see it right now.
Green Bay vs. Pittsburgh would be an old-school super bowl.
Any thoughts?
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It just takes time. As more and more kids play, more and more kids will grow up being soccer fans. Most people my age (St. Louis is not the norm) did not grow up playing soccer and don't really understand the game so they don't like it. They didn't have a love of soccer passed on from their dad's. More kids play today than did 20 years ago and more adults today played as kids than they did 20 years before that ... it'll grow generation by generation.
Soccer is also a game you have to really understand to enjoy. There isn't a lot of scoring so if you don't understand the game and the excitement that comes from the chance and the build up you probably won't get it. Are there boring soccer games? Of course, just as there are boring football, baseball, and basketball games. However, if you really understand the game a 0-0 game is frequently very exciting as one goal is all it takes. Every run up the wing, every free kick from within 40 yards, every through ball, can be the difference, the winner. The shootout imo isn't a good way to solve a tie, but hell is sudden death in the NFL? You drive 40 yards and kick a field goal and thats it?
What I don't get is why non soccer fans seem to feel so threatened by the sport that they constantly have to make negative comments. You get it from media who don't know the game and from idiots like MB73 on messgage boards. It don't get why. I don't like Star Trek, but I've never felt an urge to find a Star Trek message board and degrade it.
Skip, soccer has a long way to go, but I agree that it will continue to improve in popularity. No sport has ever started out with immense popularity. I think the expectations for MLS were a little ambitious at its inception, but they have corrected a lot of that over the years. The Jim Rome-esque "soccer sucks" types are pretty silly IMO.
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Kevin.
You started this thread to try to support your flawed opinion that soccer lacks popularity in the U.S.
Your support for that opinion is the lack of success of a local womens professional soccer team and the lack of local success of a minor league men's soccer team.
A+B does not equal Z.
You try to compare these and other leagues to top level division leagues of other sports as well.
You ignore any and all facts that don't support your flawed theory.
When your flawed positions becomes exposed, repeatedly, you get riled up ad try to belittle others that do not support your flawed position. Repeat cycle. Groundhog day.
There are easier and more long lasting ways to gain self-esteem.
I was simply quoting the article that I posted. If you have a problem, take it up with the author. The article was about failed soccer teams in St. Louis. There has been a long history of that over the past 35 years or so. That is a fact you simply can't refute. In fact, you've cowered away from addressing it. You are the one making comparisons to the EPL and Continental Basketball Association, etc. I didn't do that in this thread. I simple answered a question that clock tower had about MLS. Talk about groundhog day. You can't pay attention whatsoever.
To your point in this post. Soccer does lack popularity in terms of ratings. I don't see how you can dispute that. It may be slowly improving, but it's still not very good. You sound like the girl who thinks she's very good looking but doesn't get asked out on many dates..."I am good looking and popular!!!!"
You are the one who absolutely contradicts himself throughout this thread. You have provided very little in the way of facts to support anything.
You set up rules for others to follow and don't follow them yourself. You compare to other sports and quote other threads, but no one else can!
My self esteem is quite good. Good enough, in fact, to let you have the last word on this if you like. It will be another load of garbage anyway.
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Looks like kevin is up to his old tricks again.
Hey ace, "who is Craig Upchurch?"
Here's another famous ace question: "who is Orlando Stewart?" I love it when ace enlightens us all with of his SLU basketball wisdom, especially since he knows so much of our history.
After more than 10 years on this board ace is still washing and waxing Mr. Miyagi's cars.
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12:52pm...this thread...you referenced posts from other threads critical of families not supporting women's soccer. I know you have short term memory loss and forgot your end of December posts, but...today?...really? 12:52pm.
So now we are back to lack of interest, poor ratings etc...ahh I see.
at 12:52 I was answering your question, after you strayed from the topic. Can't count that one either. I do appreciate how hard you're trying, though.
so you can reference other sports, other threads, etc. but no one else can. I get it. You did exactly what I led you to do...absolutely contradict yourself by doing exactly what you were whining about. You're just like a puppet. Stay on topic!
Hey, I like soccer quite a bit. I just have a more realistic view of it's popularity in this country. Sorry I stepped on your blue suede sambas.
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Hmm...
On December 23rd 2010 you discussed the lack of interest in soccer in the U.S.
On December 24th, 2010 you compared MLS to the top handful of American Professional sports leagues of other sports.
Am I getting closer?
The search button is your friend.
Wait a minute! Now you're wandering off to other threads! Which rules are you following here? Oh wait, you don't have to follow the rules you set up!
Of course I've posted about lack of interest in other threads. The lack of of interest is noted by poor ratings. That can't really be disputed.
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None of these teams played soccer at or near its highest levels.
One of these was a women's league and team. I don't think anyone here is shocked that it didn't make it.
Another was a minor league men's team. Again I don't think anyone here is shocked it didn't make it.
There is plenty of interest in soccer in the U.S. as well as in St. Louis. But wait how could that be because a minor league men's team and women pro team didn't make it?
Interest in soccer isn't the issue.
Hmmm, you are arguing against claims that I haven't made. Show me where I posted anything about interest in MLS in this thread, other than a lack of interest from investors to pay the expansion fee?
You should really stick to the topic and quit taing shots at statements that I haven't made. I DID post that it would be hard for a team to succeed financially based on the expansion fee, but that's a different point.
Keep trying. You're getting closer.
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You referenced a minor league men's professional soccer team a women's pro league in your first post in this thread that you started. You continued to be the only one in this thread to even reference women's soccer. You even later reference other threads and comments made in those threads by people about women's soccer.
A+B does not equal z.
St. Louis soccer is easy to figure out. The ownership group did not have enough money to ease the concerns of MLS in order to get a team. This is entirely separate from women's soccer or other minor leagues of soccer for men, etc...no cross-over, no correlations, no conclusions, separate.
Not quite. I posted a link to an article that mentioned both. Blame the author if you like, not me. Then you went on to talk about EPL, minor league basketball, etc. Quit jumping around so much. And, sorry, soccer can be a topic in and of itself. Soccer in St. Louis can be a topic. The failings of several teams over the past 35 years can be a topic as well. Again, clock tower brought up MLS, not me. I didn't compare MLS with any other leagues in my first two posts. That's your thing.
Nice try, though.
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I don't think you are seeing the forest through the trees.
Now you are referencing other threads. You've questioned the interest of soccer on this board. Yet your examples don't include soccer at its highest levels.
I'm having trouble following you in this thread, with all of your jumping between the EPL, Continental Basketball, major and minor league baseball, etc. I started this thread about St. Louis soccer and then answered a question about MLS from clock tower. Why don't you stick to the topics and quit jumping around?
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In your very first post of a thread I believe you started...you jump around from men's minor league soccer to women's soccer and somehow come to a conclusion about the difficulties of making money in the sport of soccer.
I'm saying you cannot put all soccer in one sentence. I'm not going to put independent minor league baseball in the St. Louis area with the Cardinals.
The English Premier League for one example is a $3 billion league. The issue was and continues to be that people want to see all sports at their highest levels. Start up lower level leagues evolve over time, good, bad, and indifferent.
If you want to compare a 14 year old second tier professional men's soccer league, compare it to a 14 year old second tier professional men's soccer league.
I realize we live in a world of what have you done for me lately, but building a viable first tier American men's pro soccer league is a long term process. You may not like the growth or level of growth, but it's growing, teams. Sponsorship deals, revenues, team values, lux suites, salaries, etc...to become a sustainable, long term, viable league.
In terms of interest, people are interested. They are more interested in soccer at its highest levels. This thought is similar to fans of other sports. There are strategic things that can be done to improve upon MLS etc...which is a whole other discussion.
However, I'm not going to conclude the lack of interest and viability of soccer in general because of a lack of success of a women's league or lack of success of a minor league men's team. How's the Continental Basketball Association doing?
So now you're jumping from my second post to my first post?
I'll take from this post that you acknowledge I wasn't jumping to anything when I answered the question from clock tower. If you have an issue with "jumping", take it up with him.
Here is my original post:
It looks like another team bites the dust. For having a pretty bad product on the field and very little hype, the attendance numbers weren't too bad IMO. I think it goes to show that it's very hard to make money in this sport, particularly in the lower levels. As a side note, I found it interesting that the women's pro soccer league is now down to 6 teams, all on the east coast. I guess the lack of interest was more than just a St. Louis issue.
As you can read from the first sentence, my topic is about pro soccer teams failing in St. Louis. In case you haven't noticed, there have been many over the past 35 years or so. Show me where I do a comparison to the EPL. Secondly, I typed that it's hard to make money at the lower levels. In your attempt to criticize my point you take the very same position.
If you want to say that moving from men's soccer to women's is "jumping" that can be debated. However, I DID post "as a side note" which would be viewed by most as a transition. (Good for you, from now on no one can address mulitple topics in one thread. I hope you try to police the rest of the topics as much as you do with soccer. How could the author of the article have possibly mentioned it?
)In any case, there were some posts on here critical of area families not doing enough to support professional women's soccer. The learning here is that it wasn't simply a St. Louis issue. It looks like a nationwide issue.
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You've jumped to MLS here. Your original topic was an entirely different thing. Soccer isn't soccer across the board. Baseball isn't baseball across the board. MLB is different from A ball etc...
MLS contract negotiations are currently ongoing to replace older dated contracts. New teams have been added etc...lots of changes since the old ones. Also, with tv revenue, that doesn't count local tv revenue of which some teams previously were doing $4-5 million...to go along with their other sources of revenue. The new tv deals will double to triple previous National tv revenue.
American Broadcasters paid triple totals for European League tv access than for MLS. And, immediately ratings became higher for those telecasts than for MLS despite brutal start times and weekday games.
It's important to break down one league at a time and its specifics. Example, local tv revenue other revenue, all four National tv outlets for MLS, etc...
I "jumped to MLS" because I was responding to a SPECIFIC question from clock tower. How in the hell is that "jumping" to anything? If you're going to pick a fight, at least get a fact or two straight.
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Short of Anne Kordes and Lorenzo Romar (who really went home to Alma Mater U. at what I would argue was in a downward trend with his "star"), what Saint Louis University coach (in any sport) has used this stop as a spring board in theoir overall coaching career?
In my career, the basketball coaches were Randy Albrecht (fired) went back to community college, Ron Coleman (fired) disappeared, Ron Ekker (fired) went to lower level NBA jobs, Rich Grawer (fired) back to high school, Charlie Spponhour retired before resurfacing at UNLV for a short time, Romar, and Soderberg (fired) to lower level college athletics.
There are no Pete Gillen-Skip Prosser-Sean Miller- Thad Matta stories. Graveyard. All-around graveyard. Is Shimmy's headstone being carved now?
I would point out that Grawer didn't coach after getting canned by SLU. He went "back to high school" to take the best paying job in the area as Clayton's AD, not coach. I do agree with your overall point that this hasn't been a springboard in general. Didn't we lose our softball coach to a D2 school?
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If the best players in the world weren't playing with an 8 hour time difference from us, soccer would already be much more popular. Right now it takes the big events (world cup, champions league final, etc.) to get people to watch the sport at odd hours but if (and this is obviously a stupidly big if) the MLS or any other american soccer league started drawing ALL the best players it would be a huge moneymaker in this country I think.
8 hours? Where are the best players in the world playing? Isn't London 5 hours ahead of the Eastern time zone? In any case, there is tivo/dvr technology out there.
I'd be willing to wager that if MLS tried to go out and sign "ALL" the best players in the world at their market value it would be a financial disaster at this point.
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This topic has been covered. There's plenty of interest in professional soccer. That isn't the issue.
Those college baseball and basketball players go on to play in the World's best pro leagues, which take place in the USA. If those top pro leagues were in Europe, there'd be less interest.
Major League baseball is approaching 150 years in existence and yet college baseball is a Regional playoff and final 8 team televised situation.
The NBA? 8 NBA teams have had an operating deficit the past decade plus. This is a 65 year old league.
A little perspective would be a good start.
"Plenty of interest" compared to what?
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I am aware that the redshirt does not have to be formally declared at this point, but by not making a definititve statement, the question will continue to come up in the media. RM will do his radio show tomorrow and likely the question about KM will be asked. RM's statement in the P-D article only talks about tonight's game. The door does not seemed to be closed for KM coming back for the URI game. RM has gone from saying that he would "advise KM not to play, but it is his decision"... to "he has to be cleared by the NCAA first"... to he is not playing against Fordham... none of his statements that I have seen address KM's plans for the rest of the season. Maybe KM has not made a decision yet. Maybe RM wants to keep people guessing? My concern is that KM will want to play against URI.
Who cares if the question continues to come up? Are you expecting straight, consistent answers from RM? We're lucky RM isn't talking about sausages.
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Real shame. Sorry to see them go. I never went to a game so I cannot blame others for not going.
As an aside, my kids (ages 7 and 9) play for Lou Fusz Soccer here in town. Soccer remains very popular as a youth sport, the quality of play seems to get better and better each year, both locally and nationally, but as a revenue sport, it continues to struggle.
Would things have been any different with an MLS team - especially in this bad economy (yes, probably greater attendance and more revenue; however, the expenses also would be higher -- would/will MLS be more profitable?)
I forget what the MLS expansion fee was going to be...something like $35 million. It was enough to scare away any local investors. I'm not sure how in the world you run a franchise and cover the expansion fee without losing money for several years. I think the salary cap is about $2.6 million not counting the protected player rule (or whatever it's called). The teams only get about $2 million each from TV (I think that's what courtside posted).
The average attendance for MLS was 16K in 2009, but that number is inflated by Seattle. I guess you could hope for 15K/game. That would be about 225K in total attendance for regular season games (I'm sure they also play a few friendlies and exhibitions, but I'm not sure what you could charge for those games). If you could average $15/ticket, you could cover the cost of the players and probably the coach, but that doesn't go into travel, support staff, etc.
That's not to mention the cost of building a soccer-only facility. omight be able to make some money, but IMO you're either gambling on more success down the road or willing to wait many years to cover your investment.
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It just seems that if they don't make an announcement, the question about whether KM will redshirt will continue to come up.
Does Barnett travel with the team? Is it possible that by KM not declaring that he is a redshirt at this point, it allows him to continue to travel?
As long as he doesn't play, KM can still be redshirted without any offical declaration happening now. RM said KM wouldn't play unless they were down to 4 players. Not quite an absolute, but pretty close.
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Excited? I would be infuriated.
I wouldn't be excited, but I certainly wouldn't be infuriated. KM will make his own decisions and have to live by them.
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http://www.stltoday.com/sports/soccer/article_4a85b488-0fbd-56d2-b17e-b408d13532e9.html
It looks like another team bites the dust. For having a pretty bad product on the field and very little hype, the attendance numbers weren't too bad IMO. I think it goes to show that it's very hard to make money in this sport, particularly in the lower levels. As a side note, I found it interesting that the women's pro soccer league is now down to 6 teams, all on the east coast. I guess the lack of interest was more than just a St. Louis issue.
And if anybody knows how to audition to be the Billiken, please let me know.
Here's another famous ace question: "who is Orlando Stewart?" 
Jealous of SLU?
in Billikens.com Main Board
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but (as I recall) the original plan was for 13Kish. The problem is that would have involved building a secong tier and added a great deal of cost to a building that was already way behind in fundraising.