SLU philosophy

[slu72]

The thread on Tyus got me thinking. We've all known how hard landing a top recruit is going to be for us and UB. Consequently, the only way he's going to take us to the tourney is with veteran teams of blue collar type guys. I applaud SLU's policy that a guy like Calipari or Huggins will never be a HC here, but once you accept this, you must also accept the fact we're always going to be on the fringes of basketball's elite teams. Can we ever aspire to be a Duke? Not really, because of our conference affiliation. Would Duke be such a plum job or a plum place to go if they were in Conference USA? Same can be said for Wake Forest if they were playing in the Southern Conference. Neither are big state BCS type schools, but they lucked out a long time ago. So, UB's the man for SLU and may be here for quite some time. Get used to it Nark and other UB bashers. Hopefully, his hard work, dedication, and decency over the last 4 years will make us an annual contender in the A-10 and hopefully an invitee say every 2 out of 4 years. That is probably the best we can hope for. We're striving to be an XU at this point...I hope we make that. To hold us to the standards of the biggies is unreasonable, we ain't ever going there. Even if we were to hire an exciting young AC who is Mr. Hell on wheels recruiter, ala Romar, we couldn't keep him for long, so stability and cleanliness is our lot. We all better lower our expectations, or you'll go nuts with frustration.

[billiken_roy]

your entire thought process outlined above is negated with the examples of gonzaga or even xavier. what people have to realize though is that both programs didnt reach those heights overnite. coach soderberg has said on a number of occasions that gonzaga is the program he would want to duplicate. i just hope the abc can see that gonzaga isnt accomplished overnite.

[Pistol]

You make a lot of good points in there, and you're right about what people have to accept: Brad is signed through 2009, and he's staying put. Landing big recruits is always going to be tougher for us than some of the schools we'll be going up against, but I still think we need to go after them and show we want to be a contender.

As far as striving to be an XU, I would take that any day. Look at the list of XU players in the NBA compared to some of the other big programs, and they're right there. The problem XU has is coaching stability- they've been a spring-board for coach after coach who has moved on to bigger programs and paydays. I don't think that will be the case with Brad, so we have an opportunity to build something long-term at SLU, whether he's the guy a lot of posters here want or not.

Another program to model our development after should be Gonzaga. They had a coach that stayed put for a while, and a few players made that program something special. Back when they were surprising people for the first time, it was just a matter of Few building his program around guys like Casey Calvary and Dan Dickau (who were probably "blue collar" type recruits out of high school), and the subsequent recruits thereafter have made the team deeper and more talented: Stepp, Turiaf, Morrison, etc. I don't think this kind of development is out of reach by any means, and I think having Lisch and Liddell on board is a step in that direction.

[MICHAELSPAPPY]

We won't get the top tier recruits ordinarily. So, we must have a coach that can get players to overachieve, and who will stay for long enough to build the program. Can Brad do that? Will Brad do that?

[MICHAELSPAPPY]

Which brings up a question: Is the bigger obstacle not being able to get top recruits, or not being able to get good coaches to stay long enough to develop the talent we have?

[Billiken Rich]

I'd vote for the latter.....

[Pistol]

To answer your first question, yes, I think Brad can do that. The second question: given that he's signed through 2009, I think the bigger challenge for SLU now is drawing the talent in. We keep losing out on the bigger names, and just landing one or two to start with is the hard part.

[slubaseball42]

I think it is about finding the right guy for the job. When a hot shot young coach like Romar is hired (orginally from the west coast) you have assume he is going to leave. If we hire intelligently in the future and find an other alum or someone passionate about building a program we will be able to keep a coach. Hiring a young guy who getting his first head job is obviously not the steps to take to keep a coach around for the long term. I would love to be a Gonzaga, however we need to become a Xavier first. We have made some good steps, however we have a long way to go.

[Box and Won]

I totally agree. If Brad is able to elevate the program and leave SLU for greener pastures (at some point down the road), perhaps by then Jamall Walker will be ready to take the reins. JW strikes me as the kind of guy who might want to stick around a while.

Of course, that's probably what Butler was thinking when they hired Thad Matta.

[MICHAELSPAPPY]

>I totally agree. If Brad is able to elevate the program and

>leave SLU for greener pastures (at some point down the

>road), perhaps by then Jamall Walker will be ready to take

>the reins.

The real catch is getting a capable coach to stay for a couple of years AFTER he has real success. So often they have a great year and move on immediately, so the school doesn't get the full recruiting benefit of the success.

[p diddy]

Brad is capable, but he has to be a better and more diligent recruiter. As we have discussed so many times before, he has to avoid those critical recruiting mistakes that have plagued him in the first couple of years of his tenure.

the recruiting of vas'shun was a colossal error in judgement and talent evaluation by brad. he was a lower-level d-1 at best or a d-2 player, but he was brought in here to start in the C-USA. This cannot happen anymore. what made it worse was that brad did not bother to recruit vas'shun's cousin and lifelong pal je'kel foster, who went on to help lead ohio state to a big 10 title. that is one we should have had and he would have answered many of our perimeter issues that past two seasons. Je'kel was a juco all-american and a prime recruit, but we ignored him.

we all love anthony drejaj, but we cannot have someone of his limited skills playing 30 minutes a game and expect to win the A-10. If marginally talented players are key role players, that's great, but when you expect them to become front-line and big minute players, you're asking for trouble because you put a ceiling on how good you can be.

In order to be successful at slu, you have to be tireless in your pursuit for players and know what you're looking at. You cannot be indecisive on good talent (like shaw and stemler), because you will lose out every time to a more attractive option. the bottom line is that brad pissed stemler and his camp off during the process and he pretty much wrote us off.

These mistakes have to be avoided if you are going to have long-term success.

Of course, getting quality area players to sign is a MUST. You can see how attendance pops when things go well with area kids. Just look at our increase in attendance last year after a nine-win season.

btw: this holds true for any coach at slu.

bad boyz for life

[davidnark]

I agree with you point that the formula holds true for any coach at SLU. Ironically, perhaps only Rich Grawer understood and mastered the situation despite being provided limited resources. Of course, Rich was ultimately a victim of being scared of his own shadow.

I have two additional thoughts on the topic.

One, the analysis you articulated so well should change in coming years as the new on-campus facility provides the SLU coach with a greater margin for error.

Second, I fear that not only does Brad struggle to master the formula you identified above, but he also struggles to master his tightly-wound, micromanaging disposition.

[nostatic]

I don't believe we ignored Je'kel Foster. We were recruiting 2 players from Chipola, both Foster & Newborne. Don't know if Matta had a relationship with Foster or not.

I'm not sure losing players to Ohio State or Indiana means that we are total failures. As we continue to improve our record we will win more of these battles.

I believe Foster was recruited, but did not come.

[Hardball]

Your statement regarding finding the right guy is accurate. Everyone keeps mentioning the Gonzaga's and XU's which is great but getting the right guy is easier than it appears.

Gonzaga had Munson and then Few, XU had Gillen then Matta so it can be done. We had Romar. The question is has BS improved, sustained or backtracked Romar's work? BS was a memeber on the staff for a year prior to Romar leaving so he had to know the closet skeletons.

I think more along the lines of Collier from Butler who went to Nebraska. He hasn't done great at Nebraska but he was excellent at Butler. Pearl came from an Iowa assistant with Davis, then won a DII National Championship at South Indiana as a head coach and left for Wisc/Milwaukee. I think he would have worked well at SLU.

Weber form SIU would have been a great fit. He had deomonstrated an ability to get talent and win against Major programs. Weber had more than one (I believe three) NCAA appearences in his first five years. Then SIU had Painter who went to the NCAA and then to Purdue. Now they have Lowry who got to the tournmant last year. If SIU can do it why can't SLU? I do not understand!!! Please someone explain how it is easier to recruit to Carbondale than St. Louis

Would you rather coach at SIU or SLU? AT Wisc/Milwaukee or SLU? AT Butler or SLU? If I am serious about coaching I know the answer to every question. Are you telling me Collier would have gone to Butler before SLU; or would Weber have gone to SIU before SLU; or would Pearl have left S. Indiana for Wisc/Milwaukee or SLU?

It is all about finding the right guy and it really is not that hard!

[Hardball]

Nostatic,

If you say we can't beat the big boys how do we loose to the little guys like SIU?

Over the last four years look at the schools we beat out for recruits. Who did we beat out for Husak,Browm,Polk,Meyer,Newbourne, Drejia,MQ,Ian? With the exception of two recruits it is not a group we should be exited about being a part of.

[Basketbill]

while some are upin arms about Brad given what he has done or notdone so far, many were just as upset with Romar it the end of his tenure here.

Yet now people point to him as an all star coach. Which was he?

Patience folks.....or else all we will ever get is the up and coming coach fora three year stint.

[jjray]

>> we all love anthony drejaj, but we cannot have someone of his limited skills playing 30 minutes a game and expect to win the A-10. If marginally talented players are key role players, that's great, but when you expect them to become front-line and big minute players, you're asking for trouble because you put a ceiling on how good you can be.<<

Generally I think Brad has raised the talent level over what he inherited; however, I have a problem with the fact that he installed an offense designed to generated open 15 foot jumpers but he recruited very few shooters. One of the biggest problems our offense has suffered under Brad's tenure is the fact that we generally only one solid perimeter shooter on the floor at any given time. The one shooter has a bad night or is locked up with a solid defender and we sputter. Going after DM and Lance Stemler in the last class tells me Brad has changed his thinking on this issue.

My second issue relates to Pdiddy's comment above. Drejaj is somewhat of a microcosm of the problem. Tons of heart and determination but playing him 30 minutes a game (especially at the 3)? One looks at a player such as Darren Clarke and wonders if he would have developed into something had he been given long stretches of playing time. Especially 2 years ago when we sucked. Drejaj who had a low ceiling, was not going to improve with minutes but gives the coach consistent effort night in, night out. Clarke started the season openner 2 years ago thereafter benched (while Drejaj gets all the minutes he can handle) never to be heard from again till near the end of the season when Reggie Bryant went down. Clarke then starts one game, puts up 15 points in 25 minutes. Then goes back to the bench for the rest of the season. I won't even get into Blake Ahearn (see above comment about lack of shooters).

Another Drejaj related example of the symptom. Danny Brown explods for 20+ points against GW last season then goes to the bench after a few poor outings. If we had kept Danny Brown at 20+ minutes per game for the remainder of the season (when our post-season hopes were low), might Danny Brown have become an improved player thus better capable of stepping into the starting lineup this coming season? Or, at the very least, might we have found out that DB is not going to develop into a front line player? Right now Danny Brown is still an enigma. We don't know. But Drejaj got all the minutes he could handle. We missed the post season and didn't develop an answer at the 3.

[kevinfootes]

SLU probably can't be Duke, unless we make the tourney 20 years in a row or something like that. There are only 10 or 12 schools in the country that are like Duke. However, it is fair to compare SLU to programs like Marquette and Gonzaga. Conference affiliation is important, but it can also blow up in your face (see Metro years) if you're not trying to be competitive. I don't think there's anything lucky about the success of Duke or Wake. They're at a big diasadvantage, and they were able to overcome it by by winning year in and year out.

Also, do you think Mr. Hell on Wheels Romar recruited well at SLU?

[p diddy]

slu did not recruit foster. they played high school ball together. they went to howard together and then transferred to chipola together. we had an inside track with him because we got vas'shun. we just failed to capitilize on it. nothing like a package deal staring you in the face.

bad boyz for life

[tseugnekillib]

I'm not so sure SLU didn't inquire/recruit Foster. Keep in mind that Chipola's coach at the time was Chris Jan. Chris Jan played for

Coach Soderberg at Loras College in Iowa. (Jan is now at Illinois State). With that former player-coach relationship, why wouldn't have SLU shown interest in Foster. Perhaps SLU learned quickly that Foster had higher ambitions than SLU or perhaps transferrable credits was an issue. I don't buy that SLU didn't talk to Jan's about Foster.

Deke Thompson (Missouri State) was the point guard on that Chipola

team. Maybe SLU should have recruited Thompson.....if you want to use hindsight!

[tseugnekillib]

1) without question, SLU needs to improve its recruiting. At times, recruiting is a crap shoot, but you have to have far more successes than failures. Hopefully, the new arena will be a plus in attracting

quality players who in other years would have passed on Saint Louis.

2) I don't buy that SLU "ignored" Foster. As stated below, Foster's coach at Chipola played for Soderberg at Loras College. Perhaps Foster was looking higher or perhaps transferrable credits were an issue. You could not watch Chipola that year and "ignore" Foster.

3) pissing-off Stemler and his camp ..... give me a large break! This has been rehashed numerous times, but since you brought it up....here we go again. What had Stemler accomplished to deserve an early offer? No offers out of high school, redshirt-injury wipes out first year at SWIC, takes a late summer scholarship to Bradley. Minors injuries and non-production limits Stemler to 12 games/66minutes his first year at Bradley. Unhappy at Bradley he re-enrolls full time at SWIC in the Fall 2005. Juco practices starts about October 1st. So why didn't any D1 schools offer Stemler before the November 2005 early signing period? Answer....they haven't sign enough of Stemler. A SWIC coach publically states "you will have to hide Stemler on defense".....now there is a red-flag! Stemler has an overall excellent season, plays on a really good team, and fate deals him a scholarship to Indiana, where he will play for a school AND head coach who had NO interst in him prior to late March 2006.

4) while fans can benefit greatly from "hindsight"....unfortunately, the college recruiters / pro scouts don't have access to the ever-right "hindsight" tool!

Peace.