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SLU v. Mizzou


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When Spoon and Norm left SLU and Mizzou, respectively, the programs were at similar levels.

Without even discussing on the court success, I am astonished at the discrepancy that has since developed in the two program's recruiting. If we cannot compete with Mizzou in recruiting, how are we going to compete with them on the court? The following are some recent recruiting comparisons:

SLU signs Ian -- a center/power forward from Europe who scores a few points the game off the bench in the World Juniors.

Mizzou signs Kleiza -- a power forward from Europe who scores 24 points per game in the World Juniors.

SLU signs Clarke -- a top 150 shooting guard

Mizzou signs Gardner -- a top 40 shooting guard

Mizzou signs Grimes -- a top 40 forward from the St. Louis area

SLU hopes to sign Shaw -- a top 200 forward from the St. Louis area

Mizzou signs McKinney -- a top 40 guard

SLU signs Drejaj -- an unrated guard

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Whoa there

I think you are way off base. Norm and Spoon had comparable programs???????

Norm couldn't get much out of his talent but he always had top players in his program, when he left Dooling and Gilbert had just come into the fold, two top 50 players and bona fide college stars.

What did Spoon have????? A group of holdovers and Larry Hughes. When Spoon left Mizzou was way ahead of SLU, maybe not so much in the wins column but you could definetely see that Mizzou was moving in a direction that would eventually allow them to get nationally renowned recruits year after year. Norm laid the groundwork right before he left for what Quin is doing now.

Spoon gave next to nothing to SLU. We all know how many times Romar struck out, those two left the cupboard bare and put the program back several years.

Mizzou has improved their stock exponentially nationally the last 10 years. SLU has been running in place during that time, save for the one Hughes year, and maybe even gone a little backwards.

I am not in any way trying to make excuses. We should be at or near the same level that Mizzou is, but we aren't. Are we that far off, no not really. With 2 or 3 years of NCAA tourney appearances, a new arena, a new conference, and good player development, we will start showing up on lists of big time players. Local products won't blow us off, but this is still at least 3-4 years away. Can we compete with Mizzou on the court? Hell yes, we have a better coach and more fundamentally sound players. Can we compete with Mizzou off the court? Hell no, not at this stage of the game and certainly not when spoon was here.

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When Spoon and Norm left their respective programs, both schools were top 50, but not top 25 programs, and both schools had made the tournament several times in the past five years but had not made it into the sweet sixteen.

Spoon left behind Perry, Jeffers, Love, Henrich, Tatum, Redden, and Baniak--top to bottom arguably as much talent as SLU has ever had.

What has separated the two programs since Spoon and Norm's departures has been Snyder's ability to recruit players like Rush, Johnson, Paulding, McKinney, Bryant, etc.

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You are correct but the problem was that Spoon did not have multiple years of good recruiting - Norm normally strung consective years of good recruiting together. Spoon's inability to work hard at recruiting and find the right kind of athlete for SLU has been well documented so no need to rehash this. The big difference between where SLU and MU are both now is we had Romar. Romar did not deliver and his failed recruiting strategy has put us where we are today. Quinn had the advantage of having been associated with Coach K and Duke so that opened doors for him. It is interesting though that he still had to go after Pulley who we all know is not that great of a pt grd. The bottom line is that being rated high in JUCO is not the same as being rated high coming out of high school.

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Norm couldn't get much out of the talent he had? I would submit that his '94 team was one of the best coaching jobs in NCAA history, going undefeatd in big 8 play and making the elite eight with a bunch of kids who were not highly recruited with the exception of Jevon Crudup and a freshmen Kelly Thames, neither of whom were McDonald's All American types.

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I'm of the opinion that Kelly Thames was snubbed from being a McDonald's All-American. I saw him play in high school, and I believe he was every bit as good as any McDonald's All-American. Let's face it, that "team" is based more on politics than on talent. Oh, they're all very talented players -- don't get me wrong --- but sometimes they leave off deserving players for players who are not as deserving (like when Ryan Robinson was a McDonald's All-American because the game would be played in St. Louis that year).

Also, even if he's career wasn't great, Julian Winfield, a member of the 1994 Missouri team in question, WAS a highly-recruited athlete. He just chose SLU over Kansas coming out of high school (mostly because his dad, Lee, had been a long-time assistant coach under Rich Grawer). When Grawer was fired, Julian transferred to Kansas, but then Norm Stewart made the shrewd move of hiring Lee Winfield and the Winfield family decided that rather than compete against each other, Julian should play at Missouri.

Stewart did get a lot out of that 1994 Tigers team, but it's not like it didn't have some talented players. Melvin Booker was second-team All-America that year; Paul O'Liney was an excellent scorer; Jevon Crudup was a solid big man and a second-round NBA draft pick; Thames was headed for big things if he didn't hurt his knee.

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thicks, you just hit on why the top st. louis area players stopped coming to slu. when grawer was fired, winfield went with him. spoon had a chance to keep winfield, but he didn't. that was when the st. louis pipeline stopped cold. lee winfield had big time respect and credibility with the st. louis community, which included the city and county. his son was an all-american ar cardinal ritter, which was a burgeoning national power at the time. at one time, slu was getting the top st. louis players. (bonner, douglass, gray, upchurch (who did sign), robinson, winfield, highmark, claggett). slu was pretty much getting the lions share of area talent, but that changed with winfield was not retained. spoon brought in these guys who had no knowledge of st. louis or no contact with the area. BIG MISTAKE IN THIS TOWN. it also allowed mizzou to get back into the picture in st. louis. instead of following the pipeline to slu, thames wound up at mizzou. instead of getting the ritter kids (where julian graduated from), they went to duke, g'town and wake forest). and so on and so on. we got lucky with larry, but that is about it.

once we lost control of the area, it has been virtually impossible to get it back, especially when top programs are coming in with regularity.

bad boyz for life

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Excellent post, p diddy. I have to agree completely with the exception of the fact that SLU seemed to have a little success when Spoonhour had Derek Thomas on his staff. I lamented Spoon's decision not to keep Winfield; to a lesser extent I lamented the fact that Thomas didn't stay with Lorenzo Romar.

Who do you think Brad Soderberg could hire from the St. Louis area to help recruit the best St. Louis area players? I'll reiterate my plea that SLU should make every possible and legal effort to involve Anthony Bonner in the program once he's finished playing. Also, Erwin Claggett is coaching; what about him? Marvin Neals?

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first, i think it is ironic that as weak of a recruiter that spoon was at slu, the incoming class of recruits at vegas is considered one of the best in the country. going away present by derek maybe?

as to future coaching members, claggett would be interesting. so might quitman dillard to help create a chicago pipeline. q sure did a wonderful job running that high school team at the shootout a few years ago in that stunning upset of oak hill academy. and no one can argue q's personality screams of a college recruiter.

i was sitting nearby when erwin claggett came over at an eagles game earlier this year to talk to a few fans. he is all smiles and an extremely personable person as well. and there is no denying erwin's legend in the community.

the belleville althoff head coach, greg leib, is a nice thought as well. the kids like him a lot and he is also a very personable person. i could see him as a college recruiter. it doesnt hurt that the second best junior in the area next season plays guard for him as well.

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Assistant coaches in college have to be accostomed to working long, non-traditional hours and spending a great deal of time on the road and away from home. The best assistant coaches are personable with tireless work ethics. I don't know Bonner, Clagget, or any of these local high school coaches personally, but do any of them fit all of these criteria.

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I think I am Thicks. Honestly, that is not a final 8 or final 4 type team talent wise, but it was heart wise, and yes, coaching gets a lot of credit. Yes, Booker was developed into an unbelievable player, but he was not highly recruited. In fact, an article from his home town was posted on Tigerboard recently indicating that he was offered only two d1 scholarships, MU and Central Florida. I didn't say that team had no talent, but I will point that team out to anyone who states that Norm never got anything out of the talent he had. It's simply not true.

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david ... to me, you have just described, in a recruiting-vein, the difference in SLU and almost any big time, top level program. Unfortunately, this is what Brad Soderberg is left with. He need to take the types of kids you described above and create an atmosphere that produces winning seasons and NCAA bids. And he will have to do it, at least for the time being, with the type of recruits you have described above. That's his challenge.

Only after he wins for a while (i.e. Gonzaga, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, etc.) will he 1) be able to entice the local kids of talent to stay home and fight for Old Alma Mater U., and 2) will he have any chances at getting a top player (A top player .. not A FEW) to commit to the program as well. This is the crawl stage. That stage will be populated with Husaks, Frericks, Clarkes, Morris, etc. for a while. It needs to breed longevity ... which I have called for in the form of four-year recruits more than JUCO stop gaps.

Hopefully it will lead to the walk stage in two or so years. Is Polk the start of the walk? Maybe. Its sectional ..... and you're description above is where we've been at since Hughes.

Frankly, Mizzou made the right move in hiring Quin. He's elitist as they come IMHO. Not that that's wrong .... that where they want to go (we all do) and they offer more right now in getting Quin to his goals. With his pedigree, he won't come here. This was supposed to be Spoon's last hurrah. Romar used it as a stepping stone to where he wanted to go. Soderberg is using it to get back into a game that he might believe Wisconsin stiffed him out of. But out of them all, I'll take Brad's needs and use it for ours. Same with his staff.

But what you started this thread with is SLU in a nutshell on one aspect of the overall program. That's our reality and we have to live with it. We have little to no margin for error. That's SLU life, sports fans. Making do with less.

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nothing brad does or says leads me to believe he considers slu anykind of a stepping stone. i believe he could have easily gotten a top assistant's position about anywhere when he took the slu job, but he saw slu as a position to get in line for a head job at the kind of school that had philosophies and beliefs that mirrored what he is all about. i can see brad soderberg being at slu a long time. at least i hope so.

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i can see brad soderberg being at slu a long time. at least i hope so.

goddammit broy ... which one is it? A lock long time or an i-hope-so long time??????? ya might bet the house on this one or ya might not?

I think Soderberg is a potential long timer. If he can get to the dance more times than not and developer his style and his program, then he stays for a while. But let's face it, this program has not been the end-all stop for anyone ... EVER. Short of Rich Grawer. The university is making some commitments that I have never really seen before so that is good.

But make no mistakes, when this program's head job comes open, its always the up-and-coming assistants that get talked about more so than the establishment. Spoon was an aberration that I believe Debbie Yow had a lot to do with. She seems to have had and still has vision. I still have no clue why a west coaster like Romar got lured in here. But if you follow the trend, you're going to have to take someone moving on up (Weber) or someone starting out (Gregory). This is a layover for most, not a final destination.

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