billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 thicks said, "Second, going back to Melvin's "last straw" example. If the doctor says the player is sick and should sit out a practice or two, how is it "coddling" the player to let him rest, just shooting free throws on the side for one session? There's a difference between "not coddling" and being an out-and-out jerk." thicks it was always my understanding (and i heard this straight from a former billiken that played with melvin) that melvin was "sick" a lot at practice. ever hear the boy called wolf story? i commend melvin for caring about his son. too often in today's society that is not the case and hopefully melvin will take great care to make sure his son, who it sounds like will be a national recruit simply based on his size alone, doesnt repeat the same mistakes that melvin made as a young giant with the world at his feet. i have heard torch's take a lot over the years and it came from varying sources. funny though, i have never ever heard rich grawer say a bad thing about melvin in the many opportunities he has had over the years. second, if rich was such a bad guy, surely melvin had seen the light well enough that his next stop would have been the place to blossum? i dont recall life being any better for him at arizona state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I think that it is fair to say that Melvin was given a chance to shine and for reasons that only he and Rich Grawer know, it did not completely work out for him at SLU. My take is that is too bad, but in the same vein, I'm sure that Melvin doesn't come out lily white in the blame game analysis of his SLU tenure. He has some culpability in the fact that his stay at SLU did not measure up to expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 >thicks it was always my understanding (and i heard this >straight from a former billiken that played with melvin) >that melvin was "sick" a lot at practice. ever hear the boy >called wolf story? I wasn't aware of that aspect. I would have to speak to Melvin again to address that issue and gauge what impact that might have had on Melvin's "last straw" story. What also comes into play is whether or not the doctor's advice was always present. If that advice was just that one time, then I would have to question a coach's decision to ignore the advice, even if the player had feigned being sick in order to lollygag in practice many other occasions. >second, if rich was such a bad guy, surely melvin had seen >the light well enough that his next stop would have been the >place to blossum? i dont recall life being any better for >him at arizona state. Let me make it clear that I don't think Rich Grawer is a bad guy. Neither did Melvin say anything negative about Grawer other than relay the experiences he had with him. I do think, based on the second- and third-hand information that I have, that Grawer may have been from the Bob Knight school of caring. For him, it took an in-your-face, relentless, drill-sargeant style of coaching to make men of his players. Some people can accept and thrive under that style of leadership, and some can't. These days, more can't than can. I asked Melvin about his decision to declare for the draft and not play his last half-year at Arizona State. I believe he second guesses the decision, but what it comes down to is that he got bad advice about where he would go in the draft and he felt depressed at Arizona State. He told me that he was going to transfer to Missouri at first but then decided he wanted to get as far away as possible. I suspect it was an impulsive decision that wasn't well thought out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 I'm not trying to make Melvin Robinson out to be a saint, either, and I'm not saying that he doesn't shoulder some of the "blame" for his experiences at SLU. All I'm doing is telling Melvin's story and suggesting that those fanatical fans who make it miserable for him to show his face on campus ease up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Grawer's NCAA record is more a result of the Billikens strength of schedule which was not completely in Rich's control (but something he could have done better at). And even if it is a few years apart, the player's I knew in Grawer's first four years had very little respect for him (and I am not going to go any further on this). I personally think that some of the hard work that Rich demanded paid off in terms of fundamentals (his teams shot free throws very well and were generally pretty well aerobically conditioned) but I am very surprised people here think he knew much about basketball. His game coaching was weak at best and occasionally embarassingly bad (his consistent shuffling of players in and out during games to lecture them had a negative effect on the players ultimately). Grawer: Local recruiting: A National recruiting: D (Tony Brown?) Fundamentals: A Game Coaching: C- Game Prep: B+ Intangibles/Personality: D- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Thicks it's a joke. I've known Carl for 35 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 Thanks for weighing in kwyjibo. I find your comments enlightening, but I don't know if I can accept your claim that Grawer was a poor game tactician. I base that on the record of his 1988-89 and 1989-90 teams that won a lot of games and finished second in the NIT two consecutive years, even though I do question the fact that those teams weren't able to do what it took to get to the NCAA Tournament. Are you saying that the records those two years were much more the result of talent than good game strategy? If so, I guess I can accept that, but it might take me a while to agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 ...didn't I say I hoped you were making a joke? I still wanted to tell Carl's story for the benefit of other readers who aren't privvy to the joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Your first statement is true on many past and perhaps some present D-1 HC's. Back when I was in school, I knew many players personally that went to Mizzou and played for ol Stormin Norm. They absolutely could not stand the guy; however, like I said I'm certain that was a common trait in those days...just not sure how much or if it still holds water with today's kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 i would never mistake rich grawer for booby knight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 Of course not. You're Mr. Super Billiken Defender, equipped with Billiken-blue vision! (I love you Roy!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I thought his pregame preparation was topflight - he was ready for whatever team we played. I think his x's and o'x during the games was very good. However, I didn't like the way he yanked guys. Hoops is a game of reaction - instinct often takes over because things develop so quickly. He had guys looking over their shoulders - paralysis by analysis - which means we didn't get their best game. I think dressing-downs are best done in private, or, at least, in the huddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentFLBilliken Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Coach Grawer was a POOR game tactician. 1990 home game against Southern Illinois Grawer stands and watches his team play a packed-in zone for 15 minutes of the 2nd half as a forward named Shipley (I think) drains 3 after 3 after 3 with no hand in his face. I was screaming "PRESS THEM!!!" so many times, so loudly that I couldnt talk for about a week after. Grawer finally decides to go man-to-man and SLUs furious comeback falls a point or two short. After that day, I had no problem with Grawer being fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Game management may have been something Rich was not as well versed at, but Xs and Os in any context was Rich's far and away strength. He was a great basketball tactician. His ideas and coaching styrategy can stand up to anyne in the country, just read one of his books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 (I'm not trying to be funny.) What books on coaching has Rich Grawer written and published? I haven't heard of any, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Care to give me some titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 when i was in 7th grade, i attended the ed maccauley basketball camp. grawer was a counselor at the camp. he made a tremendous impression on me and i remember to this day many of the tips and coaching i got from coach grawer. in fact, i would say that grawer is what i took away from that camp and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 thicks, i believe rich has actually written 2 or 3 books on teaching basketball to youth. try going to google and search rich grawer books. i bet you have hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I followed the Bills from afar in those years in question. The team had some success and I guess it is likely he became better. I can only talk about his first four years in depth. He did have good (but not great) game plans set up in advance. My low rating of him was in game coaching. He gets a low rating for two main reasons: he constantly shuffled players in and out (while he did this for discipline/motivation it hurt the team because they lost continuity and it meant players played way too tentative when Grawer rode them--the player's hated this) and he did not adjust well to how other teams played (so he may have had a good game strategy mapped out and worked real hard on it but IF the other team did something else he did not adjust well at all and was plain stubborn about his game plan). I remember a 93-4(?) Bradley game well when the Braves used a spread the floor gimmick and got tons of lay-ups by picking behind guys cutting to the basket. Grawer did not respond in any smart or rational way to the obvious problems of playing a tight man in this set up (he did not even hassle the high post which would have been the weak link in this scheme); he simply yelled at his players to play harder and after about 20 easy points FINALLY switched to some zone. It was embarassing to see SLU turned into the Washington Generals and elevate Bradley to the Globe Trotters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I agree with kwyjibo's assessment of Rich Grawer with this addendum: Rich Grawer was a pretty good Xs and Os coach. That is generally considered to be part of being a "game coach". Nonetheless, his relentless shuffling of players was maddening and a big deflater of team spirit and confidence. He is an intense individual (which can be a good thing) but had a terrible habit of rubbing a player's nose in every mistake or flaw like a puppie dog, not just in practice but in games too. All that said, remember that Rich Grawer walked into an absolutely horrific situation created by Ron Ekker. Grawer had his flaws but he raised the program back up to respectability. Without Grawer, the Spoon years would not have been possible. As a SLU fan, I not only hold no malice against Rich Grawer, I would shake his hand and thank him would we ever meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I agree with this. I do not harbor any illwill to Grawer. I was honestly surprised over the years when people remember him fondly (he deserves a lot credit for his hard local recruiting and renewing local interest). The criticisms also stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentFLBilliken Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I know he wrote a book on post play during the Stipo era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 Grawer's last year was the 1991-92 fiasco. But that's just picking nits. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 the reason it is so easy to fondly remember rich grawer is because he followed ekker. ekker is the voldermort of billiken basketball history imo. we are still recovering from the chasm that he put the program in imo. had rich not been the steadying force he was, we might all be rooting for different teams today. forget what weaknesses coach grawer may have had. imo it is all easy to overlook based on the simple fact he followed the worst and made something out of it when it could have easily slid into nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Oh boy am I getting old. I am now screwing up whole decades! Well, I was discussing his first 4 years and I should have guessed '83-'84. Anyway, I looked it up and it was a 58-57 loss to Bradley on Dec. 5th 1983. And Squint Hunter was the worst coach in Billiken history. Only 16 points in two games with Loyola (Ill.) and a career 0-14 record! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 squint hunter? great name though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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