worst case ... what do we do?

[jjray]

OK, the first domino has fallen--Miami and VT to the ACC. Although this whole process has not played out as projected by conventional wisdom, the las vegas odds have Louisville and Cincy going to the BE to replace the two departed teams. If the BE stops there, then I think CUSA lives to fight another day. Under this senario, with Marquette and DePaul still left out of the mix with SLU, things are not so bad.

Another well recited rumor at this point is that Marquette and potentially DePaul as well shall go to the BE as B-ball only members with Louisville and Cincy (so that the BE would then have an 8 team football conference and an 8 team b-ball conference). If that happens, we can expect a few others to shake loose of CUSA and have a core remainder maybe looking like this:

Memphis

Charlotte

SLU

E. Carolina

S. Florida

Tulane

UAB

S. Miss.

Note: you need 6 teams for a conference. I believe there are only 6 football teams in my above list. What if Tulane moved west? Down to 5 and the CUSA football schools have a problem.

The point is that it gets really ugly should SLU get separated from Marquette and DePaul in the shuffle. Also, I'm not sure staying with CUSA will be an option. Begging Xavier, Dayton, St. Joseph's to leave the A10 to join a new papal b-ball conference (plus a non-catholic like Charlotte) may be our best hope at that point.

[StLouBlue]

The list of teams you have there is ugly. I wouldn't want that as a basis for adding more teams. I feel like the only MVC supporter here, but I think if SLU & a Memphis(or DePaul) were to be added to the MVC the league as a whole would improve. The MVC is not a great league but it is good league that puts 2 teams into the tourney each year and could put 3 if a SLU, DePaul or Memphis combo joined. I think this would be a much better league than staying w/ S Florida, S Miss, Tulane, etc. There would be good regional rivalries like SMS, SIU & Ill St as well as similar academic schools like Creighton, Drake & Bradley. It would not be as bad of a fit as many seem to think.

[thetorch]

I would not be so down on the mo valley if SLU, Depaul AND Memphis joined, and the Mo Vall cut out two or three of the stragglers. WHile not great that league could be good, not quite up to par with CUSA though.

[jjray]

I understand why you guys want to look to the Valley as an option should Armaggedon arrive; however, it makes me uncomfortable being in a league with so many small market teams. OK, I'm a city guy at heart. But the Valley, even with SLU and say Butler added, will have zero appeal for a TV contract. It also will have very little in the way of marquee rivalries--SLU v. Creighton might be as good as it gets. I would prefer trying to hook up with A10 schools. If we could get St. Joseph's and DePaul ... at least we would have Chicago, Philly, and St. Louis TV markets in the league.

[Taj79]

Having TV markets is one thing, jj .... but I would offer that out of your three TV markets here .... the schools listed are not even the biggest fish in those markets.

We can argue all day about SLU. Is it us in St. Louis or Mizzou? Or Illinois? Or the Rams? Definitely the Cards. I would argue that it ain't DePaul in Chicago. The Cubs, da Bears, even Illinois and more likely Notre Dame are all higher rated options than RuPaul. And I can certainly vouch that it ain't St. Joes in Philly. I believe that collegiately speaking, its Villanova but when you add in Temple, Penn and even Penn State, the pool is really depleted. St. Joes's home arena is like a 2K seater. And Drexel is the fifth wheel in the Big Five.

I understand the need for TV markets, but I believe that if you examine market share, where the big TV money comes from, this ain't it and it ain't happening. Its like going into New York with NYU or Fordham. Not where you ant to be.

[Taj79]

I don't undertand your second scenario, jj ...... if Lousivlle and Cincy go to the Big East and you still add Marquette and DePual, don't you have an 8-team football group and a TEN team bb conference? The remaining BE football schools, Pitt, UConn, Rutgers, Syraacuse, BC and WVa all play basketball as well. Adding UofL and Cincy does make an 8 team football league but takes the BE back up to its basketball standard what with the providences and G-Towns left in the BE. Adding the other two means what ..... two 8-team divisions within your new BE?

I do believe, however, that you are closer to the correct pick than others. I still do not believe SLU has any clout in any of this when they start picking who "moves up and on" and who doesn't. I suspect that a return to the Valley .... with or without any combination of Memphis, Dayton, Butler, DePaul, etc .... is closer to our reality than not. On a scale of 1 to 100 it might register a 51 or a 52 but it is more so that way than not in my thinking.

[former_d1]

Would mu or depaul really join the big east? The travel for all sports and no natural rivals would keep me from doing it.

[Billiken Rich]

If we can upgrade the Valley with marquette and Memphis it makes regional sense. In conference strength it would appear to be a lateral move. It makes no sense for us to remain in the projected remains of CUSA.

[jjray]

Good points Tag but I think what cities the league has a footprint in are important for 2 reasons (even if the teams are not huge draws in those cities): (a) recruiting & perception is everything and ( how big can you program and league become? When you play in a city that helps substantially in recruiting from that city. When you tell a recruit where he will be traveling for games, how does Chicago, Philadelphia, Memphis sound versus Peoria, Springfield, Carbondale? It gives the impression that you conference is not "small time" but something larger just by the cities it is associated with. Private schools in small towns have a very difficult time growing their sports programs into something large. They can only attract so much attention, money, recruits, etc.

I think this is the sort of issue where two people can look at it and see two different things.

[jjray]

Second BE senario--8 football team division / 8 b-ball (non football) division of 16 team conference:

-------------------------------

Current football BE:

BC

Conn

Pitt

Rutgers

Syracuse

W.Vir.

Temp (rumored to be leaving after 2004)

Additional football:

Louisville

Cincy

Current B-ball (non-fb):

ND

Georgetown

Prov

Vill

St. Johns

SH

Additional b-ball:

Marquette

DePaul / Xavier

[cheeseman]

NO NO NO to the Valley!!!! Those of you who are even considering this show no vision. The Bills long ago left the Valley to try to be big time. Going to the Valley is absolutely the wrong direction. Our hopes at this time are that CUSA stays in some reasonable shape or Doug Woolard is out there doing his job - I know that is a big if given his low profile style. All this talk about the Valley simply gives fuel to those who think we are small time. This a critical point for SLU - the time is to think BIG not small. To be honest, any basketball only school should be looking to get themselves away from a conference with football teams since football seems to cause a situation that forces all the other sports to bend to them. Basketball only schools do not get any of the revenue from the football side of the conference so their best bet is to form their own basketball only conference in as many big markets as possible and pick the best teams they can. Look for this or something like this to happen. We need to be encouraging SLU to do this rather than settle for less. By the way, we do not have to beg anybody to do anything - Woolard should be putting together a plan that shows why it is in their best interest to join us.

[willie]

Well said.

[billiken_roy]

wooolard might be dotting i's and crossing t's, but my money is on father biondi cutting the deal.

[Taj79]

nm

[jjray]

I hope so Roy. If the Big East does in fact become a 16 team super conference with a football and b-ball division, the odds are that SLU gets left out of that mix. It is much better for us if the Big East becomes either an all football or all basketball (i.e., schools with no football) conference. If, on the other hand, the BE 2nd senario becomes a reality, I think SLU needs to be proactive with like-minded basketball schools to try and put together a new conference that makes the best of bad situation.

My sense of reading articles is that we have a year before this thing plays itself out. The BE schools want to go forward with their lawsuit and Louisville has motivation to sit on the sidelines to see if they might win the lottery to become the 12th ACC member. It would sure help our hand in this poker match if the b-ball and soccer teams fair well this coming season.

[3star_recruit]

If they became a 16 team conference it would soon crumble under its own weight anyway. The current members aren't exactly marching in lockstep right now. The Billikens need to be part of a stable situation.

[SLUDrew]

The scenario you just mentioned would be a huge step back for this program. If we were to go to the Valley we would essentially be stating that we are satisfied with mediocrity, and have no intentions of making a final four. It is true that the Valley has been very competitive over the past few seasons, but if we want to be able to recruit blue chip recruits and fill the new arena which the University will dump a lot of money into, then we need to play higher caliber opponents than what we could muster out of the MVC.

[StLouBlue]

I am not saying we should move to the MVC. Rather if this is where we end up, it will not be as bad as many posters think. CUSA could be losing its top 3-4 schools--Marquette, Cincinnati, Louisville and/or Memphis. If this happens there is no reason for DePaul & SLU to stay in CUSA. I have a hard time seeing SLU playing in an east coast league like Atlantic 10 or Big East, travel expense for minor sports alone might keep that from happening. I don't think the best and brightest schools will leave the MVC(Creighton/SIU/Bradley), or the Horizon(Butler/Detroit/Wis-Milw) for a chance at a new league w/ SLU or DePaul. What does this leave then, SLU would have to look at joining another conference. Conferences this would most make sense are MVC, Ohio Valley, & Horizon, none are an upgrade from where we are now. If we can stick with DePaul then we upgrade whichever of those three conferences we end up at.

Would this be a huge step back for the program. Yes, but take any conference's best 3-4 teams away and what you have remaining is a drop off. This is what the other schools in CUSA have to be looking at if Marquette, Cincinnati, Louisville and/or Memphis leave.

[StLouBlue]

I understand what you are saying, but I have a blurry vision I guess. I don't see SLU traveling for all sports to an east coast conference like the A10 or BE. Have you looked at the locations of where these teams are, only Xavier and Dayton of the A10 and Notre Dame in the BE could be called in SLU's region. I also don't see these 3 schools leaving their conference to join up with SLU, DePaul and whatever else remains in CUSA.

I hope SLU comes out in at least as good a situation as CUSA, but I don't expect that to happen. I see Louisville and Cincinnati gone because they want to upgrade conference for football. Memphis wants the same thing but may get left out because of their location, unless something opens up in the SEC. Marquette is probably the key for what will happen to SLU. If Marquette decides they don't want to go east--to BE or even A10, then keeping SLU, Marquette and DePaul together in CUSA or a new conference is a good start. If Marquette jumps to the BE and leaves SLU behind--then no matter how clear my vision is SLU will be taking a step backward.