A New Conference?

[Soderball]

9 minutes ago, Matty Light said:

When your Power 5 alma mater offers you the job you take it. We didn't really have a chance to keep Romar.

I know that. I'm making a point. We've been stuck with guys noone else wants.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

6 hours ago, rhagolf said:

I have been reading much from others about the talent demise in the A-10. It seems to have become an annual one-bid league. Geographically, other than Loyola-Chicago and Dayton, SLU doesn't fit in. If we can only be a member of a one-bid league, should we consider moving to one where opponents have some regional rivalry and travel difficulties are lessened? Maybe the OVC or Horizon? (No, I don't recommend The Valley, so lower the blood pressure.)

Honestly If I’m SLU the only way I leave the A10 is if SLU becomes the 31st NBA franchise. Just need to string together a few good seasons first. 

[kshoe]

4 hours ago, thetorch said:

Thanks

We've been following the path that you have laid out for nearly 50 years.  Where are the results?

Can you tell me another like program that this strategy has worked for?  Just one?  Marquette I guess?  They got the Wade final four and an alumni base that poured millions of dollars into their program.  They spend like a BCS football program, Marquette was spending more than our current budget 10 years ago.

Where are all the other transient programs that we've been around?  Charlotte, once a powerhouse now an also ran.  UAB, same.  Tulane, please.  Southern Miss, Temple, East Carolina, South Florida just to name a few.  The success story is Marquette.  Even the blue bloods we played with Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, all seem to have their best days behind them.  All of it stems from consistency, jumping from conference to conference.

Again the schools we envy have all played the game one way, but our fanbase is convinced that the way we have done it for 50 years will win out in the end.  It won't.  

Look at the MCC conference we used to play in.  We jumped ship once we established ourselves as a top 4 team in the conference, much like we have in the A10.  We left to greener pastures, not once, not twice, but 3 times.  We rivaled Xavier back then, we were much better than Butler & Loyola.  We've been in much better conferences than these other schools for the majority of the time?  Where is the success?  Xavier 20 something NCAA bids, multiple sweet sixteens, Butler multiple final fours, Loyola a final four.  We only have 8 NCAA tourney appearances since we joined the MCC.  Oral Roberts has 6.  

If playing in a better conference is the answer why did the teams that stayed in the lower conferences do better than us?  Why has one of them now gotten up to our level?  This should be an embarrassment, not a time to dig in even more on a plan that never worked.

I was a "strong" conference proponent for many years but with the A10's demise, the NETs' obvious bias against mid major conferences, and the promotion of the best mid major schools into major status it is time to consider a reset.  Either that or increase our budget to top of the Big East like numbers.

I think you are letting the random path that some teams took to success cloud the reality that every school you identified that we want to be like (Gonzaga, Xavier, Marquette, Butler and Creighton) is currently in the Big East except for Gonzaga which is only not in that conference because of geography. I don't count Gonzaga in these discussions because they are a unicorn that every catholic school dreams of being and its a miracle they are where they are.

The fact is every team we want to be like is in the Big East so I don't understand at all why you want to go in the opposite direction from the Big East. Xavier made it by dominating the A10 for over a decade. Marquette made it from a conference that was better than the A10. Butler made it by two magical final four runs and then going to the A10. 3 of the 4 teams on your list joined the Big East from the A10 or a better conference. Creighton made it by sustained success in the MVC and strong university connections. You brought up Loyola, they obviously prefer the MVC and later A10 over the Horizon.

You brought up the 50 yr history. As you have so well created threads on twitter, we did try to lower conferences moving from the Metro to the MCC. I don't know exactly how long we remained in the MCC before joining the Great Midwest but I do know how many NCAA tourneys we had during that time: 0.

Moving down in conferences in not the answer. Dominating the one you are currently in is.

[JMM28]

Butler is in the Big East by pure luck and timing. They had several years of good play in the Horizon, moved to the A10, and happened to get a generational coach to make two straight final fours at the perfect time. 
 

Xavier is probably the model to follow. They did really well in the A10 for an extended period of time. They lost coaches but replaced from internal or the same tree. 
 

Creighton did well in the MVC but spent and funded their programs at a high level. They were probably the best all around non P5 athletic department in the Midwest when they were invited. 

[thetorch]

10 hours ago, kshoe said:

I think you are letting the random path that some teams took to success cloud the reality that every school you identified that we want to be like (Gonzaga, Xavier, Marquette, Butler and Creighton) is currently in the Big East except for Gonzaga which is only not in that conference because of geography. I don't count Gonzaga in these discussions because they are a unicorn that every catholic school dreams of being and its a miracle they are where they are.

The fact is every team we want to be like is in the Big East so I don't understand at all why you want to go in the opposite direction from the Big East. Xavier made it by dominating the A10 for over a decade. Marquette made it from a conference that was better than the A10. Butler made it by two magical final four runs and then going to the A10. 3 of the 4 teams on your list joined the Big East from the A10 or a better conference. Creighton made it by sustained success in the MVC and strong university connections. You brought up Loyola, they obviously prefer the MVC and later A10 over the Horizon.

You brought up the 50 yr history. As you have so well created threads on twitter, we did try to lower conferences moving from the Metro to the MCC. I don't know exactly how long we remained in the MCC before joining the Great Midwest but I do know how many NCAA tourneys we had during that time: 0.

Moving down in conferences in not the answer. Dominating the one you are currently in is.

Did you know Butler won 20 games 14/16 seasons prior to joining the A10, under 4 coaches? They were not a flash in the pan.

Butler, Creighton, Xavier, Gonzaga all had more than a decade of success at lower level before breaking through and becoming consistent top 50 programs.

Marquette was the only school who got lucky. They actually had a similar haphazard path as we did, but they recruited Dwayne Wade. We've never had that and most likely never will.

When will we dominate the a10? I've been waiting for over 15 years to do this. The A10 is at its weakest point ever and we aren't close.

[thatskablamo]

16 hours ago, thetorch said:

Thanks

We've been following the path that you have laid out for nearly 50 years.  Where are the results?

Can you tell me another like program that this strategy has worked for?  Just one?  Marquette I guess?  They got the Wade final four and an alumni base that poured millions of dollars into their program.  They spend like a BCS football program, Marquette was spending more than our current budget 10 years ago.

.

Nail on the head… and consistently filling NBA-sized arenas. The coffers have been flush with cash to spend, the student body flocks to the arenas, they are a Jumpman-branded team, etc. Al Maguire is still revered as Christ with a Whistle…they make $$$ off the NIL of a man who has been dead for 22 years. Only at Marquette. Meanwhile, SLU sends kids from the UNews to opine whether or not they should sell merch that was made with child labor to the bookstore. We can’t compete even off the court with MU. 

[kshoe]

1 hour ago, thetorch said:

Did you know Butler won 20 games 14/16 seasons prior to joining the A10, under 4 coaches? They were not a flash in the pan.

Butler, Creighton, Xavier, Gonzaga all had more than a decade of success at lower level before breaking through and becoming consistent top 50 programs.

Marquette was the only school who got lucky. They actually had a similar haphazard path as we did, but they recruited Dwayne Wade. We've never had that and most likely never will.

When will we dominate the a10? I've been waiting for over 15 years to do this. The A10 is at its weakest point ever and we aren't close.

Butler doesn't get into the Big East, much less the A10, without those two runs to the championship game. The first run with Gordan Heyward was pretty legit, but still had two wins of 2 points and one win of 4 points. The second run was as an 8 seed and included last second baskets in the first two games just to get to the sweet 16 and an OT win in the Elite 8. Relying on deep runs in the randomness of the NCAA tournament to improve your program is the definition of lucky in my mind.

I think it's also worth noting all the programs that have been at the low to mid-major level take the first opportunity to move up when they have deep runs in the tourney. Butler (A10, Big East), Loyola (MVC, A10), George Mason (A10), Davidson (A10), VCU (A10), Marquette (Big East). So all these schools want to move UP in conference when they do well, but you are suggesting we should move DOWN so that maybe we can have a good run? Which will then give us the opportunity to move UP again, back to the A10? Or are you suggesting we just permanently stay in the Horizon league forever type thing?

[Bay Area Billiken]

SLU is not dropping down to a low con conference. While there is dated precedence, namely SLU moving from the rugged Metro to the then mid-major Midwestern City (now Horizon) in 1982, the SLU program was at rock bottom at the time, unable to compete in the Metro, in need of a major rebuild. The program is nowhere near that low level currently.

What SLU needs to do is be proactive and move up to the Big East. The Big East has already earned $13.5M in ‘23 NCAA Tourney Units with 3 teams still to earn more Units, as 3 are in the Sweet 16.  In contrast, the now Juan Bid A10 earned 1 NCAA Unit (VCU), estimated at $1.5M in total value, which trickles down to about $25K to SLU. 

The Power 5 has already earned an estimated $81M in ‘23 NCAA Units, with 8 teams still standing in the Sweet 16, all 8 to earn more Units. 
 

[JettFlight5]

2 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

SLU is not dropping down to a low con conference. While there is dated precedence, namely SLU moving from the rugged Metro to the then mid-major Midwestern City (now Horizon) in 1982, the SLU program was at rock bottom at the time, unable to compete in the Metro, in need of a major rebuild. The program is nowhere near that low level currently.

What SLU needs to do is be proactive and move up to the Big East. The Big East has already earned $13.5M in ‘23 NCAA Tourney Units with 3 teams still to earn more Units, as 3 are in the Sweet 16.  In contrast, the now Juan Bid A10 earned 1 NCAA Unit (VCU), estimated at $1.5M in total value, which trickles down to about $25K to SLU. 
 

Agreed, but it takes 2 to tango...and SLU has not proven on the court that they belong in the Big East. Hopefully the market size, inventory for TV, and a rising Bills program can get in at some point. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 minute ago, JettFlight5 said:

Agreed, but it takes 2 to tango...and SLU has not proven on the court that they belong in the Big East. Hopefully the market size, inventory for TV, and a rising Bills program can get in at some point. 

So SLU needs to prove it belongs.  SLU does that by winning. What I’m saying is SLU can be proactive, doesn’t have to await a BE invite. It’s like at the Bank, if you don’t ask, the answer is always No. 

[JettFlight5]

1 minute ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

So SLU needs to prove it belongs.  SLU does that by winning. What I’m saying is SLU can be proactive, doesn’t have to await a BE invite. It’s like at the Bank, if you don’t ask, the answer is always No. 

I think we are in agreement on your point. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

Torch’s idea is well taken. However, SLU doesn’t have the benefit of the time it would take to bear fruit. The just completed selection of the NCAA Tourney field, the transfer of 6 NCAA at large bids to the Power 5 + 1, is an ominous foreshadowing of what many of us see coming, the Power 5 Overlords splitting D-1 CBKB into 2 divisions like in Football. 
We need SLU to be above that cutoff line, not below it. 

[Lord Elrond]

First best thing for SLU is to get into the Big East.  We get there by winning and getting into NCAA tournament. The problem is, is the A10 now a one bid league going forward? If that’s the case, we need to win the conference tournament every year to get into the NCAA, so we can then advance in the NCAA tournament and prove we belong in the Big East. 

[willie]

1 minute ago, Lord Elrond said:

First best thing for SLU is to get into the Big East.  We get there by winning and getting into NCAA tournament. The problem is, is the A10 now a one bid league going forward? If that’s the case, we need to win the conference tournament every year to get into the NCAA, so we can then advance in the NCAA tournament and prove we belong in the Big East. 

I don't believe the A-10 is a one bid league going forward. History says I'm right. 

[cheeseman]

10 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

First best thing for SLU is to get into the Big East.  We get there by winning and getting into NCAA tournament. The problem is, is the A10 now a one bid league going forward? If that’s the case, we need to win the conference tournament every year to get into the NCAA, so we can then advance in the NCAA tournament and prove we belong in the Big East. 

This dream of the BE is just that a dream.  We have had plenty of time to prove ourselves and we have managed to not pull it off for whatever the reason.  Raising our level in the basketball world is a journey that we don't have the time anymore.  We pissed our chances away.  I believe this is what makes some on this board including me so disappointed.

[Lord Elrond]

15 minutes ago, willie said:

I don't believe the A-10 is a one bid league going forward. History says I'm right. 

The A10 was 3 bid or higher from 2008-2018, it was only 2 bids from 2019-2022, it was a one bid conference this year. The trend has been nothing but down, and it’s been a pretty steady trend line. If you look only at NCAA bids from mid-majors that weren’t conference winners, that number has fluctuated between 4-9 over the years. This year, for teams that weren’t conference tournament winners, there were 5 teams, none from the A10. In 2014, there were 5 A10 non-conf tournament winners in the A10, and only 4 from all other conferences.  The A10 has not bounced around up and down, it’s been on a steady downward trend. That’s the problem with the A10.

[willie]

6 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

This dream of the BE is just that a dream.  We have had plenty of time to prove ourselves and we have managed to not pull it off for whatever the reason.  Raising our level in the basketball world is a journey that we don't have the time anymore.  We pissed our chances away.  I believe this is what makes some on this board including me so disappointed.

Don't agree. As leagues expand they will be looking for additions. We are still a relatively large tv market. Biondi is gone. Budget is reasonable. I don't believe the dream is dead. 

[Taj79]

While there are trends within conferences, I think the A10 is on an identified downward trajectory.  If you believe, as some on here do, that it is the intent of the Power 5 +1 to monopolize as many at-large bids as possible, thereby NOT sharing the wealth, then the A10 is doing it's very best to help in that mission.  As Lord notes, the A10 has gone from three bids as late as 2018, to 2 bids from 2019 to 2022, to one bid this year.  And a lot of that is due to poor teams in the A10.  This situation has been pushed along by the recent decisions to allow transfers immediate eligibility and the advent of the NIL situation.  None of these situations favor any A10 teams going forward.  

In the case of the transfer portal, A10 teams, one tier below the Power 5+1, now can serve as the de facto minor leagues for the big boys.  If I'm RJ Luis, or Maximus Edwards, or any other All A10 freshman, what's my incentive to stay at an A10 school?  Conversely, what's my incentive to go?  Tre Mitchell.  Rhodey's Mitchell twins and Jacob Toppin.  Fordham's Nick Honor and Joel Soriano.  Bona's Iron Five.  All hit the highway upwards to Texas, West Virginia, Arkansas, Kentucky, Mizzou, St. John's, Iowa State and Florida.  I'd say 'get used to it.'  

On the flip side, who is coming to the A10?  Minor big school players like Khalid Moore, Wildens Levesque, Javon Pickett, Josh Nickleberry.  Or lower level guys like the Drame twins, Darryl Banks, Kyrell Luc, Connor Crabtree, Conner Kochera, Jason Roche and Chad Venning.  Can that work as a sustainable model?  It did one year for Mizzou so who's to say no.  But even if they do come in, it will take at least a year to get them to jell into a decent team for the most part (just look at Bonavenure).  So the race in the A10 becomes 15 teams fighting for the Juan Bid autobid every year in Brooklyn.  The A10 has inadvertently done yeoman's work in playing right into the Power 5+1 hands. 

Sure, some guys can and will come home.  Moore is a prime example.  Ditto Pickett.  Levesque followed his coach.  No one followed Archie Miller to Rhodey.  I can't wait to see what the p[ortal brings across the A10 next year.  Especially for Saint Louis University.

Then there is NIL.  I still have my doubts about us being able to do it but I have no doubt La Salle, Fordham, St. Joes and our other A10 bretheran cannot do what Ohio State, Tennessee, Kentucky and North Carolina are doing on that front.  So that drum will be banged slowly as well.  

To add insult to injury, the Power 5+1 are in such a state that they won't play any mid-major teams anywhere except in exempt and neutral situations.  The opportunity to play and then beat these teams become far and fewer between.  How does one enhance their schedule and thereby advance their NETs or SOSs and move into consideration  for Madness at-large bids (only to be dashed by those holding the power)?  A school can do only what it can do --- get a state-of-the-art arena, a Champions Center,  post 20 wins and so on.  Where has that been done?  And has it helped any?

The A10 appears to be a dead end right now ---- and advancing more that way then the other way.  And we are sturck.

[TheA_Bomb]

Much has been said about the vast conspiracy of the NCAA vs the Mid-majors to hoard all the bids.  Do you know our very own A10 Commissioner is on the selection committee?  There are 6 (P5+1) members and 6 others by my count. 

Current NCAA Men's Tournament Selection Committee 

Name	School/Conference	Position
Chris Reynolds₳	Bradley	Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics
Charles McClelland฿	Southwestern Athletic Conference	Commissioner
Dave Heeke	Arizona	Athletic Director
Bernadette McGlade	Atlantic 10 Conference	Commissioner
Martin Newton	Samford	Athletic Director
Jamie Pollard	Iowa State	Athletic Director
Bubba Cunningham	North Carolina	Athletic Director
Mark Coyle	Minnesota	Athletic Director
Tom Wistrcill	Big Sky Conference	Commissioner
Greg Byrne	Alabama	Athletic Director
Keith Gill	Sun Belt Conference	Commissioner
Barry Collier	Butler	Athletic Director

[AGB91]

9 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Much has been said about the vast conspiracy of the NCAA vs the Mid-majors to hoard all the bids.  Do you know our very own A10 Commissioner is on the selection committee?  There are 6 (P5+1) members and 6 others by my count. 

Current NCAA Men's Tournament Selection Committee 

Name	School/Conference	Position
Chris Reynolds₳	Bradley	Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics
Charles McClelland฿	Southwestern Athletic Conference	Commissioner
Dave Heeke	Arizona	Athletic Director
Bernadette McGlade	Atlantic 10 Conference	Commissioner
Martin Newton	Samford	Athletic Director
Jamie Pollard	Iowa State	Athletic Director
Bubba Cunningham	North Carolina	Athletic Director
Mark Coyle	Minnesota	Athletic Director
Tom Wistrcill	Big Sky Conference	Commissioner
Greg Byrne	Alabama	Athletic Director
Keith Gill	Sun Belt Conference	Commissioner
Barry Collier	Butler	Athletic Director

This is just another example of how bad McGlade is.

[Dr Bird]

12 minutes ago, AGB91 said:

This is just another example of how bad McGlade is.

I used to think McGlade should implement minimum facility standards.  My guess is she tried, but got major pushback from various university presidents. 

I think her priorities should be:

1. Better balance the west edge of the conference by adding 1-2 teams to the Dayton/SLU/Loyola western contingent

2. Re-align the conference into 2 or 3 regions for better scheduling / better rivalries

3. a mid-season / mid-major A10 vs ?? Showdown 

                  - ?? could be Mountain West?, West Coast? or MVC?

                   - 1 seed vs 1 seed, 2 seed vs 2 seed, etc

                   - not sure who does the seeding (above my paygrade)

[TheA_Bomb]

@Dr Bird

1. Agree that would be cool (Belmont?)

2. They changed scheduling to help the top teams get better match ups. This could be achieved with divisions as well to determine who you play across division

3. Yes, I've been wanting this too

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 hour ago, Lord Elrond said:

The A10 was 3 bid or higher from 2008-2018, it was only 2 bids from 2019-2022, it was a one bid conference this year. The trend has been nothing but down, and it’s been a pretty steady trend line. If you look only at NCAA bids from mid-majors that weren’t conference winners, that number has fluctuated between 4-9 over the years. This year, for teams that weren’t conference tournament winners, there were 5 teams, none from the A10. In 2014, there were 5 A10 non-conf tournament winners in the A10, and only 4 from all other conferences.  The A10 has not bounced around up and down, it’s been on a steady downward trend. That’s the problem with the A10.

Not all of this decline is the A10’s fault. The Power 5 Overlords have moved the goalposts. That is the biggest reason the A10 became a 2 and now Juan Bid league. 

[Cowboy II]

-the biggest reason VCU was the A10's lone participant in the Dance is because no team put themselves in a position to be selected and VCU won the conf tourney

-if a team wants to get in the Tourney then WIN GAMES and a lot of them

[Brighton]

I'll say it again, SLU needs to worry about remaining IN D1 before talking about pie in the sky scenarios of the BE accepting them. This AD along with the BOT are D3 material. Maybe NAIA.