2023 Offseason - Coaching Discussion Thread

[cheeseman]

29 minutes ago, brianstl said:

I think May overall has been a good AD, but better than Debbie Yow?  The woman who hired Spoon and had the program as a founding member of the Great Midwest. You know when we were leaving programs like Xavier behind in a crappy conference instead of the other way around.

Agree

[dennis_w]

17 minutes ago, DOC said:

No

I was out of reaction I should have said good post

[SLUDrew]

53 minutes ago, DOC said:

The program is on the brink of irrelevance? The last game of a disastrous season was a sellout. Ya we’re all ok with being UMSL. Wtf

Yes, this program is ABSOLUTELY on the brink of irrelevance. To the casual sports fan in St Louis we have become an afterthought at best when we are, with all due respect to Lindenwood and SIUE, the ONLY BASKETBALL SHOW IN TOWN. 

I'll give you an example, I was at a local sports bar for our A-10 tournament game against VCU. There were probably 20 TVS on showing various games. I had to frigging ask them to turn the SLU game on!!! This was in Webster Groves which is about 15 minutes from campus. You don't think we are an after thought?? 

Yes, Dayton was a sellout. However, I tried to GIVE AWAY tickets for about 10 games this year and most nights I couldn't give them away. I stopped even asking.  This is a metro area of close to 3 million and our arena sits 10,500. I bet even for the Dayton game you could have walked up and gotten a ticket despite it being deemed a "sellout" 

[Cowboy II]

-I listened to the replay of Frank from yesterday and Frank and Bob from this morning, there are a few things that I feel the need to post regarding these segments

-perhaps the second biggest is the Frank has to change his policy of not being critical of college athletes for their on-court performance to make his point of supporting Travis -- this tells me a lot

-Rammer said there are social media folks who claim to be fans-- I am not on social media other than looking at the scroll on the right side of the page on Billikens.com but from what I see those folks are fans, diehard fans

-Rammer also said if just a results centered thinking you might be right but it's not a very convincing arguement and Frank agrees --- the results I want are Tourney bids--- Rammer said it is silly to want Travis gone

-Rammer wondered if the program was loyal to a fault but not getting bigtime transfers for this past season to take minutes from JPerk and asked can you recruit over what you have? -- my answer is yes, I want the best team we can get, a coach can promise competition for playing time but can't promise playing time

-Frank mentioned $10mil, some have speculated that is the buyout amount

-Rammer said that with the first season, two Covid seasons and last season losing JPerk who was presumptive conf POY to hold those against the program is ridiculous 

-Rammers comment about NBA players was that we have to build our team like we are in the BEast with guys that will be in the NBA

-Frank said next year the buyout is significantly lower and Rammer said this is the challenge the program should have and this heat is what the program should have and it has to perform

-but I think the biggest thing was they expected an A season and we had a B season ---but from his OKST days and this past season this is what Travis delivers

-my question, so next year the roster will have 7 or more new players, does that give Travis a bye into being the coach in 2024-25 because it was a new team?

-I would love for us to start of run of 15 tournaments in 20 years, or better, under Travis and I would happily post I was wrong in my thoughts as I sit here today

 

[Matty Light]

4 minutes ago, SLUDrew said:

Yes, this program is ABSOLUTELY on the brink of irrelevance. To the casual sports fan in St Louis we have become an afterthought at best when we are, with all due respect to Lindenwood and SIUE, the ONLY BASKETBALL SHOW IN TOWN. 

I'll give you an example, I was at a local sports bar for our A-10 tournament game against VCU. There were probably 20 TVS on showing various games. I had to frigging ask them to turn the SLU game on!!! This was in Webster Groves which is about 15 minutes from campus. You don't think we are an after thought?? 

 

The program has no identity anymore.  The next coach will have to bring that. 

[TheBand]

14 minutes ago, SLUDrew said:

Yes, this program is ABSOLUTELY on the brink of irrelevance. To the casual sports fan in St Louis we have become an afterthought at best when we are, with all due respect to Lindenwood and SIUE, the ONLY BASKETBALL SHOW IN TOWN. 

I'll give you an example, I was at a local sports bar for our A-10 tournament game against VCU. There were probably 20 TVS on showing various games. I had to frigging ask them to turn the SLU game on!!! This was in Webster Groves which is about 15 minutes from campus. You don't think we are an after thought?? 

Yes, Dayton was a sellout. However, I tried to GIVE AWAY tickets for about 10 games this year and most nights I couldn't give them away. I stopped even asking.  This is a metro area of close to 3 million and our arena sits 10,500. I bet even for the Dayton game you could have walked up and gotten a ticket despite it being deemed a "sellout" 

And how many late season conference games were they running specials on tickets to get butts in the seats?  Quite a few.  

[TheA_Bomb]

8 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

1-Rammer said there are social media folks who claim to be fans-- I am not on social media other than looking at the scroll on the right side of the page on Billikens.com but from what I see those folks are fans, diehard fans

2-Rammer also said if just a results centered thinking you might be right but it's not a very convincing arguement and Frank agrees --- the results I want are Tourney bids--- Rammer said it is silly to want Travis gone

3-Rammer wondered if the program was loyal to a fault but not getting bigtime transfers for this past season to take minutes from JPerk and asked can you recruit over what you have? -- my answer is yes, I want the best team we can get, a coach can promise competition for playing time but can't promise playing time

4-Rammers comment about NBA players was that we have to build our team like we are in the BEast with guys that will be in the NBA

5-but I think the biggest thing was they expected an A season and we had a B season ---but from his OKST days and this past season this is what Travis 

 

1. I do no social media either besides looking at the scroll.  So I'm not sure what he's talking about.  

2. They literally keep score.  Yes it's results oriented that's what sports are,  winners and losers. That is the biggest metric.

3. Why would you not try to bring in the best you can.  The best teams stack talent.  If you can do it. 

4. Why didn't anyone think of this before? Just get players destined for the NBA!  This was some silly commentary. 

5. Expected an A season got a D season more like it. Expectations exist for a reason. 

[cheeseman]

17 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

-I listened to the replay of Frank from yesterday and Frank and Bob from this morning, there are a few things that I feel the need to post regarding these segments

-perhaps the second biggest is the Frank has to change his policy of not being critical of college athletes for their on-court performance to make his point of supporting Travis -- this tells me a lot

-Rammer said there are social media folks who claim to be fans-- I am not on social media other than looking at the scroll on the right side of the page on Billikens.com but from what I see those folks are fans, diehard fans

-Rammer also said if just a results centered thinking you might be right but it's not a very convincing arguement and Frank agrees --- the results I want are Tourney bids--- Rammer said it is silly to want Travis gone

-Rammer wondered if the program was loyal to a fault but not getting bigtime transfers for this past season to take minutes from JPerk and asked can you recruit over what you have? -- my answer is yes, I want the best team we can get, a coach can promise competition for playing time but can't promise playing time

-Frank mentioned $10mil, some have speculated that is the buyout amount

-Rammer said that with the first season, two Covid seasons and last season losing JPerk who was presumptive conf POY to hold those against the program is ridiculous 

-Rammers comment about NBA players was that we have to build our team like we are in the BEast with guys that will be in the NBA

-Frank said next year the buyout is significantly lower and Rammer said this is the challenge the program should have and this heat is what the program should have and it has to perform

-but I think the biggest thing was they expected an A season and we had a B season ---but from his OKST days and this past season this is what Travis delivers

-my question, so next year the roster will have 7 or more new players, does that give Travis a bye into being the coach in 2024-25 because it was a new team?

-I would love for us to start of run of 15 tournaments in 20 years, or better, under Travis and I would happily post I was wrong in my thoughts as I sit here today

 

I wonder if after this year there is some trigger that reduces he buy out significantly.  It is not that unusual I would imagine.  No I would not think that Ford gets a pass next year because of all the new players that have to come in.  If that is what happens then there are no institutional expectations and that is sad.

[cheeseman]

8 minutes ago, TheBand said:

And how many late season conference games were they running specials on tickets to get butts in the seats?  Quite a few.  

I have no problem with this practice even the Cardinals do a dynamic pricing model.  You can get a ticket to some games for $10 and last year it was $5.  Selling single game  tickets at a discount is not an unusual practice.

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, TheA_Bomb said:

@DeSmetBilliken interesting tid bit.

Bigger money bigger expectations. 

Does the board consensus feel that May's job security is now linked to Ford's success or failure next season?

I think that they are now linked.  May decided to keep Ford so he's sticking his neck out.  Now if the buy out money wasn't available then he maybe safe despite more underachievement next season. But if the buyout money was offered and Ford does what he's done for 25 years,  May is likely to be putting his house up for sale too.

No I don’t.
Men’s BB is only one branch, yes a very important branch, in his job. 

[SLUDrew]

Just now, cheeseman said:

I have no problem with this practice even the Cardinals do a dynamic pricing model.  You can get a ticket to some games for $10 and last year it was $5.  Selling single game  tickets at a discount is not an unusual practice.

Right but his point was still valid. The game didn't sell out organically. For a lot of these games there were BOGO offers or deep discounts, etc

 

[billikenfan05]

5 minutes ago, SLUDrew said:

Right but his point was still valid. The game didn't sell out organically. For a lot of these games there were BOGO offers or deep discounts, etc

 

Yep, and we don't generally sell out games unless it's a weekend, around a holiday or time when out of town alumni are in town. Attendance is crappy, given that they often just give tix away. 

 

[Schasz]

17 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

No I don’t.
Men’s BB is only one branch, yes a very important branch, in his job. 

But I'm pretty sure it is the only one that provides the real revenue for all the other sports to exist. If Ford does eke this one out now and SLU has another year where they are once again watching the NCAA Tourney then both should get Fired. May's 2 hoops hires have done nothing to improve SLU hoops and he will need to go too!

[BIG BILL FAN]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

I think May overall has been a good AD, but better than Debbie Yow?  The woman who hired Spoon and had the program as a founding member of the Great Midwest. You know when we were leaving programs like Xavier behind in a crappy conference instead of the other way around.

I wonder if people realize Charlie Spoonhour only had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins, won only 57% of his games, and had a 44-50 record in conference play in his 7 years at SLU… and basically stopped recruiting his last two years…why do I think today’s fans would not be too impressed?

[billikenfan05]

11 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

I wonder if people realize Charlie Spoonhour only had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins, won only 57% of his games, and had a 44-50 record in conference play in his 7 years at SLU… and basically stopped recruiting his last two years…why do I think today’s fans would not be too impressed?

Can someone explain why it's different, in a respectful manner. I'm too tired to tell him about recruiting to Kiel and West Pine Gym and the conference strength at the time. 

[gobillsgo]

Just now, billikenfan05 said:

Can someone explain why it's different, in a respectful manner. I'm too tired to tell him about recruiting to Kiel and West Pine Gym.

Not to mention the Great Midwest and mid-90s Conference USA make the A10 look like a D2 conference. 

[billikenfan05]

Just now, gobillsgo said:

Not to mention the Great Midwest and mid-90s Conference USA make the A10 look like a D2 conference. 

Yeah I went back and fixed that once it hit me.

[HoosierPal]

23 minutes ago, Schasz said:

But I'm pretty sure it is the only one that provides the real revenue for all the other sports to exist. If Ford does eke this one out now and SLU has another year where they are once again watching the NCAA Tourney then both should get Fired. May's 2 hoops hires have done nothing to improve SLU hoops and he will need to go too!

Where have you been. You mied the boat big time. 

[Schasz]

3 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Where have you been. You mied the boat big time. 

OK then please tell me the sport that is the revenue producer at SLU since you appear to be on the Boat!!!

[brianstl]

37 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

-I listened to the replay of Frank from yesterday and Frank and Bob from this morning, there are a few things that I feel the need to post regarding these segments

-perhaps the second biggest is the Frank has to change his policy of not being critical of college athletes for their on-court performance to make his point of supporting Travis -- this tells me a lot

-Rammer said there are social media folks who claim to be fans-- I am not on social media other than looking at the scroll on the right side of the page on Billikens.com but from what I see those folks are fans, diehard fans

-Rammer also said if just a results centered thinking you might be right but it's not a very convincing arguement and Frank agrees --- the results I want are Tourney bids--- Rammer said it is silly to want Travis gone

-Rammer wondered if the program was loyal to a fault but not getting bigtime transfers for this past season to take minutes from JPerk and asked can you recruit over what you have? -- my answer is yes, I want the best team we can get, a coach can promise competition for playing time but can't promise playing time

-Frank mentioned $10mil, some have speculated that is the buyout amount

-Rammer said that with the first season, two Covid seasons and last season losing JPerk who was presumptive conf POY to hold those against the program is ridiculous 

-Rammers comment about NBA players was that we have to build our team like we are in the BEast with guys that will be in the NBA

-Frank said next year the buyout is significantly lower and Rammer said this is the challenge the program should have and this heat is what the program should have and it has to perform

-but I think the biggest thing was they expected an A season and we had a B season ---but from his OKST days and this past season this is what Travis delivers

-my question, so next year the roster will have 7 or more new players, does that give Travis a bye into being the coach in 2024-25 because it was a new team?

-I would love for us to start of run of 15 tournaments in 20 years, or better, under Travis and I would happily post I was wrong in my thoughts as I sit here today

 

 

23 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

1. I do no social media either besides looking at the scroll.  So I'm not sure what he's talking about.  

2. They literally keep score.  Yes it's results oriented that's what sports are,  winners and losers. That is the biggest metric.

3. Why would you not try to bring in the best you can.  The best teams stack talent.  If you can do it. 

4. Why didn't anyone think of this before? Just get players destined for the NBA!  This was some silly commentary. 

5. Expected an A season got a D season more like it. Expectations exist for a reason. 

 

I am sure by social media they mean this board.  As we saw earlier in this thread people around this program want to believe this site is social media that is out there influencing the kiddos.  It is like the last two decades didn't happen.  It isn't 2005 anymore.  People under 30 consume and seek out their information in ways that would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of members of this board.  They aren't seeking out this site and they sure as in the hell aren't typing things like Billikens.com into the address bar to get their information about Billiken athletics. 

It isn't the same world information wise that is was even five years ago much less the two decades ago some of these people and Rammer seem to be stuck in.  I am not saying it is a good or bad thing, but it is the thing.  Hell, I remember when Facebook first become available  to everyone.  There was big debate on here if it is was creepy or not to friend the players and people we were recruiting.  If I remember correctly the overall consensus was it was sort of creepy, now no one gives a thought about following either on social media and in fact following these people is pretty much expected as the thing to do as a fan.  Now Facebook isn't even a thing young people are influenced by anymore and hasn't been for years, but the dinosaurs out in Billiken country want really want to believe this site is a major social media influencer on the people we are recruiting.  It is not.  It has zero impact.

[JMM28]

22 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

I wonder if people realize Charlie Spoonhour only had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins, won only 57% of his games, and had a 44-50 record in conference play in his 7 years at SLU… and basically stopped recruiting his last two years…why do I think today’s fans would not be too impressed?

Spoon had 3 tournament appearances in those 7 years. He finished last-2nd-2nd in the 3 years of GMWC against Memphis, Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul, Dayton, and UAB. Had 2 crappy years and then back to the NCAA and a 4th place in CUSA in year 3 of that conference.

 

1 hour ago, Cowboy II said:

-Frank mentioned $10mil, some have speculated that is the buyout amount

 

If this is anywhere close to accurate, it would be cause to fire Chris May. As it is, I think May's reluctance to make a change will have him back as an Associate AD of Tickets at some mid level Big Ten school. 

[BIG BILL FAN]

17 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Can someone explain why it's different, in a respectful manner. I'm too tired to tell him about recruiting to Kiel and West Pine Gym and the conference strength at the time. 

Now we’re making excuses, remember that’s not allowed. By the way, Highmark and Claggett were Grawer recruits.

[BigMouthBilliken]

3 minutes ago, brianstl said:

 

 

I am sure by social media they mean this board.  As we saw earlier in this thread people around this program want to believe this site is social media that is out there influencing the kiddos.  It is like the last two decades didn't happen.  It isn't 2005 anymore.  People under 30 consume and seek out their information in ways that would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of members of this board.  They aren't seeking out this site and they sure as in the hell aren't typing things like Billikens.com into the address bar to get their information about Billiken athletics. 

It isn't the same world information wise that is was even five years ago much less the two decades ago some of these people and Rammer seem to be stuck in.  I am not saying it is a good or bad thing, but it is the thing.  Hell, I remember when Facebook first become available  to everyone.  There was big debate on here if it is was creepy or not to friend the players and people we were recruiting.  If I remember correctly the overall consensus was it was sort of creepy, now no one gives a thought about following either on social media and in fact following these people is pretty much expected as the thing to do as a fan.  Now Facebook isn't even a thing young people are influenced by anymore and hasn't been for years, but the dinosaurs out in Billiken country want really want to believe this site is a major social media influencer on the people we are recruiting.  It is not.  It has zero impact.

Well said. Hell if I thought Ford or the players read this site I would have been more critical of them! They are paid professionals now after all!

[billikenfan05]

3 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

Now we’re making excuses, remember that’s not allowed. By the way, Highmark and Claggett were Grawer recruits.

No we’re not. We’re making comparisons and you’re not conversing in good faith. That’s fine, Spoon had to convince them to stay. I’ve directly asked both of those guys, recorded on video and audio, about the coaching change and their decisions and Spoon absolutely had to sway their decision. 

[brianstl]

34 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

I wonder if people realize Charlie Spoonhour only had 3 seasons of 20 or more wins, won only 57% of his games, and had a 44-50 record in conference play in his 7 years at SLU… and basically stopped recruiting his last two years…why do I think today’s fans would not be too impressed?

Charlie Spoonhour led the Billikens to more NCAA tournaments than any other coach in Billiken history.  Spoon coached the the Billikens in more NCAA tournament games than any other coach in Billiken history.  

Try again.