2023 Offseason - Coaching Discussion Thread

[BIG BILL FAN]

2 hours ago, wgstl said:

He has averaged 5th in the A10 excluding year one at SLU.  5th is only 2 spots better than what I'm thinking we could see with a whole new team next year. That's not some far fetched idea.  He also finished 5th just a season ago, its not like its even been a long time. 

 

There is no evidence unless you go off of recent portal pick ups.  That's tough to gauge since it was mainly back up spots.  

His average finish is actually 4.3, kind of you to bump it up to 5th however.. 

[DOC]

7 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

Let's put it this way: we should have finished ahead of Fordham and Dayton, not 'tied'

I agree. I'm not absolving him of anything, and 2nd or 4th doesn't matter, we failed. But, the only people using the tournament seeding to determine where you finished in the conference are on this board. Illinois tied with 4 teams. I guarantee all of them will claim a 5th place finish. None of them, or SLU for that matter, are going to use their seed for the final standings. They will use the actual standings.

[DeSmetBilliken]

43 minutes ago, gobillsgo said:

Sometimes you have to take a step backward to move forwards.  I don’t want to lose Vice and Medley, but if that’s required to move us out of this constant cycle of mediocrity then you have to do it. 
 

If they fire Ford, it’s because they’ve got someone they really like lined up. They aren’t going to do it without a plan.  A high level coach could turn this around quickly now that transfers don’t sit.  And even if it takes a year of being mediocre, if it gets us moving the program in the right direction again then so be it. As others have said, there’s absolutely no guarantee we are close to the top 4 in conference even if we keep Ford. We are gonna lose more minutes and scoring than probably any team in the country, and we have nothing to show for it. 

This is basically where I am too. While a number of us are disappointed how this team has performed relative to expectations for a few years now, and Chris May’s suggestion 2 weeks ago that everything was just going great and we should be excited about it made us want to throw things, this isn’t a situation like when we fired Crews 7 years ago. The program isn’t a dumpster fire in need of someone to put out the fire, so it’s a question of whether there is someone out there that we could hire that will come and likely better advance the program than Ford. 

If that person exists and is interested in coming to SLU, then Ford may be gone. If not, then that’s the argument for Ford to stay. 

[someoneelse]

With NIL, Ford’s sizable recruiting prowess is devalued. Billiken Victory Fund is the recruiter, largely. Sure, you can’t be a jerk, but NIL does the recruiting work for you. 
 

Therefore you need a coach who can teach players and strategize games. I don’t know who that is, but I’m confident it isn’t the present coach. 
 

I appreciate all the work he has put in and definitely wish him well wherever his future endeavors lead him. 

[slu72]

3 minutes ago, someoneelse said:

With NIL, Ford’s sizable recruiting prowess is devalued. Billiken Victory Fund is the recruiter, largely. Sure, you can’t be a jerk, but NIL does the recruiting work for you. 
 

Therefore you need a coach who can teach players and strategize games. I don’t know who that is, but I’m confident it isn’t the present coach. 
 

I appreciate all the work he has put him and definitely wish him well wherever his future endeavors lead him. 

This might be the best post on here. Well done, sir, well done.!

[someoneelse]

4 minutes ago, slu72 said:

This might be the best post on here. Well done, sir, well done.!

Thank you. The needed skill set for HCs is changing/sharpening. 
 

A friend went to Marquette in the 70s and said an assistant ran the practices with Al Maguire doing not much. That assistant should now be a head coach.
 

Just an anecdote that I use to support my thesis. Don’t take it too seriously. 

[Schasz]

2 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

MY GUY, Tennessee has 5 star recruits averaging 5 minutes & <2 points a game with 4 star Walk-Ons warming the bench.

Your thought process is antiquated. The portal and NIL has changed the game completely, we're long past the time where a coaching change meant a full rebuild. Could we take a step back, maybe. But it's far less likely than I think you're estimating.

Hmm...Can you tell me who the current UT 5 Star Vols are averaging 5 minutes and less than 2 points a game. Their current roster has two 5 stars Julian Philips and Josiah James Jordan and both average more than 5 points per game. Julian is a Frosh and Jordan is a Sr. who has had some injury time out of the lineup. Also who are the 4 Star walk ons. They have 2 Frosh 4 Stars and neither get much playing time seeing as the roster has players who have been with the team 2 or more years.

[stmdragons]

7 minutes ago, Schasz said:

Hmm...Can you tell me who the current UT 5 Star Vols are averaging 5 minutes and less than 2 points a game. Their current roster has two 5 stars Julian Philips and Josiah James Jordan and both average more than 5 points per game. Julian is a Frosh and Jordan is a Sr. who has had some injury time out of the lineup. Also who are the 4 Star walk ons. They have 2 Frosh 4 Stars and neither get much playing time seeing as the roster has players who have been with the team 2 or more years.

Can you take the Tennessee women’s basketball talk to a different thread please?

[BIG BILL FAN]

17 minutes ago, someoneelse said:

With NIL, Ford’s sizable recruiting prowess is devalued. Billiken Victory Fund is the recruiter, largely. Sure, you can’t be a jerk, but NIL does the recruiting work for you. 
 

Therefore you need a coach who can teach players and strategize games. I don’t know who that is, but I’m confident it isn’t the present coach. 
 

I appreciate all the work he has put in and definitely wish him well wherever his future endeavors lead him. 

That makes no sense at all. Regardless of NIL, players are still going to need to be recruited, in fact it’s going to be more imperative to excel at this, as literally every player has got to be recruited every year. Other schools will have NIL money as well, relationships will always be important. Fortunately, our so called majority will be striving to let all these potential recruits know exactly what they think of our coach, right Ford haters?

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

1 hour ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

Fair didn't realize the women had some nit success. Not trying to minimalize their accomplishment as I'm an equal opportunity SLU athletics fan lol 

No problem, I'm probably being a bit too venomous. I had a weird day and came off too defensively.

[BigMouthBilliken]

2 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

Potential, no guarantee????? 

Nothing is guaranteed. Take this season as an example. Perkins returning from injury, Yuri* “coming back” after indicating he’s going to Tennessee. A weak A10 year. All the makings for a special year.  And what did we get? A 4th place finish (behind Fordham!) and an embarrassing display against VCU in the semis. All for the cool price of many millions of dollars. 
 

Many have lost confidence in Travis Ford. May is by all accounts clueless based on his own public comments. The future of the program and the league appears totally bleak. Something needs to change. 
 

*In hindsight Yuri would have been better off going to Knoxville and would be dancing in the Sweet Sixteen. But then again he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to become the St. Louis Pickleball poster boy!

[Billiken Rich]

1 hour ago, slu72 said:

This might be the best post on here. Well done, sir, well done.!

Yeah but it's just not true. People take less money all the time to work for and with people they like.

[billikenfan05]

1 hour ago, Schasz said:

Hmm...Can you tell me who the current UT 5 Star Vols are averaging 5 minutes and less than 2 points a game. Their current roster has two 5 stars Julian Philips and Josiah James Jordan and both average more than 5 points per game. Julian is a Frosh and Jordan is a Sr. who has had some injury time out of the lineup. Also who are the 4 Star walk ons. They have 2 Frosh 4 Stars and neither get much playing time seeing as the roster has players who have been with the team 2 or more years.

Jesus Christ. Is THIS a bit? This one has to be a bit. 
Who wants to tell him? 

[Billiken Rich]

8 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Jesus Christ. Is THIS a bit? This one has to be a bit. 
Who wants to tell him? 

Oh to have absolute power, so I could corrupt some of these biotches.........

[SLU_Nick]

There hasn’t been this much anticipation about a Billiken event in years.  
 

the silence is absolutely deafening.  

[someoneelse]

4 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

That makes no sense at all. Regardless of NIL, players are still going to need to be recruited, in fact it’s going to be more imperative to excel at this, as literally every player has got to be recruited every year. Other schools will have NIL money as well, relationships will always be important. Fortunately, our so called majority will be striving to let all these potential recruits know exactly what they think of our coach, right Ford haters?

I disagree. One place of employment offers X, one place offers 1.5X for the same job. The 1.5 is going to get the employee, nine times out of ten, regardless of Thai food Tuesdays.  Building a program on paying less than your peers is a tough way to go. 
 

What is going to be important is talent identification and development. Who can identify and develop the next Ja Morant/David West/Gordon Hayward/Jordan Goodwin?  Those coaches will get an edge in getting a little better talent, with a slightly less pay scale. 
 

I do agree that you will have to keep your team together every year, and that will have some recruiting-esque intangibles involved, but it will also come down to PT, winning and, I believe above all, money. 
 

Edited to add, yes, all schools will have NIL money, but they won’t have the same amount. Will SLU have more or less than Dayton/VCU/St. Bonaventure?  I have no idea and no way to reliably find out. 
 

I think of it like a law firm, as that labor market has a tiered salary structure. National firms, like Bryan Cave pay one salary, regional firms pay a lower salary, local firms pay a lower salary than that. The national firms typically get to choose what law students they want first (because they pay more), then the regionals, then the locals. 
 

Crudely extrapolating to the labor market for 18 year old college basketball players, Kansas, Duke etc. will be the national firms, SEMO, Lindenwood etc. will be the local firms with a whole lot of schools in between. So, who in the middle can identify the 18 year old basketball player who will become the best 21 year old basketball player and spend wisely to get/keep the 18 year old. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by someoneelse

[Soderball]

8 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

Here are the red flags or green flags I'm looking for if Ford is retained and this is the discussion, IMHO, that should take place:

1. Does he shake up his staff? You don't get to underachieve and get the green light to continue operating in the same capacities.

2. Where has our assistant and basketball ops staff fallen short? I'd say in game strategy as well as sports performance/conditioning. I want to see Travis bring in some new blood on his coaching staff, I don't just mean let a guy go and bring in another guy he's worked with in the past. I want someone brand new to Ford. I want someone with  differing ideas and coaching philosophies. Obviously a strategic and offensive basketball mind, I know WPB or Chapley has mentioned to me that they would like Matt McCall as an assistant. Bring in a bunch of DOGS on defense and let McCall draw up some sets to make it work on offense. I would like to see a change in strength and conditioning. Way too many nagging injuries this season. Two major ACL injuries last year between men and women, one this year.

3. More on the culture: what kind of player is Travis Ford bringing in? He experimented with this roster of gunners and it didn't work, get back to the Goodwin/French toughness on defense is my biggest wish. This program has been at it's best when scoring against is like pulling teeth.

 

So there's some talking points and my opinion on those points. IMO if Travis is retained and doesn't make ANY changes from this year and we fail to make the tournament, then he 100% needs to be gone after next season.

Again: he. Is. The. Coach.

Travis Ford decides and everyone else obeys. You don't like it? Fire him. This is how coaches in the college game operate. He will choose his staff, players, strategy.

Not you, not me, not Chris may, not Fred Pestello, not troy Robertson, not dr chaifetz. Only C T F. The sooner people get this the better.

[Soderball]

4 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

That makes no sense at all. Regardless of NIL, players are still going to need to be recruited, in fact it’s going to be more imperative to excel at this, as literally every player has got to be recruited every year. Other schools will have NIL money as well, relationships will always be important. Fortunately, our so called majority will be striving to let all these potential recruits know exactly what they think of our coach, right Ford haters?

Your takes just get worse and more clueless. You have absolutely no idea what you are watching.

[Soderball]

4 hours ago, DOC said:

I agree. I'm not absolving him of anything, and 2nd or 4th doesn't matter, we failed. But, the only people using the tournament seeding to determine where you finished in the conference are on this board. Illinois tied with 4 teams. I guarantee all of them will claim a 5th place finish. None of them, or SLU for that matter, are going to use their seed for the final standings. They will use the actual standings.

"4 = 2" - DOC logic. anytime this guy posts just remember this ludicrous claim. Haha.

[gister]

4 hours ago, someoneelse said:

With NIL, Ford’s sizable recruiting prowess is devalued. Billiken Victory Fund is the recruiter, largely. Sure, you can’t be a jerk, but NIL does the recruiting work for you. 
 

Therefore you need a coach who can teach players and strategize games. I don’t know who that is, but I’m confident it isn’t the present coach. 
 

I appreciate all the work he has put in and definitely wish him well wherever his future endeavors lead him. 

If the NIL does the recruiting, then how about put the money it would take to buy out a coach and hire a new one and put it in the NIL and hire good players?  (Not my original idea, but Frank's on Channel 5).  All the money that would be needed for a new coach would do a world of good to get better players.  I wonder how many of the "voices for change" on here have ever or will ever contribute $25 to the Billiken Victory fund.

[Soderball]

7 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

MY GUY, Tennessee has 5 star recruits averaging 5 minutes & <2 points a game with 4 star Walk-Ons warming the bench.

Your thought process is antiquated. The portal and NIL has changed the game completely, we're long past the time where a coaching change meant a full rebuild. Could we take a step back, maybe. But it's far less likely than I think you're estimating.

Glad to see at least some sanity survives here on billikens.com

Honestly without transfer portal and NIL the Billikens are starting a three year rebuild program next year and need to fire Ford even faster after this five year plan tanked with absolutely zero success. He just wasted at least 3 years of player development for.. this. Sad!

 

[Soderball]

6 hours ago, BigMouthBilliken said:

I would gladly finish 7-8th for a year or two with the potential to rebuild and start fresh. Clean house. We lose a few 3 star recruits? Big whoop, they’d probably be soft anyways. Better that scenario than the almost guaranteed continued mediocrity we have come to expect. I’ve seen enough of Ford rolling around the court flailing his arms like a jagoff

Ask Missouri. They brought a new coach who had talent ready to roll from day 1. Poaching a coach means we have a good shot to land their players too. This is the way forward. Rebuild quick and win now. Fuok waiting. That's for old geezers still playing 80s basketball. Booo. Lame. just win, baby.

 

[DOC]

6 minutes ago, Soderball said:

"4 = 2" - DOC logic. anytime this guy posts just remember this ludicrous claim. Haha.

We finished tied for 2nd. That's ludicrous? Haha 

[Soderball]

Just now, DOC said:

We finished tied for 2nd. That's ludicrous? Haha 

 

[Billiken Rich]

1 hour ago, Soderball said:

Ask Missouri. They brought a new coach who had talent ready to roll from day 1. Poaching a coach means we have a good shot to land their players too. This is the way forward. Rebuild quick and win now. Fuok waiting. That's for old geezers still playing 80s basketball. Booo. Lame. just win, baby.

 

How much failure at MU before they finally picked right?