NIT 32 A10 0

[Slu let the dogs out?]

3 hours ago, An A-10 fan said:

It was obvious back in December that the A-10 was only going to get one bid this season based on their mediocre showing in November.  But that's the problem, why is so much emphasis placed on what are tantamount to "preseason" games played 120 days before the tournament starts? Player rotations used in November, often bear little resemblance  to the lineups that coaches use in November.  For the league to get only one NCAA bid is insult enough, but to be shut out of the NIT is a joke, especially since one of its member schools made a run to the NIT finals last season by winning 3 consecutive road games against Power 5 teams.  Maybe the conference should be split up and every team goes its own way?    Maybe your team gets invited to the Big East?  It's a large market where the Big East has no presence right now.

I doubt the Big East wants a program that apparently defines success as perennial 4th place finishes in a downward trending league fighting for NIT bids. Even if we'd also be bringing a market size larger than 7 current BE members. Honestly curious...if this is truly how the AD feels why are we even in the A10? If they have no desire to elevate the biggest revenue generator and greatest marketing tool SLU has, go back to the MVC. We would've finished the season with the 4th best NET in the MVC (Per Lord Elrond)...we'd fit right in! At least in the MVC 100%, all 12 schools, are within a 5.5 hour drive versus 13%, 2 of 15, of A10 schools. Bring back old rivalries. I'd rather have 150 Bradley fans at Chaifetz than 5 Bona parents. Makes for a better gameday atmosphere. If we're content with mediocrity let's at least keep that mediocrity in the midwest. 

[thunderdan]

2 hours ago, slu72 said:

I had not heard UD opted out when I posted. I did see where UNC had. Mea Culpa. But did they know they were going to be selected? 

I’m bet they knew they weren’t going to be selected, and put out the statement to save face. Brilliant. 

[billiken_roy]

19 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

I doubt the Big East wants a program that apparently defines success as perennial 4th place finishes in a downward trending league fighting for NIT bids. Even if we'd also be bringing a market size larger than 7 current BE members. Honestly curious...if this is truly how the AD feels why are we even in the A10? If they have no desire to elevate the biggest revenue generator and greatest marketing tool SLU has, go back to the MVC. We would've finished the season with the 4th best NET in the MVC (Per Lord Elrond)...we'd fit right in! At least in the MVC 100%, all 12 schools, are within a 5.5 hour drive versus 13%, 2 of 15, of A10 schools. Bring back old rivalries. I'd rather have 150 Bradley fans at Chaifetz than 5 Bona parents. Makes for a better gameday atmosphere. If we're content with mediocrity let's at least keep that mediocrity in the midwest. 

i hope the athletic department sees the fact that apathy like this is starting to settle in.   show us that there is a real want to win and win big.   that takes more than a declaration that ford can recruit.   a lot of us have been saying that since he got here.   

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

maybe geography matters some?   i.e. not as many good teams out west to give away losses?   so their fake NET ratings come to the top?   just spit balling.  

Accordin to Pomeroy's non-conference strength of schedule ratings on the whole MWC teams played much tougher out of conference schedules than A10 teams.  So MWC teams were playing more good team's than A10 teams.  

NCSOS ratings:

A10

• VCU-46
• Dayton-223
• SLU-58
• Duquesne-287
• Fordham-363
• Davidson-208
• Mason-227
• Ricmond-253
• St. Joe’s-210
• Bonnies-278
• UMass-197
• GW-339
• La Salle-242
• Loyola-290
• URI-255

 

MWC

• SDSU-17
• USU-78
• BSU-126
• Nevada-73
• New Mexico-175
• UNLV-250
• SJSU-162
• Colorado State-99
• Fresno St-134
• Air Force-359
• Wyoming-176

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

This answer is getting warm.  

There are less teams in the West.  The Power 5 Pac-12 (and the WCC) still play Mountain West schools, by geographic necessity.

But let's never let the narrative get in the way of the facts, especially on this Board.

The PAC 12 had 8 games against MWC teams.  The A10 had 10 games against ACC teams and 9 against SEC teams.

The A10's problem isn't getting games against top conference opponents.  The A10 just isn't as good as it was six years ago. Dayton, Davison, the Bonnies and SLU have come down or stagnated while no one else has yet raised themselves to tournament level contender.  We only have the conference's now clear flagship program at VCU to carry the conference's torch.

[Lord Elrond]

So the question is, was this past year an anomaly, and will the A10 return to what it was (multi-bid league, 2-3 NCAA bids per year)? Or will it stay as it is, and a one-bid league the new normal for the A10?

[thatskablamo]

5 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The PAC 12 had 8 games against MWC teams.  The A10 had 10 games against ACC teams and 9 against SEC teams.

The A10's problem isn't getting games against top conference opponents.  The A10 just isn't as good as it was six years ago. Dayton, Davison, the Bonnies and SLU have come down or stagnated while no one else has yet raised themselves to tournament level contender.  We only have the conference's now clear flagship program at VCU to carry the conference's torch.

And in our lone appearance v the MWC, we lost. Sucks to even think secular VCU is the torchbearer in a private/Catholic school-laden conference. 

[Soderball]

SLU is a sad sorry program at this point. Big budget prices, low budget results.

[JMM28]

12 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The PAC 12 had 8 games against MWC teams.  The A10 had 10 games against ACC teams and 9 against SEC teams.

The A10's problem isn't getting games against top conference opponents.  The A10 just isn't as good as it was six years ago. Dayton, Davison, the Bonnies and SLU have come down or stagnated while no one else has yet raised themselves to tournament level contender.  We only have the conference's now clear flagship program at VCU to carry the conference's torch.

Great point. There just aren't any great teams. A few good. A few average. Most are dogs. Loyola coming in and crapping all over themselves didn't help matters either. 

Silver lining - if Fordham can maintain and grow their level of success from this year, that is a huge win. They've historically been really bad. The teams in this years cellar have at least a fairly recent track record of decent besides La Salle. 

[brianstl]

5 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

So the question is, was this past year an anomaly, and will the A10 return to what it was (multi-bid league, 2-3 NCAA and 2-3

Well, you would think with Rhode Island and UMass stepping up their coaching game that they should be improving.  Fordham could really step up if they can manage to harness the momentum they built this year.  At this point you have to really question where SLU and Dayton are actually headed.  Too early to make a call on Davidson.  The Bonnies have Schmidt, so they probably will bounce back at some point. Richmond is Richmond.  The next time they are ready to fire Mooney, he will take them to the sweet sixteen.  

[Bay Area Billiken]

22 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The PAC 12 had 8 games against MWC teams.  The A10 had 10 games against ACC teams and 9 against SEC teams.

The A10's problem isn't getting games against top conference opponents.  The A10 just isn't as good as it was six years ago. Dayton, Davison, the Bonnies and SLU have come down or stagnated while no one else has yet raised themselves to tournament level contender.  We only have the conference's now clear flagship program at VCU to carry the conference's torch.

How many Mountain West games were against WCC teams, including Gonzaga and St. Mary’s? They play each other. 
 

The A10 has 15 teams. The Mountain West has only 11 teams. That fact affects the calculation and the narrative. 
 

Dayton with NET 78 qualified for an NIT bid, even after the NIT auto bids are included in the field. Dayton turned down post-season play. 
 

This being said, SLU belongs in the Big East, not the A10. 
 

 

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, Billiken Rich said:

We have to game the system just like everyone else.  You have to schedule some weak teams and beat the hell out of them to increase your BS offensive efficiency.  It's classless and just mean but beating Lindenwood and NCA&T Coastal Northeast by 30 is better than Beating Memphis by one and losing to Auburn by one.  If that's what you have to do so be it.......

This is fine but what about those who will complain about the schedule not having any good teams on it to play.  I hear you and don't have any issue with it but I can assure you some will whine about the unappealing home schedule - we heard it all the time before and yes you can try to educate them but I doubt it will help.

[Soderball]

7 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

How many Mountain West games were against WCC teams, including Gonzaga and St. Mary’s? They play each other. 
 

The A10 has 15 teams. The Mountain West has only 11 teams. That fact affects the calculation and the narrative. 
 

Dayton with NET 78 qualified for an NIT bid, even after the NIT auto bids are included in the field. Dayton turned down post-season play. 
 

This being said, SLU belongs in the Big East, not the A10. 
 

 

Brian is fundamentally right that the issue is that the A10 just isn't that good. Every team underperformed expectations in out of conference, and then noone did particularly spectacularly in conference play. We have one bid and it's a 12 seed. We are equal to the Missouri Valley this year, which also aren't very good. It's terrible. One of the worst years since Jim Crews was unleashing his reign of terror upon Billiken nation.

[Bay Area Billiken]

26 minutes ago, Soderball said:

Brian is fundamentally right that the issue is that the A10 just isn't that good. Every team underperformed expectations in out of conference, and then noone did particularly spectacularly in conference play. We have one bid and it's a 12 seed. We are equal to the Missouri Valley this year, which also aren't very good. It's terrible. One of the worst years since Jim Crews was unleashing his reign of terror upon Billiken nation.

This is a conclusion. No one disputes the A10 underperformed. But show the real underlying data, not just the resultant 1 bid. And you know what- you cannot because elements of that Power 5 rigged NET remain cloaked in mystery. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

36 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

This is fine but what about those who will complain about the schedule not having any good teams on it to play.  I hear you and don't have any issue with it but I can assure you some will whine about the unappealing home schedule - we heard it all the time before and yes you can try to educate them but I doubt it will help.

They will have to accept that the schedule under the NET with its “efficiency” component must get easier. Cite Mizzou and its Betty Crocker Award non-conference schedule of a whole baking sheet of cupcakes. 

[Soderball]

2 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

This is a conclusion. No one disputes the A10 underperformed. But show the real underlying data, not just the resultant 1 bid. And you know what- you cannot because elements of that Power 5 rigged NET remain cloaked in mystery. 

Both Sagarin and Pomeroy are much better systems. The NET is absolutely a tool designed to split D1 into 1A and 1AA. That's it's only purpose and it is achieving it.

You aren't hearing that dispute from me. However the A10 was also just not very good this year. The A10 should never have been a 1 bid league even with the worst of the committee's dismantling of us. We are on the wrong side of that 1A/1AA problem that is coming now. SLU is at real risk of irrelevance permanently IMO. The red "danger" sirens should be going off all over campus. This is just like when we were on the wrong side of the Big East expansion, which is where we should be and we are not, because Jim Crews.

[JMM28]

4 minutes ago, Soderball said:

Both Sagarin and Pomeroy are much better systems. The NET is absolutely a tool designed to split D1 into 1A and 1AA. That's it's only purpose and it is achieving it.

You aren't hearing that dispute from me. However the A10 was also just not very good this year. The A10 should never have been a 1 bid league even with the worst of the committee's dismantling of us. We are on the wrong side of that 1A/1AA problem that is coming now. SLU is at real risk of irrelevance permanently IMO. The red "danger" sirens should be going off all over campus. This is just like when we were on the wrong side of the Big East expansion, which is where we should be and we are not, because Jim Crews.

Yeah A10 looks really similar on Kenpom too. A10 is still bad in RPI too. Its just a bad (hopefully) year. But the trend line isn't encouraging for SLU or the A10 in general. 

[slufan13]

I think ranking systems like the NET are designed to help power schools especially with more of those conferences going to 20 game schedules but I also think the NET did a pretty good job rating/ranking A10 teams this year. We were a 1 bid conference and deserved to be. The teams just weren't good. 

[Lord Elrond]

So is the A10 going to recover from where it is now, or is it a one-bid league from now on because of the NET?  If we think it’s a one bid league going forward, why stay in it?  The answer everyone would prefer is for SLU to join the Big East, but what happens if the Big East expands without us?

[thatskablamo]

13 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

So is the A10 going to recover from where it is now, or is it a one-bid league from now on because of the NET?  If we think it’s a one bid league going forward, why stay in it?  The answer everyone would prefer is for SLU to join the Big East, but what happens if the Big East expands without us?

Great point; the easy answer is that you have to let the administration know that if the next BE expansion train leaves without us (again), that any sort of financial contributions, whether that be currently or even something like leaving the university a piece of the estate when said donor passes is an absolute pipe dream. None of us has what Richard Chaifetz has, but collectively, I think there’s a play here. 

We speak of Ford and May needing to go… but what has Dr. Fred done for us to even get to the bargaining table with Marquette, Creighton, Georgetown, etc.?

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 hour ago, Soderball said:

Both Sagarin and Pomeroy are much better systems. The NET is absolutely a tool designed to split D1 into 1A and 1AA. That's it's only purpose and it is achieving it.

You aren't hearing that dispute from me. However the A10 was also just not very good this year. The A10 should never have been a 1 bid league even with the worst of the committee's dismantling of us. We are on the wrong side of that 1A/1AA problem that is coming now. SLU is at real risk of irrelevance permanently IMO. The red "danger" sirens should be going off all over campus. This is just like when we were on the wrong side of the Big East expansion, which is where we should be and we are not, because Jim Crews.

Your points are in large measure valid, and duly noted.  I share the same concerns.  The NET is a diabolical tool.  I will have more on this after a bit of additional study re the NCAA Tourney field that was selected.

This being said, the reason SLU is not in the Big East is not because of Jim Crews.  So it is clear, I am not defending him. 

SLU missed the cut twice, (1) in '05 when it parked itself in the Atlantic 10, but saw its Athletic Director at the time land the Athletic Director's position at South Florida, which was admitted into the old Big East, and (2) in the first quarter of '13, when SLU had its second straight (of 3) NCAA Tourney seasons.  Creighton was picked for the 10th Big East slot, following Butler and Xavier.

The various reasons SLU didn't get in are the subjects of beyond educated speculation, theories, beyond theories, etc.  But the Big East is where SLU belongs, with more of its peer institutions and more in its geographical region.

 

[Cowboy II]

57 minutes ago, thatskablamo said:

Great point; the easy answer is that you have to let the administration know that if the next BE expansion train leaves without us (again), that any sort of financial contributions, whether that be currently or even something like leaving the university a piece of the estate when said donor passes is an absolute pipe dream. None of us has what Richard Chaifetz has, but collectively, I think there’s a play here. 

We speak of Ford and May needing to go… but what has Dr. Fred done for us to even get to the bargaining table with Marquette, Creighton, Georgetown, etc.?

-I hope he has done something but why would we know?

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 hour ago, Lord Elrond said:

So is the A10 going to recover from where it is now, or is it a one-bid league from now on because of the NET?  If we think it’s a one bid league going forward, why stay in it?  The answer everyone would prefer is for SLU to join the Big East, but what happens if the Big East expands without us?

The A10 really needs a NET consultant or consultants to figure out what it has done and is doing wrong.  Then the A10 needs to give guidance re scheduling to its schools, that need to follow the guidance. The MVC reportedly hired RPI consultants back in the day.  The Power 5 didn't like that the MVC "cracked the code."

[David King]

1 hour ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

They will have to accept that the schedule under the NET with its “efficiency” component must get easier. Cite Mizzou and its Betty Crocker Award non-conference schedule of a whole baking sheet of cupcakes. 

Of course, Mizzou beat ranked Illinois, Kentucky, Arkansas, Iowa State, and Tennessee (twice), while also beating cupcake SIU-E by 25. Not sure how much their easy non-conference schedule had to do with their 7 seed in the NCAA tournament.

The Billikens can't afford to play too many cupcakes in the no-conference schedule, and when they do, they better kick a$$!

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 hour ago, slufan13 said:

I think ranking systems like the NET are designed to help power schools especially with more of those conferences going to 20 game schedules but I also think the NET did a pretty good job rating/ranking A10 teams this year. We were a 1 bid conference and deserved to be. The teams just weren't good. 

I think both VCU and Dayton were NCAA Tourney caliber teams, and that both were undervalued by the NET.  Even with all the issues SLU had, I think SLU was an NIT caliber team, and also undervalued by the NET.

What I observed is virtually no traction in the NET could be made during conference season.  VCU finished with a NET of 53, made some strides in the NET, but not enough to have been picked as an NCAA At Large had it not snared the A10's automatic bid.  Dayton finished with NET of 78, which would have made the NIT cut.  SLU finished with NET of 99.

Contrast that SLU NET with SLU's RPI of 53.  Uh huh.