A-10 Refereeing

[cheeseman]

5 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I'm glad you posted this.  I knew of the alliance, but it has grown since I last heard.  When posters complaint about the A10 officials, they don't realize that these are also ACC/Big East etc. officials.  So, who do you want to officiate your games? High school refs?  Look at the NBA games, they issue 2-minute reports on close games, and always list multiple missed calls.  Last night's Lakers/Mavs game shows mistakes are made at every level.   

How about having the players call the fouls on each other, like what is done on the outside courts? 

There is a growing lack of officials in all levels.  It's very easy to complain, but no one wants to pick up a whistle and try officiating.    

Incompetence in referees in the A10 doesn't make it OK just because the same incompetence is in other leagues.  I agree it is not an easy job but what I have always been told is if it was easy everyone would do it.  The big problem is inconsistency.

[willie]

How hard can it be? I have never missed a call from my end zone seat. 

[billiken_roy]

35 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

How about having the players call the fouls on each other, like what is done on the outside courts? 

couldnt have been any worse than what we saw Wednesday night.   that was the worst i have ever witnessed at a billiken game.

[billiken_roy]

if these college refs are truly making 4 figures per game for 3 or 4 nights a week for college basketball, i could easily tolerate the fan, player and coach verbal abuse for that!    work 5 months a year and then water your flower garden for the next 7 months.   nice gig if you can get it!

[Gremio14]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

if these college refs are truly making 4 figures per game for 3 or 4 nights a week for college basketball, i could easily tolerate the fan, player and coach verbal abuse for that!    work 5 months a year and then water your flower garden for the next 7 months.   nice gig if you can get it!

Any chance you were the fellow a couple of rows up from the Bills bench giving the refs absolute hell Wednesday night? Dude was feeling it!

[cheeseman]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

if these college refs are truly making 4 figures per game for 3 or 4 nights a week for college basketball, i could easily tolerate the fan, player and coach verbal abuse for that!    work 5 months a year and then water your flower garden for the next 7 months.   nice gig if you can get it!

Do they have to pay their expenses/travel?

[willie]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

if these college refs are truly making 4 figures per game for 3 or 4 nights a week for college basketball, i could easily tolerate the fan, player and coach verbal abuse for that!    work 5 months a year and then water your flower garden for the next 7 months.   nice gig if you can get it!

I think the top guys are more like 5 or 6. 

[JMM28]

8 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Do they have to pay their expenses/travel?

They pay their own expenses during regular season games because they're all independent contractors. A lot of the bigger names will go all over the country and fly, but a majority drive game to game. 

For MTE tournaments they can get room and travel as part of their compensation usually. I assume conference tourneys are the same way. 

For NCAA/NIT I believe the NCAA pays their travel and lodging. 

[Billikenbooster]

22 minutes ago, Gremio14 said:

Any chance you were the fellow a couple of rows up from the Bills bench giving the refs absolute hell Wednesday night? Dude was feeling it!

Was that you, Zach? Man when you were in 102, I often cringed when you got started.

mhg

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, gobillsgo said:

It’s definitely a thankless job. But it’s also the career path they chose. No one forced them into reffing. They should be held accountable for poor performance just the same as any other occupation. 
 

I’ll never feel bad for refs at SLU games, because as a whole, our fan base is definitely on the more tame side.  It has to get really bad before the majority of people are on the refs. Watch a Mizzou or Dayton home game. One questionable call against the home team and the entire arena is up in arms.  I took more abuse reffing 7th and 8th grade CYC for $16/game than refs at Chaifetz get. 

I appreciate your history of reffing 7th and 8th.  I never reffed hoops, but did for volleyball and umped baseball.  Thankless and yes, I quit.

I am curious to hear what your solution would be.  If 'they are held accountable for poor performance', what do you do?  Fire them, fine them?  Then what?  After those disciplined leave, who fills the void? 

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, cheeseman said:

Incompetence in referees in the A10 doesn't make it OK just because the same incompetence is in other leagues.  I agree it is not an easy job but what I have always been told is if it was easy everyone would do it.  The big problem is inconsistency.

What is your solution?   Easy to point out an issue.  Difficult to solve the problem.

[gobillsgo]

11 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I appreciate your history of reffing 7th and 8th.  I never reffed hoops, but did for volleyball and umped baseball.  Thankless and yes, I quit.

I am curious to hear what your solution would be.  If 'they are held accountable for poor performance', what do you do?  Fire them, fine them?  Then what?  After those disciplined leave, who fills the void? 

I don’t know much about how refs are scheduled/compensated/graded (if they’re even graded on performance at all.)

But if they’re part of a “referee alliance” as a Brian said, surely there has to be some sort of leadership or management over these guys.   I don’t know if they have any sort of disciplinary system in place (I doubt it).  But at the very least, a formal complaint should be made, and the three refs from Wednesday should be prohibited from refereeing any further games involving SLU.    

[cheeseman]

15 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

What is your solution?   Easy to point out an issue.  Difficult to solve the problem.

Don't know what the solution is and it is not my job to do so.  Yes I still have the right to point out the problem because the price of my ticket does so.

[gobillsgo]

Just now, cheeseman said:

Don't know what the solution is and it is not my job to do so.  Yes I still have the right to point out the problem because the price of my ticket does so.

Vegas style justice… take em out back and smack em around a little bit.  Let them know if we see them in town again the conversation is gonna go differently.

 

 

 

 

[White Pelican]

59 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Do they have to pay their expenses/travel?

Yes. Unless something has changed, they are individual contractors and get paid a fixed amount. They are responsible for travel arrangements and cost, hotel if needed etc.

[cheeseman]

21 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I appreciate your history of reffing 7th and 8th.  I never reffed hoops, but did for volleyball and umped baseball.  Thankless and yes, I quit.

I am curious to hear what your solution would be.  If 'they are held accountable for poor performance', what do you do?  Fire them, fine them?  Then what?  After those disciplined leave, who fills the void? 

I also never really refereed basketball but I have done baseball and soccer.  Yes you get a lot of complaints but you know that when you go into it.  One time my son who was 15 at the time was working a soccer game and one team had a parent who was very abusive.  I had stayed to watch the game because I had to drive and pick my son up so it didn't make any sense not to stay.  My son simply ignored the guy but he just kept getting louder and more abusive.  At half time I went to the coach of that team and told him if he did not get the parent to stop his abusive behavior I would simply pull my son and the game would be over.  I also told him I would report the team to the league and file a complaint.  The coach was very understanding and he went to the parent and told him he had to stop or leave.  To my surprise the other parents of the team's players backed the coach up and the guy left.  My point is I know how hard it is to referee but it is like any other job there are parts that are bad and good.  I would think if a ref is not performing well then you can do one of two things - suspend him from the alliance or schedule less games so it hits him in the pocket book.  No one expects all the calls to be perfect but we do expect consistency.  

[gobillsgo]

10 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

I also never really refereed basketball but I have done baseball and soccer.  Yes you get a lot of complaints but you know that when you go into it.  One time my son who was 15 at the time was working a soccer game and one team had a parent who was very abusive.  I had stayed to watch the game because I had to drive and pick my son up so it didn't make any sense not to stay.  My son simply ignored the guy but he just kept getting louder and more abusive.  At half time I went to the coach of that team and told him if he did not get the parent to stop his abusive behavior I would simply pull my son and the game would be over.  I also told him I would report the team to the league and file a complaint.  The coach was very understanding and he went to the parent and told him he had to stop or leave.  To my surprise the other parents of the team's players backed the coach up and the guy left.  My point is I know how hard it is to referee but it is like any other job there are parts that are bad and good.  I would think if a ref is not performing well then you can do one of two things - suspend him from the alliance or schedule less games so it hits him in the pocket book.  No one expects all the calls to be perfect but we do expect consistency.  

This kind of behavior is unfortunately very common at the youth level, where it’s often kids themselves doing the reffing.   Really sad that the guy would choose to leave rather than just stop himself from hurling verbal abuse at a child. 

[dennis_w]

17 minutes ago, White Pelican said:

Yes. Unless something has changed, they are individual contractors and get paid a fixed amount. They are responsible for travel arrangements and cost, hotel if needed etc.

when i had some direct knowledge of ref's  which was 20 plus years ago, it was about $1000 per game

[White Pelican]

It's a hard job. I think the hardest part is the block/charge call. They added the little circle under the net to (supposedly) make it easier there.

It's a hard job. However, how did all three miss an obvious to everyone travel call on Oduro when both of his feet left the floor?? They looked like idiots.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, Gremio14 said:

Any chance you were the fellow a couple of rows up from the Bills bench giving the refs absolute hell Wednesday night? Dude was feeling it!

no i sit in section 102 directly ACROSS from the end of the visitors bench.   i did have a few choice comments for the refs Wednesday night though.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, cheeseman said:

Do they have to pay their expenses/travel?

i do not know.   i am thinking they do.   hightower had his own plane and used to fly to his games and thus said he rarely had to spend the night.   hightower was also the head administrator at Edwardsville high school so one can imagine the coin he was putting away between both well paid gigs.

[White Pelican]

Just now, dennis_w said:

when i had some direct knowledge of ref's  which was 20 plus years ago, it was about $1000 per game

I read some on the subject of how they are hired and how much they are paid, and that too was several years ago. At the time, the Big Boy conferences were paying something like 2000 a game and the smaller ones were paying 1000 to 1500.

The interesting thing was, the NCAA (at least at that time) was paying a smaller amount for the tournament games than most were getting from the leagues. So the best refs made less money working a March Madness game than they got during the regular season.

[billiken_roy]

22 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

 No one expects all the calls to be perfect but we do expect consistency.  

this

[willie]

37 minutes ago, gobillsgo said:

I don’t know much about how refs are scheduled/compensated/graded (if they’re even graded on performance at all.)

But if they’re part of a “referee alliance” as a Brian said, surely there has to be some sort of leadership or management over these guys.   I don’t know if they have any sort of disciplinary system in place (I doubt it).  But at the very least, a formal complaint should be made, and the three refs from Wednesday should be prohibited from refereeing any further games involving SLU.    

I follow former long time referee Ron Zetcher on Facebook. He has talked a lot on how the system works or use to work anyway. Every league has a supervisor of officials. And yes they are graded. They are rewarded or demoted by performance. Being assigned to tournament games is one way. Young referee's trying to get more games would be an example. I believe that schools do have imput into which referees they don't want. 

[dlarry]

One thing they could and should do is have them answer questions from the media.