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25 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

But it’s the constantly new and unique ways to shoot yourself in the foot that they keep coming up with that makes it so interesting. So they over the years they take away the small scholarships they used to give out, then take away the tiny credit they used to give, and now expect them to show up anywhere on little notice with no pay  (despite the fact that it’s becoming more and more an alumni thing do to other changes mentioned earlier). And when the band director says anything, they sweep him under the rug, nothing to see here. And the band is great, always entertaining.  This isn’t an issue for Chris May, this is an issue for Dr Fred Pestello himself to address.  Otherwise…

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Pestello…another incompetent goof who botched What Should Not Be Mentioned.

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1 minute ago, BC1764 said:

Pestello…another incompetent goof who botched What Should Not Be Mentioned.

I was with you up until now. Pestello has plenty to be criticized for, but May plays Grima to his King Theoden when it comes to any non-donor complaints.

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22 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if the BoT cared about athletics you might have a point.   they do not and likely never will.   Chris May is the best AD SLU has had in my Billiken fandom.   Be careful what you wish for in this regard.

She wasn't here long, but it is hard to argue with Debbie Yow's track record.  

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8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

She wasn't here long, but it is hard to argue with Debbie Yow's track record.  

Would be nice to have an AD that isn't a businessperson playing as someone who cares about athletics. A former coach would be amazing.

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In the age of NIL, there’s no reason we can’t compensate the band. 
 

Even worse though, is taking away college credit and/or modest scholarships. For a private university (that charges an incredible amount for tuition), this is a drop in a very large bucket. 
 

Unacceptable.

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5 minutes ago, thunderdan said:

In the age of NIL, there’s no reason we can’t compensate the band. 
 

Even worse though, is taking away college credit and/or modest scholarships. For a private university (that charges an incredible amount for tuition), this is a drop in a very large bucket. 
 

Unacceptable.

Speaking of, we’ve yet to hear their plan on that while Dayton, UMass, and the rest have passed them by.

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1 hour ago, BC1764 said:

They tried that with ex Big Red Jim Bakken.

which made absolutely no sense.   i suspect they (the BoT) thought bakken's name recognition could bring in donations.   that never happened.

of course not much our BoT does makes sense to us outsiders.   and the BoT doesnt appear is going to explain/defend their actions as we arent worthy of such.  only those in that circle are that entitled. 

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1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

which made absolutely no sense.   i suspect they (the BoT) thought bakken's name recognition could bring in donations.   that never happened.

of course not much our BoT does makes sense to us outsiders.   and the BoT doesnt appear is going to explain/defend their actions as we arent worthy of such.  only those in that circle are that entitled. 

Not sure of this but we might not of had a Board of Trustees back then. Having a lay board is relatively new. That said yes Bakken was hired to raise money. We paid for a membership to Algonquin CC. Idea was to play golf and raise money. He did one of the two. John Kadlec the Missouri assistant AD was the runner up. 

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13 hours ago, DeSmetBilliken said:
So here’s the story. SLU’s never been great with logistics, but for years it never really affected the band, other than dealing with some simple annoyances. Things started changing this year, when the athletics department started asking for much more of their time. By that I mean the band was always a basketball only band, with maybe a volleyball game or 2 thrown in if it was doable. This fall, the athletics department started asking them to play at more games and maybe some events, frequently on short notice (48 hours). This increased expectation was unsustainable for many people, and several students dropped band during the fall. Our director met with athletics department officials to discuss this issue, specifically that it was creating a mental health issue for members, which include current SLU students. The athletics department did nothing in response to address these concerns.

Our director determined that he was no longer comfortable working with an organization that refused to provide adequate support, so he tendered his resignation recently. Tonight was his last men’s basketball game. He was told by SLU that they were going to announce that he was retiring during a timeout tonight. He asked repeatedly that this not be done, and that he didn’t want them to make a spectacle of him, but SLU did it anyway. What makes it worse is that by calling it a “retirement” it glosses over the actual reason for the resignation. 
 

Several of us, myself included, likely played our last game tonight. Admittedly I’m a part-time alumni player who plays a few games a year when the students go on break, so I’m not a huge loss, but there are others who are bigger losses who won’t return. Some will stay and see what happens after the first of the year.

I don't really know what opinion to have about this, because I don't have information that others might have.  I have always wondered why other schools' bands seem to be made up of students, while our seems to be at least half or more non-students.  Knowing why this is and and having other facts would inform my opinions.  So....

1. Why is our band have so many older folks when other bands seem to be just students?

2. Do other schools pay their band members?  I have to think that the members of large marching bands at big football schools don't get paid, otherwise, that would be a monumental expense.  If they put in all that time just for the love of being in a band and playing for their school, why should our band members get paid?  If other bands are paid, then our folks should be paid too.

3. Do other schools give more class credit to their students than our band members get?  When I was at SLU, I was on the Mock Trial team.  There was a class that you took that you received credit for if you were a member of the Mock Trial team.  I think you received 2 to 3 credits per semester.  This created incentive to participate on the team.  If SLU is not giving kids who play instruments proper incentive to participate in the band, then it needs to.

4. What sort of budgets to other schools assign to their bands?  If SLU's band is not being financially supported in the same way that the bands are at other schools, that needs to be fixed.

5. What requirements are expected of bands at basketball centric schools like ours?  If other bands are expected to be at every basketball game and a few events for other sports, then ours should also.  If not, then we should back off and let the just do the basketball games.

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2 hours ago, OkieBilliken said:

I thought Bakken did well as Grawer started to put together decent recruiting the classes.  I remember him leading the band at that amazing NIT game against Southern Miss.   Yates was always embarrassing!   

Bakken was not a good AD.  He was let go for incompetence if I remember correctly.  He let a guy working the  stats on the floor  wear a Missouri sweatshirt and Bakken got roasted for it also given that he let it stand.

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7 hours ago, BrettJollyComedyHour said:

Band Director is paid. Everyone else is volunteering their time for next to nothing in return. Students used to get a modest scholarship each semester until a few years ago when they discontinued it. Pep band is/was also a class one could take at the University to go towards fine arts requirements at 0.5 a credit hour per semester. The only requirement was to show up to a certain number of games.

 

E: I'll add here, too, that the director uses his own money for instrument repairs, new equipment, new drums, etc. He used to have a standing P.O. at a music shop which the athletic department used to cover. Most of what you see on the stand was paid for out of pocket by his director salary, which is not much.

All the money the SLU AD brings in, the basketball palace with private chefs for guys who lose at home to SIUE, and SLU cannot give a modest scholarship to the kids volunteering their time for the pep band and being the best part of the game day experience(often better than the trash that was on the court) !?

 

Fire the whole admin. Wtf.

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Sigh.

There were many points over the years where I thought Austin would finally hang up the coat and call it a day, few SLU basketball fans have put their heart and soul into every single game the way Austin has over the last ~10 years since taking over for Mike Beskala. Beskala retired from the job early, for a variety of reasons, but probably was glad to be leaving when he did. Austin was the primary reason the band was able to maintain its enthusiasm and soul for the past decade, despite continual challenges from the people that should have been supporting him. Every year something was being taken away, like playing time, space, funding for new instruments, etc. And yet, Austin was there, every single game. His passion was to make SLU basketball games a fun atmosphere for everyone. He also had a full time job and this was more akin to a volunteer position with a stipend. As mentioned above, he often paid for things out of his own pocket, but it was because of his love for the band and SLU basketball. 

I like to think Austin could just set aside the lack of appropriate compensation or respect from AD because he loved what he did, but every year seemed to be a new series of issues. There were a few points back in 2017-2019 where they threatened to fire him because he was causing too many "problems" for them by pushing back on various BS (like threatening to have scholarships removed, reducing funding, taking playing time during games away, micromanaging from AD staff who were non musicians, telling us what songs we should play and ones we weren't "allowed" to, etc.). Like I said, I am very surprised he stuck around for this long, not many would have. He always had the band's back, and we had his. I doubt really anyone will show up now without Austin at the helm. He was the heart and soul of the World's Greatest Pep Band. 

2 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

I don't really know what opinion to have about this, because I don't have information that others might have.  I have always wondered why other schools' bands seem to be made up of students, while our seems to be at least half or more non-students.  Knowing why this is and and having other facts would inform my opinions.  So....

1. Why is our band have so many older folks when other bands seem to be just students?

2. Do other schools pay their band members?  I have to think that the members of large marching bands at big football schools don't get paid, otherwise, that would be a monumental expense.  If they put in all that time just for the love of being in a band and playing for their school, why should our band members get paid?  If other bands are paid, then our folks should be paid too.

3. Do other schools give more class credit to their students than our band members get?  When I was at SLU, I was on the Mock Trial team.  There was a class that you took that you received credit for if you were a member of the Mock Trial team.  I think you received 2 to 3 credits per semester.  This created incentive to participate on the team.  If SLU is not giving kids who play instruments proper incentive to participate in the band, then it needs to.

4. What sort of budgets to other schools assign to their bands?  If SLU's band is not being financially supported in the same way that the bands are at other schools, that needs to be fixed.

5. What requirements are expected of bands at basketball centric schools like ours?  If other bands are expected to be at every basketball game and a few events for other sports, then ours should also.  If not, then we should back off and let the just do the basketball games.

1. Around 2011-2012, there were a ton of students signing up to play in the band. At our largest, we were about 120 band members strong in 2013. Since around 2016 the number of students signing up for the band gradually dwindled. But many alumni, even grad students, would stay on as volunteers to help fill much needed brass sections. Hard to say the exact reasons for fewer students getting involved in band. It just seemed like there was less enthusiasm among new undergrads for any extracurriculars that weren't viewed as significant "resume boosters."

2. Yes, but often in the form of a scholarship and was often highly variable from school to school. I appreciated the small extra scholarship money, but it was never really as important as just being part of a really fun and special group of people. It wasn't really make or break for most students, and certainly not the main reason most people joined the band. 

3. We received a half credit per semester. Not bad when you added it up over 4 years. 

4. Only a few schools have much more substantial budgets. Places like G Mason and VCU fund their bands fairly well and pay the directors full time salaries. I think VCU band actually protested a number of years back until the university agreed to pay their director as a full time staff member. They also have many band members who are students in the music school there.  At SLU we don't have a music school and most of the players don't play anywhere besides pep band. 

5. Key word being "requirement." For an all volunteer band, there should be no requirements. And if there were any being levied against Austin and band members then, well, I guess this is what will happen and we will see how AD squirms now that their good thing they took for granted is now gone. But in general, it varies from school to school. You have football and non football schools. Football schools usually have the marching band AND the pep band (I knew a guy who played in Notre Dame marching full time and then pep band in the offseason). The marching band members receive a substantial stipend and scholarship, and play at various functions around the universities. It's a full time job, and extremely intense during the season. Then you have non football schools, which only have a pep band. VCU and George Mason, for example, play at a good number of their sporting events, i.e. basketball (mens and women's), volleyball, soccer, etc. But again, they are pretty well funded by relative pep band standards. Most other places just play at mens and women's basketball games. 

 

All in all, a sad day for SLU basketball. Austin was a treasure and hard to imagine them finding a replacement in the next 1.5 weeks. Most band members will not return. 

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1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

I don't really know what opinion to have about this, because I don't have information that others might have.  I have always wondered why other schools' bands seem to be made up of students, while our seems to be at least half or more non-students.  Knowing why this is and and having other facts would inform my opinions.  So....

1. Why is our band have so many older folks when other bands seem to be just students?

The simple answer is that they have been allowed to for years. Our directors have created a tight-knit community that has welcomed people to continue playing at any age. From a musical perspective, a number of the non-students are quite good, which allows the band to play at a higher level than is probably typical of a school like SLU that doesn't have a robust music program. 

For me personally, I've been a part-time (sometimes more part-time than others) alumni member of the band for 11 years. My position has always been that if me being in the band is getting in the way of a student being able to be in the band, I need to leave. To my knowledge, that has never actually happened. In some cases, alumni members have actually learned how to play new instruments because there were zero or very few current students in the band playing those instruments. This again allows for the band to play better music because of proper instrumentation.   

2. Do other schools pay their band members?  I have to think that the members of large marching bands at big football schools don't get paid, otherwise, that would be a monumental expense.  If they put in all that time just for the love of being in a band and playing for their school, why should our band members get paid?  If other bands are paid, then our folks should be paid too.

This is one that I don't know specifically because I've only been in band at SLU. My assumption was always that marching band members typically received some sort of scholarship, particularly because it always looked to be more intensive than playing in a basketball pep band. From a quick Google search, it appears that a least some schools are providing scholarships to band members which range from a little over what SLU used to give when I was in school, to quite a bit more than what they used to give when I was in school.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I think this would be a common opinion of the non-students: I never had any expectation that I would be paid for being in the band as a non-student. Any advocacy we are doing is primarily for the benefit of the current students. 

3. Do other schools give more class credit to their students than our band members get?  When I was at SLU, I was on the Mock Trial team.  There was a class that you took that you received credit for if you were a member of the Mock Trial team.  I think you received 2 to 3 credits per semester.  This created incentive to participate on the team.  If SLU is not giving kids who play instruments proper incentive to participate in the band, then it needs to.

As I noted above, when I was a student, we got a scholarship of I think $250 per semester. At some point, that stopped. Possibly at the same time, students were allowed to enroll in Pep Band as a course for I think 0.5 credits per semester. This was created to provide additional music playing opportunities within the music department, or possibly an opportunity. From what I can tell, SLU has 4 musical ensembles for instrumentalists (not vocalists), of which Pep Band is 1. Apparently SLU now has a Fine Arts requirement, so students can meet this requirement by being involved in Pep Band.

I don't know whether or not this sort of arrangement is prevalent at other schools.

4. What sort of budgets to other schools assign to their bands?  If SLU's band is not being financially supported in the same way that the bands are at other schools, that needs to be fixed.

I don't really have much to say on this one, other than that as was mentioned in this thread, directors have had to purchase items for the band out of their pocket at times.

5. What requirements are expected of bands at basketball centric schools like ours?  If other bands are expected to be at every basketball game and a few events for other sports, then ours should also.  If not, then we should back off and let the just do the basketball games.

I don't know too much about what goes on at other schools, other than that I've heard that George Mason has a series of bands for various purposes (basketball, other sports, etc), so they don't get spread too thin. At the moment, SLU probably doesn't have the numbers to support several bands comprised of different people. Whether that's a result of Covid (students not being able to participate in the activity for 1-2 years, so they just stopped doing it or were already involved in other things by the time they could), or something else, I don't know. 

The issue that I have isn't specifically with the expectation itself. If the numbers existed to make it sustainable to have the representation at mens and womens basketball games, volleyball games, or additional sports and events, and that was communicated as an expectation well in advance, that would be one thing. That's not the case here. The SLU Pep Band has been around approximately 40 years, and the overwhelming majority of those years it was a basketball-only band. More recently, especially after Chaifetz opened, there would be a request for a few volleyball games a year. In the grand scheme of things, that was ok, as long as there was adequate notice. Adequate notice effectively became non-existent recently, especially this year. The departing director repeatedly received e-mails from athletic department personnel in the Monday-Wednesday range saying "Here are the 5 games/events you need to have the band at in the next few days." Maybe you had a basketball game or two, but then throw in a volleyball game on 48 hours notice, and somebody would get a big idea to ask for the band to be at 1-3 soccer games because SLU was hosting the conference tournament back to back weekends. The sound doesn't carry well because 1) you're outside and 2) SLU asked them to be at an event they didn't anticipate being asked to attend on 48 hours notice, so the group is small because people have lives outside of being in a college pep band. Throw in that somebody would on a whim get an idea along the lines of "Hey, SLU's hosting some kind of conference on Wednesday...let's see if we can scramble the band to show up and play a few songs."

The result was that eventually, some students expressed concerns that they were being overburdened and that the increased expectations were causing a strain on their mental health. These concerns were brought up to athletics department officials in a meeting, they were heard, and 1-2 weeks later the "hey, here are the 5-6 events we want you to play at this week" started back up again.      

I don't have great answers to all of your questions since I can't speak too much as to how other schools handle things, but I did the best I could given my own knowledge and experience. See below each of your questions.

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37 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Sigh.

There were many points over the years where I thought Austin would finally hang up the coat and call it a day, few SLU basketball fans have put their heart and soul into every single game the way Austin has over the last ~10 years since taking over for Mike Beskala. Beskala retired from the job early, for a variety of reasons, but probably was glad to be leaving when he did. Austin was the primary reason the band was able to maintain its enthusiasm and soul for the past decade, despite continual challenges from the people that should have been supporting him. Every year something was being taken away, like playing time, space, funding for new instruments, etc. And yet, Austin was there, every single game. His passion was to make SLU basketball games a fun atmosphere for everyone. He also had a full time job and this was more akin to a volunteer position with a stipend. As mentioned above, he often paid for things out of his own pocket, but it was because of his love for the band and SLU basketball. 

I like to think Austin could just set aside the lack of appropriate compensation or respect from AD because he loved what he did, but every year seemed to be a new series of issues. There were a few points back in 2017-2019 where they threatened to fire him because he was causing too many "problems" for them by pushing back on various BS (like threatening to have scholarships removed, reducing funding, taking playing time during games away, micromanaging from AD staff who were non musicians, telling us what songs we should play and ones we weren't "allowed" to, etc.). Like I said, I am very surprised he stuck around for this long, not many would have. He always had the band's back, and we had his. I doubt really anyone will show up now without Austin at the helm. He was the heart and soul of the World's Greatest Pep Band. 

1. Around 2011-2012, there were a ton of students signing up to play in the band. At our largest, we were about 120 band members strong in 2013. Since around 2016 the number of students signing up for the band gradually dwindled. But many alumni, even grad students, would stay on as volunteers to help fill much needed brass sections. Hard to say the exact reasons for fewer students getting involved in band. It just seemed like there was less enthusiasm among new undergrads for any extracurriculars that weren't viewed as significant "resume boosters."

2. Yes, but often in the form of a scholarship and was often highly variable from school to school. I appreciated the small extra scholarship money, but it was never really as important as just being part of a really fun and special group of people. It wasn't really make or break for most students, and certainly not the main reason most people joined the band. 

3. We received a half credit per semester. Not bad when you added it up over 4 years. 

4. Only a few schools have much more substantial budgets. Places like G Mason and VCU fund their bands fairly well and pay the directors full time salaries. I think VCU band actually protested a number of years back until the university agreed to pay their director as a full time staff member. They also have many band members who are students in the music school there.  At SLU we don't have a music school and most of the players don't play anywhere besides pep band. 

5. Key word being "requirement." For an all volunteer band, there should be no requirements. And if there were any being levied against Austin and band members then, well, I guess this is what will happen and we will see how AD squirms now that their good thing they took for granted is now gone. But in general, it varies from school to school. You have football and non football schools. Football schools usually have the marching band AND the pep band (I knew a guy who played in Notre Dame marching full time and then pep band in the offseason). The marching band members receive a substantial stipend and scholarship, and play at various functions around the universities. It's a full time job, and extremely intense during the season. Then you have non football schools, which only have a pep band. VCU and George Mason, for example, play at a good number of their sporting events, i.e. basketball (mens and women's), volleyball, soccer, etc. But again, they are pretty well funded by relative pep band standards. Most other places just play at mens and women's basketball games. 

 

All in all, a sad day for SLU basketball. Austin was a treasure and hard to imagine them finding a replacement in the next 1.5 weeks. Most band members will not return. 

 

32 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I don't have great answers to all of your questions since I can't speak too much as to how other schools handle things, but I did the best I could given my own knowledge and experience. See below each of your questions.

Couldn't have stated any of this better myself, guys. Thanks for this.

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38 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

finding a replacement in the next 1.5 weeks. Most band members will not return. 

To speak to this, a few current alumni are trying to keep it alive contingent on demands being met, but the people I know aren't optimistic about it. My thinking is always just to outlast the a$$holes even if new ones take their place.

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2 minutes ago, BrettJollyComedyHour said:

To speak to this, a few current alumni are trying to keep it alive contingent on demands being met, but the people I know aren't optimistic about it. My thinking is always just to outlast the a$$holes even if new ones take their place.

Can’t imagine any concrete/meaningful changes happening when they wouldn’t even consider (or do) them with the person who had been with the band for 20+ years.

 

Everything was just glossed over with more promises and delays.  Repeatedly. 
 

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