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Billiken Basketball in the modern Tournament Era according to Massey


brianstl

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1 hour ago, Billiken Rich said:

Good grief Roy.  Highly ranked freshmen flame out all the time.  You might believe Majerus would've turned Jordan into a lottery pick but that doesn't make it so.  Was it Majerus' fault that Tommie Liddell didn't make the NBA and didn't play his natural position?

rickma sure didnt do lisch and liddell any favors the way he treated them their senior year it seemed only because they werent his players.

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10 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

rickma sure didnt do lisch and liddell any favors the way he treated them their senior year it seemed only because they werent his players.

Don't buy that at all.  Rickma was making a massive culture change.  Those guys were headed out of the program.  Rickma was taking actions for the team 2, 3 years in the future.  Rickma knew he wouldn't win that first year and did not owe Lisch and Liddell squat except to play them if they were worthy of getting PT.

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5 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

 

i understand he had to switch positions with collins coming in.   but the debate isnt about what was best for the billikens (which jordan undoubted did what was best for the team) the point is his sacrifice retarded his future development.   only because of his own will and efforts is he where he is today.

So how is this Ford's fault? Because he recruited Collins?

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pelican, all i am saying is that goodwin is an example he was not helped on player development while at slu.   that his nba success is all him and no positive credit to ford imo.   

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

pelican, all i am saying is that goodwin is an example he was not helped on player development while at slu.   that his nba success is all him and no positive credit to ford imo.   

I know that its just an opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think that even Jordan would agree with you about that opinion.

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2 hours ago, Old guy said:

About Jordan Goodwin while he was playing for SLU. He was one of the top players, if not the top player in the SLU team. Players  who are the best of a team, really have little incentive to become better than they are.  Once he joined the G league and got a clear idea of how much he had to improve to reach the goal, went to work on improving his game, and got there, or so it appears to be. He made it happen.

I think this is totally wrong. I believe Jordan was one of the hardest working Billikens ever. One Sunday afternoon I was going to a women’s game when I looked into the practice gym. There was one player working hard putting up shots by himself. Jordon Goodwin. 

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50 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Willie, you can work as hard as you wish and make no significant progress because you do not know what it is that needs to be improved. In the G league, this became clear and he had specific things he wanted to improve in. At SLU he was just staying in shape.

Lol. Have you ever thought of trying stand up? Stupid $hit is usually pretty funny. 

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46 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Willie, you can work as hard as you wish and make no significant progress because you do not know what it is that needs to be improved. In the G league, this became clear and he had specific things he wanted to improve in. At SLU he was just staying in shape.

You are vastly downplaying his work at SLU and overplaying the coaching in the G league. What I don’t know is whether he worked with a shot doctor in the off-season.

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1 minute ago, willie said:

You are vastly downplaying his work at SLU and overplaying the coaching in the G league. What I don’t know is whether he worked with a shot doctor in the off-season.

You are correct. And of course Jordan knew what he needed to work on and of course he made greater improvements as a professional. 

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1 minute ago, Billiken Rich said:

Out of "good posts" for today.......good post!

Honestly, Either his entire persona is just a gag or I can’t imagine he doesn’t reread his own posts and think to himself “damn, I sound like a moron today and wtf I sounded like one yesterday too”

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1 hour ago, Old guy said:

Willie, you can work as hard as you wish and make no significant progress because you do not know what it is that needs to be improved. In the G league, this became clear and he had specific things he wanted to improve in. At SLU he was just staying in shape.

Now you're just spewing nonsense. Of course, lately that's about all you've been good for.

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2 hours ago, White Pelican said:

Now you're just spewing nonsense. Of course, lately that's about all you've been good for.

OK let's analyze this. Do you think playing HS basketball competitively in the summer leagues is equal to playing D1 basketball? Of course not, you have to learn to play at D1 level before you can get good at it. Does the same thing happens when you go from D1 to NBA level?, of course it does.

Goodwin was at the top of his game in D1, but he had to learn what the NBA was looking for and improve his game to be able to play at that level. Do you think this is nonsense?

So, you do not like what I post, great! Join the multitudes of other people that do not like it, but really tell me if you believe that going from HS to D1 or D1 to NBA does not require a transition. I am sure some people, like Justin Tatum, did not need much to transition to the NBA, they were ready as is. Other people, and Goodwin fits in this transition category, he needed to work hard to make the transition. Where is the nonsense, can you point it out to me please.

If it is a matter of plainly disliking what I post or how I think, or express myself, that is entirely OK. I really do not care if you like it or not. However, if you find it offensive in any way please put me in the ignore list and solve the problem.

 

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18 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

pelican, all i am saying is that goodwin is an example he was not helped on player development while at slu.   that his nba success is all him and no positive credit to ford imo.   

You never addressed my post earlier where I pointed out that playing off-ball at SLU HAS helped him be more successful in the NBA.

I'll also just leave this here.  This is Goodwin's 3pt % during his SLU career:

Freshman: 23.5%

Sophomore: 26.3%

Junior: 28.2%

Senior 31.4%

He's improved his shooting even more in the G-League & NBA, but that undoubtedly started at SLU.

Goodwin is a guy whose primary asset is effort.  SLU/Ford certainly didn't give him the motor.  That's all him.  However, saying that his NBA success is ALL him and no credit to Ford is crazy.  You can try to argue a different coach would have better prepared him, but there is really no good way to determine if that's true.

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we will have to agree to disagree RU.   

to change focus of the discussion and getting the debate back on track, ford has to start showing a willingness to change soon.   right now there is anger all around.   angry isnt bad.   that shows people still have passion and care.   what you will start seeing soon is indifference and non caring.   when that hits, that isnt good.  that means the fandom is giving up.  giving up will lead to desertion.  

we as the hardcore's should be angry.   we should be questioning and second guessing when the actual results are below expectations.   and when it comes down to it, ford is responsible.   he is responsible for everything.   that's why he gets the big bucks.   taking responsibility and taking steps to make changes in aspects of the program is the right thing to do imo. 

we are wasting time arguing about goodwin.  that is a distraction from your side of an example i am using not the real problem.   we need to be discussing why this team has ANY losses imo.   i disagree with those saying the talent was over represented.   this team is loaded with talent.   denying that is nothing more than enabling ford to continue on as is.   

as the hardcore program supporters we cannot allow that or be a part of that.   i am not saying anyone needs to be fired.   i just want to see steps (they dont have to be drastic) to some changes that might right the ship.

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23 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

we will have to agree to disagree RU.   

to change focus of the discussion and getting the debate back on track, ford has to start showing a willingness to change soon.   right now there is anger all around.   angry isnt bad.   that shows people still have passion and care.   what you will start seeing soon is indifference and non caring.   when that hits, that isnt good.  that means the fandom is giving up.  giving up will lead to desertion.  

we as the hardcore's should be angry.   we should be questioning and second guessing when the actual results are below expectations.   and when it comes down to it, ford is responsible.   he is responsible for everything.   that's why he gets the big bucks.   taking responsibility and taking steps to make changes in aspects of the program is the right thing to do imo. 

we are wasting time arguing about goodwin.  that is a distraction from your side of an example i am using not the real problem.   we need to be discussing why this team has ANY losses imo.   i disagree with those saying the talent was over represented.   this team is loaded with talent.   denying that is nothing more than enabling ford to continue on as is.   

as the hardcore program supporters we cannot allow that or be a part of that.   i am not saying anyone needs to be fired.   i just want to see steps (they dont have to be drastic) to some changes that might right the ship.

You brought it up Roy, now it's a distraction?  I don't know anyone happy with the Billiken's performance to date. I'm not.  I'm also not angry about it.  Disappointed sure but angry?  No.  This team does have talent but it also has some glaring roster holes and under-performance from guys like Okoro.  Whether it's Jimerson not hitting open threes, or Parker, or Perkins, or whoever should be setting a screen for the above and isn't, it's all on Ford since he recruited everybody.  Still waiting on French's replacement.   Having said that Ford did not miss all of those 3 footers in the paint, or those open threes, or those free throws.  He didn't turn the ball over or throw a pass to Okoro's feet.  He hasn't a penchant for fouling three point shooters.  He doesn't go hero ball and try to score in impossible situations.

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46 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i am not saying anyone needs to be fired.   i just want to see steps (they dont have to be drastic) to some changes that might right the ship.

Not that I’m in the camp of a head coaching change at this moment, but always curious when this comes up. What would these changes look like? Assistant coaching shakeup? Scheduling philosophy change? New offensive/defensive schemes? 
 

In general, I feel this team is going to be fine in A-10 play. Their losses are to teams that are far superior to anyone in the league this year. But do feel the questions regarding if Travis is the guy to take the program to the heights it can get to are valid. 

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3 hours ago, johnbj14 said:

Not that I’m in the camp of a head coaching change at this moment, but always curious when this comes up. What would these changes look like? Assistant coaching shakeup? Scheduling philosophy change? New offensive/defensive schemes? 
 

In general, I feel this team is going to be fine in A-10 play. Their losses are to teams that are far superior to anyone in the league this year. But do feel the questions regarding if Travis is the guy to take the program to the heights it can get to are valid. 

im not the coach or athletic director.   but you want me to dictate program changes?  my only point is i think the fandom deserves to see some kind of effort to shake things up to some degree.   

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2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

im not the coach or athletic director.   but you want me to dictate program changes?  my only point is i think the fandom deserves to see some kind of effort to shake things up to some degree.   

I think we need to let the season play out. All of this talk is very premature in my opinion. 

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you definitely have more patience than me Willie.   ive been a billiken since 1978 and i am at the end of my rope i know you have been a billiken longer than me and your above response is very calm and relaxed.   good for you.   i am not going again tomorrow night.   (3rd miss this year)   and i dont know if i have ever missed more than 3 times in a season since i have had tickets starting in 1988.   and i am not even upset about missing.  when the anger is gone and people start not caring that is a problem.  

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