Two Man Game, Earl and Rocc.

[TheChosenOne]

8 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

Majerus had a .579 winning percentage at SLU Ford has a .593 record. Based on the comments on this board, that should be surprising...

I hated it at the time, but Majerus came in and decided he was going to build his program from day #1 with little concern for maximizing the roster he inherited (which included some Billiken greats in Lisch and Liddell). A few years in with his guys playing beautiful ball together I realized the guy was a damn genius. Unfortunately he didn’t get to fully enjoy what he had built and play out the string with his guys and because of that his winning % at SLU is not indicative of what he built here. Ford has proven to be a quality hire, but I don’t see much need to compare him to the best coach we have ever had and one of the best to do it period. Hopefully this winter Ford has that season where it finally all clicks and we are talking about a team that accomplishes what those Majerus’ (and then Crews) teams did. Whether the program is somehow on a different level probably has less to do with Ford vs. Majerus and more to do with the facility improvements and commitment the administration and boosters have made to the program. But with the $ the power conferences are brining in that might be more keeping up with the Joneses than elevating our perceived standing in the college basketball landscape. And fortunately Ford is still young enough to make us not have to worry about his successor anytime soon.

[Taj79]

Majerus was 95 and 69 at SLU officially.  That was through the 2012 season.  The next two seasons, [dead] used Majerus' boys to go 55 and 14.  The only thing missing from those records were Majerus sitting on the bench.  One could argue that that success is solely laid at Rick's feet.  If so, that makes his 'true' overall record and percentage 150 and 83 for a winning percentage of .644.  

[Old guy]

One thing no one was mentioned about Majerus is that he did what he did at SLU as a sick, and, in his last season, actually a dying man. Majerus was a great coach, he could recruit (this got iffy at the end of his life), he could build up a team, and he could coach it to consistent wins. Considering his state of health, the level of his achievement at SLU is even higher than what the stats show.

[Billiken Rich]

3 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

I hated it at the time, but Majerus came in and decided he was going to build his program from day #1 with little concern for maximizing the roster he inherited (which included some Billiken greats in Lisch and Liddell). A few years in with his guys playing beautiful ball together I realized the guy was a damn genius. Unfortunately he didn’t get to fully enjoy what he had built and play out the string with his guys and because of that his winning % at SLU is not indicative of what he built here. Ford has proven to be a quality hire, but I don’t see much need to compare him to the best coach we have ever had and one of the best to do it period. Hopefully this winter Ford has that season where it finally all clicks and we are talking about a team that accomplishes what those Majerus’ (and then Crews) teams did. Whether the program is somehow on a different level probably has less to do with Ford vs. Majerus and more to do with the facility improvements and commitment the administration and boosters have made to the program. But with the $ the power conferences are brining in that might be more keeping up with the Joneses than elevating our perceived standing in the college basketball landscape. And fortunately Ford is still young enough to make us not have to worry about his successor anytime soon.

Majerus was a genius.  A complicated, my way or the highway, kind of genius.  Part of me will never forgive him for squandering Lisch and Liddell......squander them he did........ 

[slufanskip]

11 hours ago, brianstl said:

Did he really?  Ford took over a program that was two seasons removed from three straight second round NCAA tournaments and two straight conference championships. Majerus took over a program that hadn’t been to the NCAA tournament in seven seasons and hadn’t won a conference championship in 36.

Yes. He really did. What RM accomplished was irrelevant by the time Ford took over. 
 

22-44 / 8-28.

I don’t think there’s any question RM was the better coach, but he didn’t take over a worse program. 

I also think the 1st 2 Crews years should be taken into account when considering RM’s tenure. I’m a Ford fan but he needs a few consecutive tournaments to put him in the RM conversation 

[BIG BILL FAN]

10 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

I hated it at the time, but Majerus came in and decided he was going to build his program from day #1 with little concern for maximizing the roster he inherited (which included some Billiken greats in Lisch and Liddell). A few years in with his guys playing beautiful ball together I realized the guy was a damn genius. Unfortunately he didn’t get to fully enjoy what he had built and play out the string with his guys and because of that his winning % at SLU is not indicative of what he built here. Ford has proven to be a quality hire, but I don’t see much need to compare him to the best coach we have ever had and one of the best to do it period. Hopefully this winter Ford has that season where it finally all clicks and we are talking about a team that accomplishes what those Majerus’ (and then Crews) teams did. Whether the program is somehow on a different level probably has less to do with Ford vs. Majerus and more to do with the facility improvements and commitment the administration and boosters have made to the program. But with the $ the power conferences are brining in that might be more keeping up with the Joneses than elevating our perceived standing in the college basketball landscape. And fortunately Ford is still young enough to make us not have to worry about his successor anytime soon.

 Because of his age he was never going to be able to sustain a program. He was a short term fix, and did a great job at it. Ford, if not run off by the likes of clowns on this board, has this team positioned to be at a high level for years to come.

[Old guy]

2 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

 Because of his age he was never going to be able to sustain a program. He was a short term fix, and did a great job at it. Ford, if not run off by the likes of clowns on this board, has this team positioned to be at a high level for years to come.

Calling other posters clowns is uncalled for. Everyone can have his/her own opinion. You have made yours known and that is fine. Anyone else is free to have a different opinion than yours. After all, NO ONE knows the one absolute and complete truth about anything.

[AGB91]

2 hours ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

 Because of his age he was never going to be able to sustain a program. He was a short term fix, and did a great job at it. Ford, if not run off by the likes of clowns on this board, has this team positioned to be at a high level for years to come.

People forget that Majerus inherited a team that had won 20 games the previous year.

Soderberg wasn't the answer but he was light years better than Crews.

[brianstl]

39 minutes ago, AGB91 said:

People forget that Majerus inherited a team that had won 20 games the previous year.

Soderberg wasn't the answer but he was light years better than Crews.

People forget that the last two recruiting classes Brad signed included only one D1 basketball talent.  With the exception of Relphorde there wasn't a D1 talent in the six.  Anthony Mitchell, Obi, Knollmeyer, Maguire, and Horace Dixon.

Ford actually inherited a better roster top to bottom than Majerus.

[Billiken Rich]

21 minutes ago, brianstl said:

People forget that the last two recruiting classes Brad signed included only one D1 basketball talent.  With the exception of Relphorde there wasn't a D1 talent in the six.  Anthony Mitchell, Obi, Knollmeyer, Maguire, and Horace Dixon.

Ford actually inherited a better roster top to bottom than Majerus.

It really didn't matter.  Majerus could've had almost any roster and sucked until he got guys who understood and could flourish in his system.  Brad and even Jimmy C could've coached a Lisch and Liddell team to score more than 20 points against freaking GW.......

[ACE]

We need to remember that the timing of the Majerus hiring was very strange and put him at a big recruiting disadvantage. He was hired on April 30 - the spring recruiting class was well underway and RM had to scramble to assemble a staff. Sodie should have been fired immediately after the season in mid-March, which is what is typical. Instead it dragged well into April.

That's a big reason the build up of the program was a bit slow under RM. Lisch and Liddell were rising juniors, but there was very little else on that roster. Majerus didn't have any time to land any impact recruits in his first spring recruiting class - I think Barry Eberhardt was the best they could do.

It was the following year that Majerus was able to land some impact recruits: Kwamain, Conklin and Willie, but those guys were all freshmen while TL and KL were seniors.

TF on the other hand took over in a more typical timeframe. Crews fired right after the season, and Ford in place to land some recruits for that spring class.  He went the transfer route and did very well Bess, Foreman, Henriquez.

[VeniceMenace]

30 minutes ago, brianstl said:

People forget that the last two recruiting classes Brad signed included only one D1 basketball talent.  With the exception of Relphorde there wasn't a D1 talent in the six.  Anthony Mitchell, Obi, Knollmeyer, Maguire, and Horace Dixon.

Ford actually inherited a better roster top to bottom than Majerus.

What players on Ford's first roster were better than JUNIORS Lisch and Liddell?

[slu72]

Ford’s era has run into some difficulties beyond his control. We really can’t judge his record until he gets a full season situation and Covid free. 

[ACE]

31 minutes ago, brianstl said:

People forget that the last two recruiting classes Brad signed included only one D1 basketball talent.  With the exception of Relphorde there wasn't a D1 talent in the six.  Anthony Mitchell, Obi, Knollmeyer, Maguire, and Horace Dixon.

Ford actually inherited a better roster top to bottom than Majerus.

Exactly - Sodie is the one who squandered KL and TL, NOT RM which is a narrative that has been spread on this board. It's the reason Sodie lost his job.

[Billiken Rich]

Just now, ACE said:

Exactly - Sodie is the one who squandered KL and TL, NOT RM which is a narrative that has been spread on this board. It's the reason Sodie lost his job.

They were juniors when Rick took over.......

[slu72]

1 minute ago, VeniceMenace said:

What players on Ford's first roster were better than JUNIORS Lisch and Liddell?

None. I still can’t figure out how he didn’t get more out of those two, who were 2 of the most talented players the Bills ever landed. 

[ACE]

1 minute ago, Billiken Rich said:

They were juniors when Rick took over.......

I know - read my previous post explaining why adding quality talent for KL and TL's junior seasons was not possible.

[Taj79]

Yeah let's remember Majerus replaced a stunned Brad Soderberg after Brad posted a 20 win season.  His roster included:  Lisch, Liddell, Meyer, Brown, Eberhardt, Husak, Polk, Eckerle (walk on) and Soderberg recruits Knollmeyer, Relaphorde and Mitchell.  I think the highest (/) rated recruit, Dustin Maguire redshirted that year.  

Ford's first year, he inherited Roby, Crawford, Agbeko, injured player Welmer, injured player Bishop, Hines (walk on), and [dead] recruits Moore, Gillman, and Neufeld.  Plus Ford recuit Jalen Johnson.  

Majerus inherited two of the best all-time players in Billiken history.  Ford inherited none.  There is no way in hell Ford's inheritance was "better top to bottom" than what Majerus came into.  Ford started at rock bottom IMHO.  Leaving at the time were Reynolds, Jolley, Yarbrough and Bartley.  I believe all but Bartley left right after [dead] was fired and before Ford came on.

[Billiken Rich]

Just now, ACE said:

I know - read my previous post explaining why adding quality talent for KL and TL's junior seasons was not possible.

I do not think it is arguable that Majerus gave little thought to adapting his coaching style to maximizing the potential of the players he inherited.....hence squandering that talent in my opinion......

 

[3star_recruit]

17 minutes ago, slu72 said:

None. I still can’t figure out how he didn’t get more out of those two, who were 2 of the most talented players the Bills ever landed. 

Because he was recruiting to freaking West Pine in an era where the only good local players were Lisch, Liddell and the kids Weber took at SIU.  If you didn't have the name recognition to bring in talent from outside of the area, it wasn't going to happen.  Put a Soderberg-level coach in Chaifetz and we would have been competing for conference titles in most years.

[slufan13]

Majerus may have inherited a better roster but Ford inherited a better program by a mile

[ACE]

21 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I do not think it is arguable that Majerus gave little thought to adapting his coaching style to maximizing the potential of the players he inherited.....hence squandering that talent in my opinion......

 

And I contend Sodie did a lot more to squander their talent by having two awful recruiting classes in a row after signing them. He had two great opportunities to surround them with a better supporting cast and failed in a big way. To me that's more important than playing styles. In TL and KL's junior seasons, RM could have done all the adapting to playing styles he wanted, but it wasn't going to matter when Polk is your starting point guard, Meyer is your starting power forward and Husak is your starting center.

[Billiken Rich]

13 minutes ago, ACE said:

And I contend Sodie did a lot more to squander their talent by having two awful recruiting classes in a row after signing them. He had two great opportunities to surround them with a better supporting cast and failed in a big way. To me that's more important than playing styles. In TL and KL's junior seasons, RM could have done all the adapting to playing styles he wanted, but it wasn't going to matter when Polk is your starting point guard, Meyer is your starting power forward and Husak is your starting center.

I respectfully disagree with your contention......

[BIG BILL FAN]

2 hours ago, Old guy said:

Calling other posters clowns is uncalled for. Everyone can have his/her own opinion. You have made yours known and that is fine. Anyone else is free to have a different opinion than yours. After all, NO ONE knows the one absolute and complete truth about anything.

Since I’ve been called a clown a few times by CB Fan (with no response from you by the way) I assumed it was entirely permissible and appropriate...right CB Fan????

[JMM28]

34 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Because he was recruiting to freaking West Pine in an era where the only good local players were Lisch, Liddell and the kids Weber took at SIU.  If you didn't have the name recognition to bring in talent from outside of the area, it wasn't going to happen.  Put a Soderberg-level coach in Chaifetz and we would have been competing for conference titles in most years.

West Pine was a dump, but Soderberg isn't a head coach. Soderberg in Chaifetz would be no different than the results he got at Savvis. Great dude, but there is a reason he wasn't retained at Wisconsin, then dumped by SLU, then moved to a non coaching role at UVA.