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Best Billikens Point Guard


thetorch
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Is there a page that deducts out layups and dunks made from overall FG percentage?  I am sure i don't have to remind some of my issues with that in regards to Jordair Jett a few seasons back.  And not to be a homer, I'd offer the same argument on DaRon Holmes right now.  What happens when you take out his dunks, putbacks and layups in terms of his overall FG%?  

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshite.  When all else fails, use statistics.  My pop had that sign on his desk circa 1969.

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2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Is there a page that deducts out layups and dunks made from overall FG percentage?  I am sure i don't have to remind some of my issues with that in regards to Jordair Jett a few seasons back.  And not to be a homer, I'd offer the same argument on DaRon Holmes right now.  What happens when you take out his dunks, putbacks and layups in terms of his overall FG%?  

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshite.  When all else fails, use statistics.  My pop had that sign on his desk circa 1969.

There are stats like that but why do you need them?

It is advantageous to take shots closer to the basket.  Certain players are able to get those shots more than others.  Why punish them.  This is why those statistics even the score by taking into account how many FTs are missed and how many 3 pointers are made vs 2s.  It is still a good measure of how efficient a scorer is.  Has nothing to do with shooting. While Shaq, who only took shots in the paint, but missed a ton of Fts may have a TS% of 700, Curry could just as easily hit that mark by making 90% of his FTs and shooting 45% from 3.

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Yuri's career isn't over so I'm not going to anoint him the best Billikens PG yet.  

I don't think you can objectively put him at the top yet.

SLU had a 1st team all america PG in the 50s in Ray Steiner.  SLU largely ignores him so I guess we can too.

Harry Rogers was the PG for a SLU team that finished 3rd in the MVC when it was one of the best conferences in the country.  1st team all MVC, scored over 40 points in a game, 2 more in the 30s. Led the team in rebounding and set the school scoring record while averaging 3 assists a game, back when they didn't hand out assists like candy.  Don't know how anybody can have a better season than that.

David Burns was the MVC POY as the SLU pg in again one of the best conferences in the nation and played a ridiculous schedule.

Objectively Yuri has not done what those 3 have yet.  If you want to say he's the best modern PG, OK I can go with that.  Waldman gives him some competition, as does Marque, Goodwin, and Fisher.

If Yuri wins Conf POY or the Cousy award, or gets us to a sweet 16 he's in the running.  Right now I say no.

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No one loves Harry or David Burns more then me but we are taking apples and oranges. While Harry played some point that wasn’t his main job. He was a scorer. I don’t remember him being an assist  guy. Same for Burns. He just ran by people. Incredibly fast. If you want to argue who were better players I agree Yuri needs to have a great year to pass them. If we are talking a pure point guard I still don’t think it’s close. Yuri. 

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

Yuri's career isn't over so I'm not going to anoint him the best Billikens PG yet.  

I don't think you can objectively put him at the top yet.

SLU had a 1st team all america PG in the 50s in Ray Steiner.  SLU largely ignores him so I guess we can too.

Harry Rogers was the PG for a SLU team that finished 3rd in the MVC when it was one of the best conferences in the country.  1st team all MVC, scored over 40 points in a game, 2 more in the 30s. Led the team in rebounding and set the school scoring record while averaging 3 assists a game, back when they didn't hand out assists like candy.  Don't know how anybody can have a better season than that.

David Burns was the MVC POY as the SLU pg in again one of the best conferences in the nation and played a ridiculous schedule.

Objectively Yuri has not done what those 3 have yet.  If you want to say he's the best modern PG, OK I can go with that.  Waldman gives him some competition, as does Marque, Goodwin, and Fisher.

If Yuri wins Conf POY or the Cousy award, or gets us to a sweet 16 he's in the running.  Right now I say no.

Good to see that you and Old Guy are on the same page…

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27 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Good to see that you and Old Guy are on the same page…

Argue my points. Yuri doesn't have the credentials yet.

This "pure point" stuff is old. All it does is minimize valid weaknesses, ie Collins can't shoot or finish at an elite level, and raise up strengths, Collins elite vision, passing and ball control. Do you want a more one dimensional player like Yuri or a more well rounded one. I think this is just recency bias, since we had similar threads about Goodwin when he was getting triple doubles, now 4 years later he was a combo guard and not a point.

In Harry and Burns' cases they were the best scorers in the team, so why pass? Doesn't mean they couldn't it just wasn't best for the team. Put Yuri on those teams, are they as good, probably not. Put Rogers or Burns on last years team, we make the tourney.

If you want to say Yuri is the best passer that is fine. 

There are 5 positions on the floor. You either are the principal ballhandler or you aren't. What you do with the ball and how that affects winning is all that matters. Under that criteria calling Collins the greatest is premature.

Another question, down by 1 seconds ticking down your pg is bringing up the ball. Who do you want with the ball, Rogers, Burns, Perry, Jett, Mitchell, Goodwin, & Collins? I take everybody on that list over Collins. Can Collins make a Tyus Edney type play? He has at least once. Jett did about 20 times. Can Collins make that play? Yes, is he the teams top option on that play? With a healthy Perkins no. Would every one on that list be better option if they were on this team, you bet.

 

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4 hours ago, thetorch said:

bam 

Another question, down by 1 seconds ticking down your pg is bringing up the ball. Who do you want with the ball, Rogers, Burns, Perry, Jett, Mitchell, Goodwin, & Collins? I take everybody on that list over Collins. Can Collins make a Tyus Edney type play? He has at least once. Jett did about 20 times. Can Collins make that play? Yes, is he the teams top option on that play? With a healthy Perkins no. Would every one on that list be better option if they were on this team, you bet.

 

bam he got it.   ok this discussion is over. 

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

bam he got it.   ok this discussion is over. 

Since I be been a fan. I’d want the ball in Larry Legends hands. There we go Larry Legend the best was the best Billiken point guard. 
 

Except he didn’t play point guard. This question is irrelevant to the discussion. Grasping at straws. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, thetorch said:

Argue my points. Yuri doesn't have the credentials yet.

This "pure point" stuff is old. All it does is minimize valid weaknesses, ie Collins can't shoot or finish at an elite level, and raise up strengths, Collins elite vision, passing and ball control. Do you want a more one dimensional player like Yuri or a more well rounded one. I think this is just recency bias, since we had similar threads about Goodwin when he was getting triple doubles, now 4 years later he was a combo guard and not a point.

In Harry and Burns' cases they were the best scorers in the team, so why pass? Doesn't mean they couldn't it just wasn't best for the team. Put Yuri on those teams, are they as good, probably not. Put Rogers or Burns on last years team, we make the tourney.

If you want to say Yuri is the best passer that is fine. 

There are 5 positions on the floor. You either are the principal ballhandler or you aren't. What you do with the ball and how that affects winning is all that matters. Under that criteria calling Collins the greatest is premature.

Another question, down by 1 seconds ticking down your pg is bringing up the ball. Who do you want with the ball, Rogers, Burns, Perry, Jett, Mitchell, Goodwin, & Collins? I take everybody on that list over Collins. Can Collins make a Tyus Edney type play? He has at least once. Jett did about 20 times. Can Collins make that play? Yes, is he the teams top option on that play? With a healthy Perkins no. Would every one on that list be better option if they were on this team, you bet.

 

Both of your posts are outstanding you back your opinions with facts and you reminded me of some great point guards in the past that played for the Billikens.

I was mad at Yuri because of what went down in the offseason put he reeled me right back in to being a big fan of an area kid playing for SLU.

SLU has a lot of play makers such as Jimerson, Perkins, Parker and Pickett so in the last seconds to win the game anyone of the 5 would be fine I do not want it to be just Yuri as the only choice.

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2 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Since I be been a fan. I’d want the ball in Larry Legends hands. There we go Larry Legend the best was the best Billiken point guard. 
 

Except he didn’t play point guard. This question is irrelevant to the discussion. Grasping at straws. 
 

 

however except harry (sorry Torch, i agree with Willie on Rogers) all of Torch's choices were billiken point guards. 

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This is all completely ridiculous. Don’t overthink it. Larry Hughes was a SG. Yuri is the best Billiken point guard ever. The guys from the 50-60’s frankly can’t be compared with because there were immense differences in the sport.

Look, Goodwin is great, Jett is great. Neither of them would start at PG over Yuri as a Billiken. It isn’t a debate. Yuri is better at seeing the floor, making passes, and helping the team score. He is a good to great defender. He also is a decent scoring threat.
 

Let’s just ask it this way. Did announcers ever refer to any other Billiken as the best PG in the country? Did any Billiken player get a side reference from an announcer at a nationally televised game as potentially the best in the country? NO.

If the argument is that his career isn’t done and this is premature, then ok. But stop pretending Larry Hughes or Easy Ed is our best PG, or that the way a player develops after their college days is part of the analysis, or that bringing the ball of the court is the overwhelming determining factor. It is all idiotic.

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This reminds me of the insane discussions I once had with a bunch of Rams fans who were saying Marshall 
Faulk was a better running back than Emmitt Smith...........

There is always recency bias but of those I've seen, Yuri is the best at running an offense and it isn't close.  Last shot........give me Kwamaine, Hughes, Love, Jordair, H, and a bunch of other guys I'm blanking on at the moment......

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16 hours ago, brianstl said:

H only had 225 FGA in 94-95.  54 2pt FGA attempts and 171 3pt FGA.  You added 171 3pt FGA to a number that already included his 3pt FGA.  You did the same with Yuri.

Like I said, check your math.

LOL fair, I concede that one - my bad. But the only thing that changes in this argument are the advanced metrics that favor 3t shooting. One could argue that Yuri getting the free throw line more often - aka drawing fouls on opponents - is valuable like H's 3PT shooting, maybe even more valuable as it can take players out of the game. 

Let's look at what's left: Yuri with an ~equivalent~ PPG, Yuri with a BETTER overall FG% (even including H's major advantage in 3Pt shooting), Yuri with a huge advantage in passing (despite H being surrounded by better players to pass to), Yuri with a major lead in rebounding (despite H being at least 3" taller than Yuri), and Yuri having much better individual performances. 

 

20 hours ago, brianstl said:

He didn't have facts.

Here, I highlighted all of the facts for you. There was just that one miscalculation, I'll own that one. 

image.png

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5 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

despite H being surrounded by better players to pass to

not sure i agree with this.   i am beginning to think this is the best billiken team in my lifetime.   i think we will know in about 2 weeks what we got.   btw, jimerson shoots as well as claggett and i think if you add in perkins at 100% and what we think parker is going to turn into they are likely better than the legendary scott highmark.  .   then compare donnie campbell and david robertson to okoro and either linssen or forester or pickett, the current set of bigs is far and away better than H's inside guys

i think it is best not to confuse the discussion by bringing in the teamates.  

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

however except harry (sorry Torch, i agree with Willie on Rogers) all of Torch's choices were billiken point guards. 

That discussion re best Billiken point guards is irrelevant. 
 

I can’t make a case for or against anyone Torch mentioned as I’ve never seen them play but adding who!s hands do you want the ball in for the final seconds isn’t really a valid point for the discussion 

How much time left? Down 2 or 3, home or away. Down 2 or 3 with GJim and/or Perk on the floor 10* seconds left I love Yuri having the ball. Plus are we really deciding the best pg over the who’s the best scorer in the last 15 seconds? 

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22 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

not sure i agree with this.   i am beginning to think this is the best billiken team in my lifetime.   i think we will know in about 2 weeks what we got.   btw, jimerson shoots as well as claggett and i think if you add in perkins at 100% and what we think parker is going to turn into they are likely better than the legendary scott highmark.  .   then compare donnie campbell and david robertson to okoro and either linssen or forester or pickett, the current set of bigs is far and away better than H's inside guys

i think it is best not to confuse the discussion by bringing in the teamates.  

He was talking about Yuri's stats last year vs H's senior year stats.

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3 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

He was talking about Yuri's stats last year vs H's senior year stats.

i rarely disagree with you 3 star but he flat out said, "despite H being surrounded by better players to pass to."   

and i think that yuri has the better players around him.  which is bottom line going to result in a "who's better between jimerson and claggett" discussion.  i am now thinking that jimerson is better than the legendary erwin claggett was in the day.

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Just now, billiken_roy said:

i rarely disagree with you 3 star but he flat out said, "despite H being surrounded by better players to pass to."   

and i think that yuri has the better players around him.

All of the stat conversation is based on Yuri's stats last year when his supporting cast was Jimerson, Okoro and Thatch.   So in that scenario, H did have slightly better players.  At least that is the way I read it.

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9 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

All of the stat conversation is based on Yuri's stats last year when his supporting cast was Jimerson, Okoro and Thatch.   So in that scenario, H did have slightly better players.  At least that is the way I read it.

You are correct @3star_recruit. There's no doubt in my mind that this year's team is better than any of H's, but also that last year's team was lesser than probably both of H's teams and especially than his '94-'95 team. @billiken_royI get the confusion but here to clarify, see above. 

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6 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Since I be been a fan. I’d want the ball in Larry Legends hands. There we go Larry Legend the best was the best Billiken point guard. 
 

Except he didn’t play point guard. This question is irrelevant to the discussion. Grasping at straws. 
 

 

I realize this will be a comment widely regarded as treason; but with 5 seconds left on the clock, down by one, I take Jett over everyone.  

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1 hour ago, Bills By 40 said:

LOL fair, I concede that one - my bad. But the only thing that changes in this argument are the advanced metrics that favor 3t shooting. One could argue that Yuri getting the free throw line more often - aka drawing fouls on opponents - is valuable like H's 3PT shooting, maybe even more valuable as it can take players out of the game. 

Let's look at what's left: Yuri with an ~equivalent~ PPG, Yuri with a BETTER overall FG% (even including H's major advantage in 3Pt shooting), Yuri with a huge advantage in passing (despite H being surrounded by better players to pass to), Yuri with a major lead in rebounding (despite H being at least 3" taller than Yuri), and Yuri having much better individual performances. 

 

Here, I highlighted all of the facts for you. There was just that one miscalculation, I'll own that one. 

image.png

Are you really this dense? 

H shot 51.9% from the 2 and 42.7% from the 3.  Yuri shot 47.1% from the 2 and 36.2% from the 3.  H shot a higher % from the 2 and the 3 than Yuri, but you are going to try to pass off .001% difference in overall FG% as something important?  You prove again that you don't understand how even basic stats work.  You don't understand at all how numbers work.

Next, I never argued H was I better passer than Yuri. In the post you screen capped I clearly say H wasn't near Yuri's level.

 

 

 

 

In addition, I never said that H was better PG than Yuri.  In fact I said the the exact opposite in the first post you responded to.  These were my exact words:

Quote

I would put Yuri at number one, but it is much closer than you think

That was in response to a post from @slufanskipthat said it is not really close.

I then when on to explain that I thought it was closer than Skip thought because H was a really efficient offensive player. If you disagree with it being close despite those efficiency numbers, fine.  Skip responded that he disagreed and no big deal.  

You on the other hand bolded part of my post and proceeded to say all my claims were wrong, when it fact what I said was completely correct (well the who was the the better defender thing is more subjective).  You implied that I was actually making this stuff up.  You attacked me, but I didn't try to be a complete a$$ in my first response.  I just told you to check your math and I provided you a link that would have took you to where you could have actually saw the exact stats in question by clicking the seasons.  Then you continued to be an a$$ and proved yourself to have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Now I will be a complete a$$.  You are an idiot who sucks at math, sucks at understanding basic stats and sucks at reading comprehension.  

 

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1 hour ago, 3star_recruit said:

All of the stat conversation is based on Yuri's stats last year when his supporting cast was Jimerson, Okoro and Thatch.   So in that scenario, H did have slightly better players.  At least that is the way I read it.

Imagine if Claggett blew out his knee in an exhibition game and missed his junior season? H didn't have to face that situation. That's what Yuri dealt with at the start of last season. It's tough to make an apples to apples comparison to their college experiences. They have been very different. 

Also, sometimes Yuri's lack of NCAA Tourneys gets thrown out there. Remember, Dec. 23, 2020 - SLU with a strong non-conference performance with wins over LSU and NC State, had just cracked the Top 25.  Then Covid shut the team down for a month. And when they came back, not surprisingly they weren't the same - two straight losses including one to a terrible LaSalle team.  Yuri and co. were poised to make the Tourney before that shutdown. I also have no doubt that last year's team with a healthy Perk is dancing. Context matters when analyzing these things.

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