Best Billikens Point Guard

[slufanskip]

44 minutes ago, willie said:

I don’t get the un love for Yuri. I agree with Travis “Best Point Guard in the country” . He obviously proved last night that he can score. Only deficiency I see is he gets posted up by taller guards. Best true point guard in my long Billiken history by a mile. I think the board is guilty of being nostalgic. 

You’re right and it’s really not close 

[Bills By 40]

13 hours ago, almaman said:

If Mr Collins stays next year he needs to  average  about 7 1/2 rebounds a game to become the all time D-1  career assist leader. think he's 487 away from the needed 1077. We can watch him climb this list when he's back from this tournament.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/ast-player-career.html

He's realistically capable of breaking the top 15 this year, where there a two-way tie at 902. Then 13th and 12th in the 930's. 

To hold 14th place, assuming ~31 more games this year, he'd need to average just 10.09 assists per game for a total of 313 more assists. And I personally think his average can be significantly higher than 10.09.    

[Bills By 40]

13 hours ago, willie said:

I don’t get the un love for Yuri. I agree with Travis “Best Point Guard in the country” . He obviously proved last night that he can score. Only deficiency I see is he gets posted up by taller guards. Best true point guard in my long Billiken history by a mile. I think the board is guilty of being nostalgic. 

12 hours ago, slufanskip said:

You’re right and it’s really not close 

Out of reactions, you're both very right. 

[Bills By 40]

18 hours ago, dennis_w said:

as much as i like goodwin, he made the nba because of improvements after he left, he was a very mediocre shooter to the detriment of the billikens at time. anyway are we discussing billiken point guards or former billikens in the nba? goodwins assets as a billiken was not as a point guard imo

You're also very correct. Goodwin was a combo guard that was serviceable as a point guard. His NBA success is due in great part to 1) his work ethic and determination, and 2) NBA and G-League staff, facilities, etc.  

[brianstl]

12 hours ago, slufanskip said:

You’re right and it’s really not close 

I would put Yuri at number one, but it is much closer than you think.  Yuri has one skill that he is just so much better at.  Everything else H was better at.  H was a far more efficient scorer, a better shooter and a better defender.  Even at that passing and court vision thing, H was really good at it.  He just wasn't near Yuri's level.  H did it all against tougher schedules than Yuri.

I think Yuri is the best, but it is close.

[RUBillsFan]

49 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

He's realistically capable of breaking the top 15 this year, where there a two-way tie at 902. Then 13th and 12th in the 930's. 

To hold 14th place, assuming ~31 more games this year, he'd need to average just 10.09 assists per game for a total of 313 more assists. And I personally think his average can be significantly higher than 10.09.    

He needs to get to 783 to top Jacob Gilyard for most ever in the A10.  Of course it took Gilyard 5 seasons to do it & Yuri is likely to get there & beyond in 4.  His 590 is currently tied for 13th in the A10 with Jaylen Adams.

[Bills By 40]

1 minute ago, RUBillsFan said:

He needs to get to 783 to top Jacob Gilyard for most ever in the A10.  Of course it took Gilyard 5 seasons to do it & Yuri is likely to get there & beyond in 4.  His 590 is currently tied for 13th in the A10 with Jaylen Adams.

That would be an average of just 6.2 for the rest of the season. He could almost play just one half a game the rest of the year and make that mark 

[RUBillsFan]

20 hours ago, Old guy said:

Let's look at it in a different way. How many Billiken PGs have ever made it to a spot in the NBA. Jordan Goodwin is about to achieve this level. Anyone else.

Yuri still has some time to go before it can be determined if he makes it to the NBA or not.

I guess Collins is at best 6th on the list of all time best SLU PGs then behind not only Goodwin, but also David Burns, DC Wilcutt, Barry Orms, and Larry Hughes who was listed as a PG sporadically during his NBA career.

Can't wait until a several years after Collins SLU career is over to see whether or not he makes the NBA so we can finally determine how good is SLU career was.

[Cowboy II]

14 hours ago, willie said:

I don’t get the un love for Yuri. I agree with Travis “Best Point Guard in the country” . He obviously proved last night that he can score. Only deficiency I see is he gets posted up by taller guards. Best true point guard in my long Billiken history by a mile. I think the board is guilty of being nostalgic. 

-it makes me wonder when we switch on screens and he ends up guarding a big, other teams haven't capitalized much yet but against better teams/coaches I think that is coming

[Bills By 40]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

I would put Yuri at number one, but it is much closer than you think.  Yuri has one skill that he is just so much better at.  Everything else H was better at.  H was a far more efficient scorer, a better shooter and a better defender.  Even at that passing and court vision thing, H was really good at it.  He just wasn't near Yuri's level.  H did it all against tougher schedules than Yuri.

I think Yuri is the best, but it is close.

I thought "Hell I don't know much about H, let's fact check this. Maybe he's right." You aren't. 

H Waldman '94-'95: 11.3PPG .449/.427/.788 4.8APG 2.4RPG 2.4SPG

Yuri Collins '21-'22:  11.1PPG  .450/.362/.815  7.9APG 4.1RPG  1.9SPG

Let's have more fun with that, and compare season highs:

H - 22 points, 10 assists, 5 rebounds
Yuri - 35 points, 19 assists (and had 10 or more 8 times), 12 rebounds (and had 5 or more 15 times) 

Not only did Yuri have a nearly identical scoring average (1 fewer point per 5 games played), he did it with 3.1 more assists per game, 1.7 more rebounds per game, only .5 fewer steals per game, and a true shooting percentage of 46.73% to H's 39.19% - and you can fact check that with this website (If you care to do the work, the values are as follows: H - 338 points, 396 FGA, 80 FTA ; Yuri - 379 points, 358 FGA, 108 FTA).

 

AND, I compared H's senior season to Yuri's junior season. He was a full year more developed and matured, (arguably) stacking the odds in his favor. 


Strength of schedule is more difficult to find historical data for but based on how wrong all of your other claims are we can guess that might be too. 

Sources:
https://saintlouisu_ftp.sidearmsports.com/custompages/MBB/stats/199495Stats.pdf (H's stats)
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/4432957/yuri-collins (Yuri's stats)

 

[almaman]

9 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

I thought "Hell I don't know much about H, let's fact check this. Maybe he's right." You aren't. 

H Waldman '94-'95: 11.3PPG .449/.427/.788 4.8APG 2.4RPG 2.4SPG

Yuri Collins '21-'22:  11.1PPG  .450/.362/.815  7.9APG 4.1RPG  1.9SPG

Let's have more fun with that, and compare season highs:

H - 22 points, 10 assists, 5 rebounds
Yuri - 35 points, 19 assists (and had 10 or more 8 times), 12 rebounds (and had 5 or more 15 times) 

Not only did Yuri have a nearly identical scoring average (1 fewer point per 5 games played), he did it with 3.1 more assists per game, 1.7 more rebounds per game, only .5 fewer steals per game, and a true shooting percentage of 46.73% to H's 39.19% - and you can fact check that with this website (If you care to do the work, the values are as follows: H - 338 points, 396 FGA, 80 FTA ; Yuri - 379 points, 358 FGA, 108 FTA).

 

AND, I compared H's senior season to Yuri's junior season. He was a full year more developed and matured, (arguably) stacking the odds in his favor. 


Strength of schedule is more difficult to find historical data for but based on how wrong all of your other claims are we can guess that might be too. 

Sources:
https://saintlouisu_ftp.sidearmsports.com/custompages/MBB/stats/199495Stats.pdf (H's stats)
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/4432957/yuri-collins (Yuri's stats)

 

besides facts what else u got?

[slufanskip]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

I would put Yuri at number one, but it is much closer than you think.  Yuri has one skill that he is just so much better at.  Everything else H was better at.  H was a far more efficient scorer, a better shooter and a better defender.  Even at that passing and court vision thing, H was really good at it.  He just wasn't near Yuri's level.  H did it all against tougher schedules than Yuri.

I think Yuri is the best, but it is close.

No. You actually have it wrong and it's not as close as you think

[cgeldmacher]

When H was here, I don't recall national media giving him respect as possibly being the best point guard in the country.  With Yuri, he's getting mentioned during the Texas/Gonzaga game.

[brianstl]

32 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

I thought "Hell I don't know much about H, let's fact check this. Maybe he's right." You aren't. 

H Waldman '94-'95: 11.3PPG .449/.427/.788 4.8APG 2.4RPG 2.4SPG

Yuri Collins '21-'22:  11.1PPG  .450/.362/.815  7.9APG 4.1RPG  1.9SPG

Let's have more fun with that, and compare season highs:

H - 22 points, 10 assists, 5 rebounds
Yuri - 35 points, 19 assists (and had 10 or more 8 times), 12 rebounds (and had 5 or more 15 times) 

Not only did Yuri have a nearly identical scoring average (1 fewer point per 5 games played), he did it with 3.1 more assists per game, 1.7 more rebounds per game, only .5 fewer steals per game, and a true shooting percentage of 46.73% to H's 39.19% - and you can fact check that with this website (If you care to do the work, the values are as follows: H - 338 points, 396 FGA, 80 FTA ; Yuri - 379 points, 358 FGA, 108 FTA).

 

AND, I compared H's senior season to Yuri's junior season. He was a full year more developed and matured, (arguably) stacking the odds in his favor. 


Strength of schedule is more difficult to find historical data for but based on how wrong all of your other claims are we can guess that might be too. 

Sources:
https://saintlouisu_ftp.sidearmsports.com/custompages/MBB/stats/199495Stats.pdf (H's stats)
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/4432957/yuri-collins (Yuri's stats)

 

You need to check your math before you accuse someone else of making false claims.

Let's see what H's true shooting percentage was actually 64.3% percent in 94-95 and it was 62.3% in 93-94.  Yuri's was 53.9% last season, H's eFG% was 61.1% in 94-95 and 57.9% in 93-94.  Yuri's was 48.5%.  He was a far more efficient scorer and as someone who saw him play this was true at all three levels. H, also, had a better assist to turnover ratio.

I didn't know steals was the only way we judge defense, but even if that is the case..... H was better.  He shared the court with two below average defensive guards/wings and as result always had to guard the opponents top guard wing. 

You can see all the stats I used here along with those SOS's you imply I made up.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/saint-louis/

 

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, almaman said:

besides facts what else u got?

He didn't have facts.

[3star_recruit]

After the 35 point, 13 assist outburst last year at George Mason, including the game-winning coast to coast bucket, it became apparent to me that we were in uncharted territory at the point guard position.  Nothing I've seen after this season's three games has altered that opinion.  How does one measure what "uncharted territory" means?  I dunno, but I know when I see it.

[brianstl]

39 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

When H was here, I don't recall national media giving him respect as possibly being the best point guard in the country.  With Yuri, he's getting mentioned during the Texas/Gonzaga game.

Being efficient offensively was really undervalued 30 years ago.

[slufanskip]

13 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

After the 35 point, 13 assist outburst last year at George Mason, including the game-winning coast to coast bucket, it became apparent to me that we were in uncharted territory at the point guard position.  Nothing I've seen after this season's three games has altered that opinion.  How does one measure what "uncharted territory" means?  I dunno, but I know when I see it.

This is it exactly. My eyes tell me all I need to know.

And I hate this discussion as it makes me feel like I’m knocking H and I’m not He’s a top 5 all time Bill for me. 

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

When H was here, I don't recall national media giving him respect as possibly being the best point guard in the country.  With Yuri, he's getting mentioned during the Texas/Gonzaga game.

i think some of that has to do with the "evolution" of point guards.    iverson kind of ruined the point guard.   same with kyrie irving.   they no longer seem as pre-occupied with running an offense first.   in fact they are almost all score first point guards.   while yuri has progressed scoringwise, he is still a throwback point guard in a lot of respects.   and thus the basketball world notices such.  back in waldman's day they all were more point guards than scoring / combo guards imo.   

waldman was a pioneer in looking for the shot as much as initiating offense.   and there were others emerging with that same mindset.   yuri is taking the world back to the days of magic, bob cousy walt fraizer, etc.   a point guard that runs the offense.  

while it may seem i am making yuri's case, my point is that he is something different in today's game.   thus he is getting noticed for it.  

[dlarry]

33 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i think some of that has to do with the "evolution" of point guards.    iverson kind of ruined the point guard.   same with kyrie irving.   they no longer seem as pre-occupied with running an offense first.   in fact they are almost all score first point guards.   while yuri has progressed scoringwise, he is still a throwback point guard in a lot of respects.   and thus the basketball world notices such.  back in waldman's day they all were more point guards than scoring / combo guards imo.   

waldman was a pioneer in looking for the shot as much as initiating offense.   and there were others emerging with that same mindset.   yuri is taking the world back to the days of magic, bob cousy walt fraizer, etc.   a point guard that runs the offense.  

while it may seem i am making yuri's case, my point is that he is something different in today's game.   thus he is getting noticed for it.  

I agree with all you are saying except for one little part.

I don’t think ruined is the right word.

Iverson is one of the most exciting players to ever take the court. He changed the way people view a PG but he didn’t ruin anything. 

[Bills By 40]

2 hours ago, brianstl said:

You need to check your math before you accuse someone else of making false claims.

Let's see what H's true shooting percentage was actually 64.3% percent in 94-95 and it was 62.3% in 93-94.  Yuri's was 53.9% last season, H's eFG% was 61.1% in 94-95 and 57.9% in 93-94.  Yuri's was 48.5%.  He was a far more efficient scorer and as someone who saw him play this was true at all three levels. H, also, had a better assist to turnover ratio.

I didn't know steals was the only way we judge defense, but even if that is the case..... H was better.  He shared the court with two below average defensive guards/wings and as result always had to guard the opponents top guard wing. 

You can see all the stats I used here along with those SOS's you imply I made up.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/saint-louis/

 

How did you come to those conclusions on true shooting percentage? I used a reputable true shooting % calculator, drew the exact statistics from SLU and ESPN record books, and posted all of the above with sources in my post. The assist to turnover ratio could be compared to usage rate if that is documented back to '94-'95. 

Didn't say steals were the only way we judge defense because it isn't, but what other objective quantifiable way is there to do so? (*That I have time to do at work*)

SOS is irrelevant to this conversation because 1) there's no denying that H's teams were far better than Yuri's last year and 2) there's a direct correlation between a player's ability to perform against stronger competition and the support he has from the team around him. If you disagree with this then there's no sense in debating with you. 

More importantly, using https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/stats/efg_calc.html, I found much different results for your effective field goal % calculations. It tells me that in '94-'95 H's eFG% was 53.16% and Yuri's last year was 46.51%. This metric places a major emphasis on 3PT shooting but I would've never argued with you if the argument was H was a better 3PT shooter. The reason True Shooting Percentage was invented is because eFG% completely disregards FT shooting and places a huge emphasis on 3's, not the most accurate measurement of a player. I ask that you read this article highlighting the differences between the two: https://squared2020.com/2017/10/10/relationship-between-ts-and-efg/. 

I went and chose a different true shooting % calculator to recheck my numbers and came out with the exact same results - H in '94-'95 with a true shooting % of 39.2% and Yuri in '21-'22 with a true shooting % of 46.7%. I used the attached stat sheet from the official SLU website under the Year-By-Year Statistics page and the ESPN website for Yuri's - two indisputable sources. Other than lying how are you so sure I'm wrong? 

[Bills By 40]

And for good measure @brianstl here I attached two screenshots of me using the calculator and entering those official statistics to come to the true shooting percentages that I’m quoting. First is H and second is Yuri. 

[brianstl]

34 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

And for good measure @brianstl here I attached two screenshots of me using the calculator and entering those official statistics to come to the true shooting percentages that I’m quoting. First is H and second is Yuri. 

H only had 225 FGA in 94-95.  54 2pt FGA attempts and 171 3pt FGA.  You added 171 3pt FGA to a number that already included his 3pt FGA.  You did the same with Yuri.

Like I said, check your math.

[brianstl]

Seriously if you don't know FGA already include 3pt FGA, you might want to sit this out.  Next time avoid the math and just go to https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/h-waldman-1.html to find someone who did the math already for you.

[brianstl]

You don’t really understand what usage rate actually tells us either.