thetorch Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 In honor of Yuri breaking the all time assist record I've been thinking about all the great Billiken PGs. Who is the best? No different designations, a pg is a pg, which means whether he shoots drives or passes he is the principal ball handler on the team. No pure points, no lead guards, no combo guards, no scoring guards. Everyone is a pg. Big question for me is do we count Jett and Lisch as pgs? I say no but I am open to arguments. My top 10 1. David Burns 2. H Waldman 3. Kwamain 4. Marque Perry 5. Yuri 6. Jimmy Irving 7. Jordan Goodwin 8. Josh Fisher 9. Charlie Newberry 10. Pee Wee Lenard Ray Steiner and Lou Lehman belong on the list with probably 1 or 2 other earlier pgs but I never saw them play and neither did the generation before me so hard to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 8 hours ago, thetorch said: In honor of Yuri breaking the all time assist record I've been thinking about all the great Billiken PGs. Who is the best? No different designations, a pg is a pg, which means whether he shoots drives or passes he is the principal ball handler on the team. No pure points, no lead guards, no combo guards, no scoring guards. Everyone is a pg. Big question for me is do we count Jett and Lisch as pgs? I say no but I am open to arguments. My top 10 1. David Burns 2. H Waldman 3. Kwamain 4. Marque Perry 5. Yuri 6. Jimmy Irving 7. Jordan Goodwin 8. Josh Fisher 9. Charlie Newberry 10. Pee Wee Lenard Ray Steiner and Lou Lehman belong on the list with probably 1 or 2 other earlier pgs but I never saw them play and neither did the generation before me so hard to judge. pretty good list, i would switch collins and mitchell. man tough call though. man jimmy irving at 6 is a tough pick but i dont know who i would move down to move him up. same with fisher and newberry. i might not have pee wee on the list. if you were looking for a way to put steiner or lehman on the list. i dont think lisch and jett were point guards. they obviously could play it when needed but they were definitely scorers first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 I understand Burns was a great scorer on bad teams but his horrible assist to turnover ratio seems to me the antithesis of a point guard. If you put him on a good team, he's a 15 ppg guy with an okay assist to turnover ratio. Still top 2 but I put the natural quarterback Waldman over him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 I’d include Jim Roder, who held the single game assist record, which he did in the NIT. Perhaps make the list the Top 15 to include all deserving. While I certainly would include David Burns on this list, LaTodd Johnson played some point guard with David Burns on the floor. VeniceMenace likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnkielBreakers Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 This is a strange list because Yuri is a sophomore(-ish). I believe Yuri is and will be Number 1 on this list. He will blow away all of the assists records by a mile. His scoring is decent. Defense is great. In games where he keeps his turnovers low, it feels like an indisputable fact. Somewhere, Mike McCall is hitting a heavy bag in frustration. Bills By 40, Dr. Holly Hills and JohnnyJumpUp like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliesBy40 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 At their best, Jett was more of a PG than Goodwin. RUBillsFan, StlBills, TRN and 2 others like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 7 minutes ago, BilliesBy40 said: At their best, Jett was more of a PG than Goodwin. you mean triple double goodwin? goodwin would have been the primary point guard had the wonderous yuri not come along. he did well as the backup. but i wouldnt argue if we removed goodwin from the list as well and put him in the same category as jett and lisch. maybe we need to start another list of great billiken combo guards. BilliesBy40 likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliesBy40 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 34 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: you mean triple double goodwin? goodwin would have been the primary point guard had the wonderous yuri not come along. he did well as the backup. but i wouldnt argue if we removed goodwin from the list as well and put him in the same category as jett and lisch. maybe we need to start another list of great billiken combo guards. You're right. And Goodwin's career numbers are ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 1 hour ago, AnkielBreakers said: This is a strange list because Yuri is a sophomore(-ish). I believe Yuri is and will be Number 1 on this list. He will blow away all of the assists records by a mile. His scoring is decent. Defense is great. In games where he keeps his turnovers low, it feels like an indisputable fact. Somewhere, Mike McCall is hitting a heavy bag in frustration. If McCall got to play in Ford's offense with the shooters we have, he would be very high on this list. I think he's maybe the most underrated billiken of my fandom (post-2000ish) Bizziken, rgbilliken, wgstl and 4 others like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Can’t speak for anyone pre-Majerus era, but for one game I still have to go with Kwamain over Yuri. I don’t even want to try and fold Goodwin and Jett into the conversation lol. McCall always seemed to be more of the ball-handler on those Jett teams; would slot him third. Lisch was more of a pure SG. Bizziken and MusicCityBilliken like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Also, I think Kwam was a combo guard in a PG's body. If he was 6-3 instead of 5-11, he plays the 2. Although, if he was 6-2, he isn't plying for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 10 minutes ago, Littlebill said: Also, I think Kwam was a combo guard in a PG's body. If he was 6-3 instead of 5-11, he plays the 2. Although, if he was 6-2, he isn't plying for us. If we aren't calling Jett a PG, I'm not sure how we can call Kwam or McCall PGs either. Jett actually finished his career with the most assists of that trio. He had 422, Kwam had 420 (in the fewest games), and McCall 339. If we had to pick a primary ball hander, I'd say that each had a year or more that they fit the description. Kwam was probably the guy his first 3 years, McCall his freshman year, and Jett his senior year. Interesting thing about the really good Majerus teams is that they did not have a true PG, but had those 3 combo guards / guys who could handle the ball & run the offense (I'd add Cassity as another guy who could run things, but without the same scoring ability). It made our offense more dynamic / harder to defend to have those 3 guys who could run the offense / handle the ball. Contrast that with our team today. If you have a solid plan to disrupt Yuri (easier said than done), things can grind to a halt even though I think we have more offensive talent on the current team. Duff Man, TheA_Bomb, MusicCityBilliken and 2 others like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 I don't know about downgrading Burns. He was metro POY. That league had 20 future NBA players at the time and he was POY on the worst team in the league. I think on a better team he averages 25 points a game and 5 assists instead of seeing poorer numbers. A/TO is hard to use with a scoring PG, especially one with so little offensive options around him. I love Mike McCall. He gets punished because he played next to two really dominant players and he just didn't have that type of game in him. He was just super steady and not flashy. I think if you look back Kwamain was the principal ball handler from the moment he stepped on campus. The year he was out Cassity was. When he came back and wasn't quite as strong we had this 3 headed monster plus Cassity who was no slouch. If we were facing a press Mitchell was bring the ball up while he was here. Jett was the principal ball handler his final season but he was always the backup guy whenever he was on the court prior to that. McCall handled it even less, he was almost the SG of that tandem. Jett's Senior year he handled the ball so much he transcended the PG position. I still don't think I count either of them. Goodwin was definitely the PG his first two seasons, you can't deny his triple double and nearly 3 triple doubles in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Kwamain was more of a combo guard imo. He averaged 3.4 assists and 2.3 t/o per game. He never had a season with 4 assists per game. David Burns 4.2/4.2 Marquee the same 3.0/2.9 for his career At least H was a true distributor of the ball. His SLU stats 5.0/2.0 He was a very good passer with an outstanding assist/to ratio I think my definition of a pg and many on here are different. Being the guy that brings the ball up the floor may make you a 1 but it doesn’t make you a real pg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremio14 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Who was the point guard on the Larry Hughes team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Man Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Mitchell, Jett, and McCall were all combo guards. None of them were as pure of PGs as H or Yuri...but they were all Billiken HOF caliber combo guards. Lisch and Goodwin were scoring guards who would play PG out of necessity given the makeup of the roster. There's no wrong answers, these are all Billiken greats. If you're just talking pure pass first point guard skills, I think it's H and Yuri and then everyone else.... Fraz, slufanskip and Schasz like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Light Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 20 minutes ago, Gremio14 said: Who was the point guard on the Larry Hughes team? Mostly Jamal Walker. John Redden got some minutes too. Gremio14 likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraz Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 The fact Goodwin is in a PG discussion as the Billikens’ 4th all time leading rebounder is insane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 1 hour ago, HoosierPal said: Gilyard has over 6 assists a game with a 3.5 a/to ratio. There's only 1 other player with 6+ assists per game over 2.5 right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 1 hour ago, HoosierPal said: Yuri averages more APG for his career than Gilyard does this year, his extra year which happens to be his best. rgbilliken likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 40 minutes ago, Littlebill said: Yuri averages more APG for his career than Gilyard does this year, his extra year which happens to be his best. Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Gilyard is doing a great job distributing the ball and protecting it. I don't think it was meant as a comparison to Yuri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 down by 1pt with 10 seconds left... Jett down by 2pt with 10 seconds left... Kwamain majerus mojo, RUBillsFan, Westy03 and 1 other like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 1 hour ago, slufanskip said: Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Gilyard is doing a great job distributing the ball and protecting it. I don't think it was meant as a comparison to Yuri I don't think it was either. My post was. There's a gulf in class between them slufanskip likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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