Coach Rich Grawer appreciation

[billiken_roy]

25 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Looking back at Grawer's tenure, they lost to Xavier in the MCC tournament final in 1986 (8 point loss), 1987 (12 point loss), and 1991 (16 point loss).

SLU finished 2nd in the regular season MCC standings in 1986 and 1989.

So 1986 was the only year when they were the clear cut 2nd best team - but they went 18-12. This was when Douglass and Gray were freshmen and Bonner was a SR at Vashon.

In 1986-87 the MCC had 2 teams 8-4 and 2 teams 7-5 including SLU.  IF they had just avoided road losses at sub .500 Oral Roberts and Butler, they'd have won the MCC outright (9-3) instead of being tied for 3rd and would have been 22-6 headed into the MCC tournament (where they lost to Xavier in the final) instead of 20-8.

The 1988 team was undone by the Upchurch fiasco and they were just a .500 team finishing 3rd in the MCC and lost to Detroit in the 1st round of the MCC tournament.

The 1988-89 team (Douglass/Gray SR year, Bonner's JR year) finished 2nd in the MCC in the regular season behind Evansville, but got smoked by Xavier in the MCC semis and 3rd place Xavier went on to win the auto-bid. Xavier (led by Tyrone Hill) ended up a 14-seed and lost to eventual national champion Michigan by 5 in the first round.

That 1989 team was Grawer's best chance and ultimately they were undone by road losses to Dayton and Detroit. Also they had single digit road losses at SMS, Colorado, Memphis St and Xavier plus a 3 point loss vs top 10 Iowa on a neutral court - if they had won 2 of those resume builders and avoided the 2 bad conference losses, they'd have tied Evansville (or finished 1st if one of the resume builders was the game at Xavier) and would have been 26-4 heading into the MCC tournament instead of 22-8 and even more importantly they could have potentially avoided Xavier until the final...

The 1990 team was undone by injuries/illness and suspensions and fell apart in the opening round of the MCC tournament, losing to Loyola.

The MCC got 2 bids in Bonner's JR and SR seasons. Evansville (at large) and Xavier (auto-bid) made the dance in 1989 while Xavier (at-large) and Dayton (auto-bid) made it in 1990.

It was tough to make the dance as an at-large but it was possible. Grawer's teams never finished 1st in the conference regular season and only once made the conference tournament final in a year when they finished 2nd in the regular season - and that team was 18-12.

There was clearly a scenario where they could have made it in 1987 or 1989 - but they just didn't take care of business on the road against the bottom feeders of the MCC.

 

 

you had to look this up?   werent you on this team ?

btw, are you encouraging your son to consider SLU?

[billiken_roy]

since the ncaa now owns and runs the NIT, i wish they would consider using the NIT (lessen the nit entries to 16) as one leg of the ncaa tourney.   so when we get to the final four, the nit champion is in the final four.  

[dennis_w]

34 minutes ago, GOSLU68 said:

Not a Grawer fan- the way he actually prioritized talent on the floor was extremely old school. He really works at a better level for himself now. I enjoyed those games where he got a bonus when people went to the games and the old Kiel was an ideal place to play. I don’t see him in the community as a SLU booster.

slu crapped on grawer at the end, dont see a reason he should be slu booster now

[Duff Man]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

you had to look this up?   werent you on this team ?

btw, are you encouraging your son to consider SLU?

[Duff Man]

1 hour ago, thetorch said:

I'd love a deep dive on the 88 team from one of the players or the coaching staff.

Going into the season the Billikens were favored to win the conference, were in several pre season NCAA tourney previews and made SI's top 40 preseason teams.  As an 9 year old that had me the most excited as I read SI voraciously.

Was it all Upchurch?  Were there other things going on behind the scenes?  This team had a ton of talent, maybe the most that Grawer ever had and they completely sh*t the bed.

 

I'd also like anyone with more behind the scenes intel beyond what was printed in the Post-Dispatch to chime in on how things went off the rails that year.

The shoe dropped on Upchurch in mid August and I think it just put the entire program in a bad spot headed into the season. Injuries were also a factor.

I know Bonner had disciplinary issues with Grawer - and obviously they worked it out but in the meantime they lost games.

The thing that kills me is that they made the MCC finals and lost to Xavier in 1986, 1987 and 1991 - but the 3 year run when they should have been peaking w/ Bonner/Douglass/Gray - they twice lost to single digit win teams in the opening round of the conference tournament.

[Bay Area Billiken]

3 hours ago, JettFlight5 said:

This is back when the NIT mattered more. Y'all know my views on today's version. 

SLU Basketball was at bedrock level rock bottom when Rich Grawer took over.

The Craig Upchurch Fiasco most likely derailed Grawer’s teams from overcoming Xavier and reaching the NCAA Tournament.  I do agree as is, the inability to win consistently on the road hurt SLU’s chances. However, had Upchurch been on those teams, arguably a good number of those road losses would have been wins and SLU without question would have had a stronger team competing for the auto bids in the MCC Tourneys.

[RUBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Duff Man said:

Looking back at Grawer's tenure, they lost to Xavier in the MCC tournament final in 1986 (8 point loss), 1987 (12 point loss), and 1991 (16 point loss).

SLU finished 2nd in the regular season MCC standings in 1986 and 1989.

So 1986 was the only year when they were the clear cut 2nd best team - but they went 18-12. This was when Douglass and Gray were freshmen and Bonner was a SR at Vashon.

In 1986-87 the MCC had 2 teams 8-4 and 2 teams 7-5 including SLU.  IF they had just avoided road losses at sub .500 Oral Roberts and Butler, they'd have won the MCC outright (9-3) instead of being tied for 3rd and would have been 22-6 headed into the MCC tournament (where they lost to Xavier in the final) instead of 20-8.

The 1988 team was undone by the Upchurch fiasco and they were just a .500 team finishing 3rd in the MCC and lost to Detroit in the 1st round of the MCC tournament.

The 1988-89 team (Douglass/Gray SR year, Bonner's JR year) finished 2nd in the MCC in the regular season behind Evansville, but got smoked by Xavier in the MCC semis and 3rd place Xavier went on to win the auto-bid. Xavier (led by Tyrone Hill) ended up a 14-seed and lost to eventual national champion Michigan by 5 in the first round.

That 1989 team was Grawer's best chance and ultimately they were undone by road losses to Dayton and Detroit. Also they had single digit road losses at SMS, Colorado, Memphis St and Xavier plus a 3 point loss vs top 10 Iowa on a neutral court - if they had won 2 of those resume builders and avoided the 2 bad conference losses, they'd have tied Evansville (or finished 1st if one of the resume builders was the game at Xavier) and would have been 26-4 heading into the MCC tournament instead of 22-8 and even more importantly they could have potentially avoided Xavier until the final...

The 1990 team was undone by injuries/illness and suspensions and fell apart in the opening round of the MCC tournament, losing to Loyola.

The MCC got 2 bids in Bonner's JR and SR seasons. Evansville (at large) and Xavier (auto-bid) made the dance in 1989 while Xavier (at-large) and Dayton (auto-bid) made it in 1990.

It was tough to make the dance as an at-large but it was possible. Grawer's teams never finished 1st in the conference regular season and only once made the conference tournament final in a year when they finished 2nd in the regular season - and that team was 18-12.

There was clearly a scenario where they could have made it in 1987 or 1989 - but they just didn't take care of business on the road against the bottom feeders of the MCC.

 

 

Reading through this you can really see some parallels with Travis Ford's tenure and it is semi-hilarious that we have MBMs calling for him to get fired and MBMs calling for Grawer to be honored as a program savior.

Examples:

1. Grawer took over a dumpster fire after Ekker had driven the program into the ground.  Ditto for Ford after the Crews fiasco, but I'll concede the program was/is in much better shape when Ford took over than Grawer.
2. I'm seeing a lot of promising seasons undone by close road losses to lesser teams under Grawer.  Sounds familiar.
3. Folks seem to be willing to use the Upchurch thing as an excuse for what should have been a good season, but IMO Ford has similar circumstances happen a few times:
   1. His 2nd year (2017-18) after situation 2 when he lost a bunch of guys that were expected to be major contributors (Henriquez, Graves, Bishop).  That team still finished .500 in the A-10 and 17-16 overall.
   2. The following year (2018-19), Luis Santos was kicked off the team & Carte'are Gordon left mid-season.  That team ended up winning the A-10
   3. This season we lost Perkins to injury right before the start of the season.

[Box and Won]

3 hours ago, Duff Man said:

That 1989 team was Grawer's best chance and ultimately they were undone by road losses to Dayton and Detroit. Also they had single digit road losses at SMS, Colorado, Memphis St and Xavier plus a 3 point loss vs top 10 Iowa on a neutral court 

 

[Brighton]

Bakken brought the Big Red curse with him to Midtown.

[almaman]

3 hours ago, dennis_w said:

slu crapped on grawer at the end, dont see a reason he should be slu booster now

yep

[cheeseman]

The Upchurch thing was a big dagger in Grawer's plans and long term success.  It happened a couple of years or so before things went bad for him.  He started recruiting questionable character players to try to get over the hump and his style of handling kids was just not in step with how kids then were use to being treated.  His recruiting plan blew up in his face and that last year he had a good core of freshmen but they were not ready to carry the load.  He was in trouble and honestly most fans figured he was gone and they embraced Spoon with open arms.  The Jesuit who would not yet Upchurch in after going to summer school to prove he could do the academics was an ass - yes I knew him personally.  Biondi should have overruled him but once again, he had no real interest or understanding of what an athletic program needed in the ways to be successful.  If Biondi had given Grawer the proper backing he needed and was able to rethink his discipline approach towards players he could have been here a long time but those are big ifs. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/craig-upchurch-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/rich-grawer-1.html

There is a direct correlation between the Craig Upchurch Fiasco and the results of the SLU Basketball Program under Coach Rich Grawer during his last 5 years at the helm.  The '88-'89 and '89-'90 SLU teams were both NIT runner-ups, which would have been Upchurch's Sophomore and Junior seasons.

[courtside]

4 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

Reading through this you can really see some parallels with Travis Ford's tenure and it is semi-hilarious that we have MBMs calling for him to get fired and MBMs calling for Grawer to be honored as a program savior.

Examples:

1. Grawer took over a dumpster fire after Ekker had driven the program into the ground.  Ditto for Ford after the Crews fiasco, but I'll concede the program was/is in much better shape when Ford took over than Grawer.
2. I'm seeing a lot of promising seasons undone by close road losses to lesser teams under Grawer.  Sounds familiar.
3. Folks seem to be willing to use the Upchurch thing as an excuse for what should have been a good season, but IMO Ford has similar circumstances happen a few times:
   1. His 2nd year (2017-18) after situation 2 when he lost a bunch of guys that were expected to be major contributors (Henriquez, Graves, Bishop).  That team still finished .500 in the A-10 and 17-16 overall.
   2. The following year (2018-19), Luis Santos was kicked off the team & Carte'are Gordon left mid-season.  That team ended up winning the A-10
   3. This season we lost Perkins to injury right before the start of the season.

It helps to take into account differing circumstances. Let’s talk budgets. Let’s talk travel. Let’s talk administration. Let’s facilities, and on down the list. Not exactly apples to apples. And that isn’t anything against Travis. 

[RUBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, courtside said:

It helps to take into account differing circumstances. Let’s talk budgets. Let’s talk travel. Let’s talk administration. Let’s facilities, and on down the list. Not exactly apples to apples. And that isn’t anything against Travis. 

Agreed.  On the flip side, competitive landscape has changed dramatically as well.  I'd guess most big time D1 athletic budgets have skyrocketed since the 80s, conference re-alignment again & again, most schools have upgraded facilities, etc.  Definitely not apples to apples.

[courtside]

7 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Agreed.  On the flip side, competitive landscape has changed dramatically as well.  I'd guess most big time D1 athletic budgets have skyrocketed since the 80s, conference re-alignment again & again, most schools have upgraded facilities, etc.  Definitely not apples to apples.

It’s always vs your peers, in a similar era. That goes without saying. How was SLU vs its peers, then, and now? Example:

https://www.three-man-weave.com/3mw/college-basketball-budgets-2020