3 Point Shooting and Shot Selection

[brianstl]

13 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

And counting numbers don't have as much use when French played on a team with a big time scorer in Perkins (plus Goodwin) and a big time rebounder in Goodwin. Okoro is our only elite rebounding option on both ends when he is playing. Maybe Thatch?

 

French was limited in only being 6-7, and being the worst FT shooter we have seen. FTs aside, Has was a much more complete and (IMO) better player than Okoro. But we have to shoot FTs and that brings them a lot closer. If Has shot FTs at even a 70% clip, he would be on the mount rushmore of Bills (is that even that hot of a take?).

 

Okoro's unwillingness to pass is even more frustrating when you think about the fact that, at basically all times, we have 3-4 real three point threats on the floor with him, something French did not have... more like 2 in his case

Jimerson ppg this season 16.7.  Perkins ppg last season 17.1.  The increased scoring of Collins and the addition of Nesbitt have more than made up for Goodwin's ppg.  On rebounding, Goodwin was a once in a lifetime freak from the guard position.  

[wgstl]

My issue with okoro, his footwork takes him further away from the rim. Look where he receives the pass, sets up, does his moves, and see that he’s 2-3 feet further away at this point. He doesn’t have the soft touch for this. 
 

french and linssen and most quality bigs have moved that get them closer to the rim. 

[Littlebill]

3 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I'm not sure I would take Has over Okoro because of the FT difference. Opponents knew all they had to do to slow Has down was put him on the line. They have to think twice about doing that to Franco. 

100%

[slufanskip]

Just now, slu72 said:

I'm not sure I would take Has over Okoro because of the FT difference. Opponents knew all they had to do to slow Has down was put him on the line. They have to think twice about doing that to Franco. 

No doubt the free throws with Has were an issue. 

[Bills By 40]

Imagine, if you will, a world in which we have a Has at the 4 and an Okoro at the 5. Would that be the best Billiken front court of all time?

[wgstl]

Just now, Bills By 40 said:

Imagine, if you will, a world in which we have a Has at the 4 and an Okoro at the 5. Would that be the best Billiken front court of all time?

We were just one year off from this lineup.

yuri 

goodwin

perkins

french 

okoro 

——

jimerson 

nesbitt

Linssen

hargrove 

thatch 

[brianstl]

6 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

So French's Sr season where he clearly took a step back and we don't know how much of a role Covid played are the stats you are going to select to compare the 2? 

As of this moment I'll take French over Okoro easily. I'm not going to consider French's Sr season as the real Has. I would have said I thought Okoro had a higher ceiling and by the end of his career his best will be better than Has best. I'd still say I lean that way, just not as strongly as I once thought. 

Anytime Okoro gets the ball within 6 or so feet of the basket, he should be looking to score unless a double comes. At that point he needs to recognize it's coming quicker and move the ball back out quicker. But, when he's 1v1 I'm like Roy, I want him trying to score 

Has rebounded and scored more his Jr season because he played 7 more minutes a game.  

I went with his senior season because it was the most recent season and the closest when it comes to MPG to Okoro this season.  Right now I would take Has, too.  It is just a hell of a lot closer than I thought and most people will admit right now.

[NH]

5 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Has rebounded and scored more his Jr season because he played 7 more minutes a game.  

I went with his senior season because it was the most recent season and the closest when it comes to MPG to Okoro this season.  Right now I would take Has, too.  It is just a hell of a lot closer than I thought and most people will admit right now.

I’ve got nothing but good things to say about Has and will continue to beat the drum that because of how horrible his FT shooting was fans began to underestimate the rest of his game.

I also agree that Okoro’s contributions have been underrated. As you pointed out, his counting stats are solid. His defensive metrics are off the charts (best on our team). He’s been an elite offensive rebounder and a very good defensive rebounder. And he’s done better at avoiding foul trouble than I expected.

[slufanskip]

5 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Has rebounded and scored more his Jr season because he played 7 more minutes a game.  

I went with his senior season because it was the most recent season and the closest when it comes to MPG to Okoro this season.  Right now I would take Has, too.  It is just a hell of a lot closer than I thought and most people will admit right now.

For me it's a clear Has at his best over the right now Okoro at his best. However, if I had to make a choice on what I'd say a year or 2 from now, I'd probably say Okoro because I just think he has so much upside. I think he can be a 15/10 guy. 

[brianstl]

Per 40 minute French Jr season vs. Okoro this season

Points-French 15.5, Okoro 16

Rebounds-French 13, Okoro 13.6

Blocks-French 3.2, Okoro 2.8

Assists-French 2.9, Okoro 0.6

Turnovers-French 2.6, Okoro 1.7

FG%-French 52%, Okoro 53%

FT%-French 33%, Okoro 74%

[Bills By 40]

14 minutes ago, wgstl said:

We were just one year off from this lineup.

yuri 

goodwin

perkins

french 

okoro 

——

jimerson 

nesbitt

Linssen

hargrove 

thatch 

That's a wet dream 

 

We could sub 5-in 5-out and our second 5 would still be a top-4 team in the A10

[wgstl]

10 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

That's a wet dream 

 

We could sub 5-in 5-out and our second 5 would still be a top-4 team in the A10

Would likely have been the best rebounding team in the nation, and top 15 defensively.  

[slufanskip]

12 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Per 40 minute French Jr season vs. Okoro this season

Points-French 15.5, Okoro 16

Rebounds-French 13, Okoro 13.6

Blocks-French 3.2, Okoro 2.8

Assists-French 2.9, Okoro 0.6

Turnovers-French 2.6, Okoro 1.7

FG%-French 52%, Okoro 53%

FT%-French 33%, Okoro 74%

Using 40 minute stats is nice but you have to be able to stay on the floor for 40 for it to be relevant. 

Look I've watched them both. I really don't care if others would prefer Okoro. Great. I don't want to continue this as it makes it seem like I'm dogging Okoro and I'm not. 

[BIG BILL FAN]

4 hours ago, slufan13 said:

Why do we have to bring up French's passing when talking about Okoro's lack of passing? Yes French was a good passer out of the post most times but saying we were spoiled by French seems like the wrong approach. I'm not asking Okoro to average 2.5 apg but I am asking him to even attempt a pass out of the post more than once every few games. 

you're right, but let's be honest, French had to learn to pass out of the post because of his, and our fear of him being fouled.... that said, Okoro needs to pass more, particularly when he's doubled....

[A10Ref]

This team needs Linssen... I really believe that if Linssen didn't go down, we would've beaten auburn and dayton.

[3star_recruit]

6 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

french weakness was more than free throws.   he couldnt shoot a lick.   anything beyond 3 feet was not going to happen.   

i loved french's energy and sheer beat mode strength.  he was a very good rebounder and defender.   but personally i will take okoro over him.   plus okoro has a higher ceiling.   

Okoro has already demonstrated effectiveness against other athletic 6'9 players.  Those are the players French struggled against, because he was undersized.

Okoro will never be the passer that French was.  French is one of the best passing big men in SLU history.  It takes all of Okoro's concentration just to make his move and convert.  Expecting a guy who has to work that hard on offense to transform into even a decent passer is a bridge too far. 

We've only got Okoro for another year and a half.  His time is best spent refining his offense.  Traore at least has the time to become the above average passer that MBMs are looking for.  He's already a better passer than Franco.

[wgstl]

19 minutes ago, A10Ref said:

This team needs Linssen... I really believe that if Linssen didn't go down, we would've beaten auburn and dayton.

Likely yes. 

[BuiltFordBills]

2 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Anytime Okoro gets the ball within 6 or so feet of the basket, he should be looking to score unless a double comes. At that point he needs to recognize it's coming quicker and move the ball back out quicker. But, when he's 1v1 I'm like Roy, I want him trying to score 

This is basically my thoughts on this as well.

The one thing I want to pay more attention to is how much okoro is getting doubled.  French's last 2 years for the bills he was basically an auto double and because of this he was able to get a good amount of assists.  From my memory at least I do not think teams are doubling okoro that much because they are content with manning him up 1 on 1 in the post.  If his offensive numbers go up his assists will hopefully follow because he will be getting doubled more.

[RUBillsFan]

35 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

you're right, but let's be honest, French had to learn to pass out of the post because of his, and our fear of him being fouled.... that said, Okoro needs to pass more, particularly when he's doubled....

French became a better passer as his career progressed, but he was always a better passer than Okoro is right now.

French assist rates:

Fr: 12.0

So: 10.7

Jr: 15.1

Sr: 17.8

Okoro assist rates:

Fr (at Oregon): 2.2

So (at Oregon): 2.4

Jr: 2.8

[3star_recruit]

 

11 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

French became a better passer as his career progressed, but he was always a better passer than Okoro is right now.

French assist rates:

Fr: 12.0

So: 10.7

Jr: 15.1

Sr: 17.8

Okoro assist rates:

Fr (at Oregon): 2.2

So (at Oregon): 2.4

Jr: 2.8

Exactly, it's not even close.  French was already an above average passer when he walked on campus.  If we could get 1 apg out of Okoro by his senior year, that would be a quantum leap forward.  Kind of like hoping for 50% from the free throw line from French.

[BIG BILL FAN]

3 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

French became a better passer as his career progressed, but he was always a better passer than Okoro is right now.

French assist rates:

Fr: 12.0

So: 10.7

Jr: 15.1

Sr: 17.8

Okoro assist rates:

Fr (at Oregon): 2.2

So (at Oregon): 2.4

Jr: 2.8

no doubt about, I was just  pointing out that French out of necessity and fear of having to go to the line, focused a lot more on passing.  Agree 100% that Okoro needs to do better...

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, Bills By 40 said:

Imagine, if you will, a world in which we have a Has at the 4 and an Okoro at the 5. Would that be the best Billiken front court of all time?

Playing two guys with 5 for shooting radius would severely clog the lane. 

[slufanskip]

16 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Playing two guys with 5 for shooting radius would severely clog the lane. 

Especially 2 that just don't move the ball out. Ford has really never had that stretch 4 type player. I think it's something his teams have missed. 

[cgeldmacher]

3 hours ago, Bills By 40 said:

Imagine, if you will, a world in which we have a Has at the 4 and an Okoro at the 5. Would that be the best Billiken front court of all time?

Remember, your talking about a program that has had NBA HOF'er Ed McCauley and Anthony Bonner.  Whoever they had playing the four or the five with them, they were still better than Okoro and French would be.  That's not a knock on Okoro and French.

[Bills By 40]

1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

Playing two guys with 5 for shooting radius would severely clog the lane. 

Do you remember how often French ran the offense from the free throw line? He could even put the ball on the floor a bit. I think Ford could build an offense around that duo. Especially if we ran a set with Yuri/Goodwin at the 1 and Jimerson and Perkins on the wings. That's plenty of stretch.