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4 game observations and surprises


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18 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

1 - I'm comparing a season in which French started all 19 games played, to the current one in which Okoro has played 5 and started in none. It's not apples-to-apples but also not a favorable advantage to either man. 

2 - I'm using Common Core math ;) really I just think if he had 6 extra minutes per game we'd see an extra two or three buckets out of him and that's not mathematically accurate but we've seen how he runs the floor, or the block-to-fast break layup we saw yesterday...I can't help but think he'd get in a better rhythm with those extra minutes and we'd see 4 FGM per game.  

3 - This is something I hope levels out more as the season plays on. Maybe it's due to playing in a new system in a new state after a full year off and covid crazy?? We'll see, but yeah you're correct. 

Hard to objectively compare the two, but, SUBJECTIVELY, I'm taking FO 3/4 times.  

Considering Covid had a clear affect on the entire team, I don't believe it's a fair comparison. Also French's numbers aren't against Memphis and 4 cupcakes. French's stats are against LSU, Minn, NC State, Dayton x 2, The Bonnies x 2, Richmond, VCU ...

#2 we're basing that on your feeling that the extra 6 min will get him an extra 1.6 fg per game when his 1st 18 only got him 2.6? Ok

I edited and added the assist totals. You left those out

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40 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

1. You are using a Covid shortened season to compare French with Okoro. 

2. Unless you're using new math FGM category is not a wash. Okoro has played 75% of the minutes French played but is only at about 60% of the FG made. 

3. Okoro's fouls against are more than just slightly more. 

4. Did I miss where you looked at assists and compared French's 2.3 pg to Okoro's 0.4? 

I appreciate the work to put together the analysis though. Nice job

 

I agree, that French was a better passer at times, but he consistently frustrated me with his penchant for holding the  ball too long...at this point, the ball movement has been far better with Linssen and Okoro...

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13 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Considering Covid had a clear affect on the entire team, I don't believe it's a fair comparison. Also French's numbers aren't against Memphis and 4 cupcakes. French's stats are against LSU, Minn, NC State, Dayton x 2, The Bonnies x 2, Richmond, VCU ...

#2 we're basing that on your feeling that the extra 6 min will get him an extra 1.6 fg per game when his 1st 18 only got him 2.6? Ok

I edited and added the assist totals. You left those out

If FO could finish around the rim like French, the Memphis game probably stays competitive for a lot longer.

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1 hour ago, Littlebill said:

If FO could finish around the rim like French, the Memphis game probably stays competitive for a lot longer.

Without a doubt, but I'd be surprised if we don't see FO's ability to finish through contact improve exponentially through this season and into next and that's based on absolutely nothing beyond his physical stature.  

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1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

#2 we're basing that on your feeling that the extra 6 min will get him an extra 1.6 fg per game when his 1st 18 only got him 2.6? Ok

I edited and added the assist totals. You left those out

Longer stretches of play = better momentum and chemistry with the rotation. It's nothing more than a hunch. 

I noticed the assists difference but I'd argue that difference is offset by turnovers and therefore irrelevant; Has racked up those assists because we so often ran the offense through him, the same reason he had more turnovers. If we did so with Okoro I imagine we'd see similar numbers, at least closer, but as of now we don't run any offense to give him that opportunity. 

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50 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

Longer stretches of play = better momentum and chemistry with the rotation. It's nothing more than a hunch. 

I noticed the assists difference but I'd argue that difference is offset by turnovers and therefore irrelevant; Has racked up those assists because we so often ran the offense through him, the same reason he had more turnovers. If we did so with Okoro I imagine we'd see similar numbers, at least closer, but as of now we don't run any offense to give him that opportunity. 

Yes, Absolutely nothing more than a hunch. LOL

You are creative with numbers. You called the FG per game a wash even though the numbers favor French due to your hunch.

Then you give Okoro credit for turnovers but not French for assists. So the ball going through French though noted wasn't enough to get him your point on turnovers, but the ball going through him more does negate his assist advantage. 

Why put up the actual stats when in reality it's just basically the way you feel, not based on any true reality

BTW ... This is Jr year Hasahn French Stats  12.4/10.4/2.3 

It's a little early to imo to start claiming Okoro is better than French was. I'm very happy with Okoro but we seem to be forgetting how good French actually was.

 

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5 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Yes, Absolutely nothing more than a hunch. LOL

You are creative with numbers. You called the FG per game a wash even though the numbers favor French due to your hunch.

Then you give Okoro credit for turnovers but not French for assists. So the ball going through French though noted wasn't enough to get him your point on turnovers, but the ball going through him more does negate his assist advantage. 

Why put up the actual stats when in reality it's just basically the way you feel, not based on any true reality

The limited numbers we have absolutely support French being a better passer and post up threat.  They also support Okoro being a better rebounder and shot blocker.  So it comes down to whether you would rather the offense run through our guards or through the post.  Again, the limited data we have says we're better off running the offense through our guards.

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2 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The limited numbers we have absolutely support French being a better passer and post up threat.  They also support Okoro being a better rebounder and shot blocker.  So it comes down to whether you would rather the offense run through our guards or through the post.  Again, the limited data we have says we're better off running the offense through our guards.

That's if we are comparing 5 games 3 of which were absolute Patsy's for Okoro against French's numbers against everyone. We are also on Jr year Okoro, so lets compare with Jr year French not the Covid season

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2 hours ago, slufanskip said:

That's if we are comparing 5 games 3 of which were absolute Patsy's for Okoro against French's numbers against everyone. We are also on Jr year Okoro, so lets compare with Jr year French not the Covid season

French had a 6'4" rebounding freak playing along side of him his entire career.  French had to battle his own teammate to get the boards. 

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44 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Okoro will get much better at finishing at the rim as the season goes along.  You don’t come right back from not playing and not practicing for a year at an all conference level.  That takes court time.

I agree with this and am not saying Okoro won't end up being better these 2 years than French. However, if he is better this year than Jr year French, we have a very good player. 

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French was better in pure scoring and maybe defense. We ran plays for him, where he would get the ball on the outside and attack. Okoro really is only good at receiving the ball from a pass or a board, and putting it in. However, French shot 33% from FT, and by his senior year, we used him as less of an option. His turnovers when setting up a drive did not help either. We couldn’t afford the wasted possessions. If Okoro continues to shoot decently from the line, he is definitely a good replacement, and it is a wash between them. It is funny that shooting really really really badly from the line can negate so many other positives.

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It seems to me that some of the board have forgotten that Hasahn French was really, really good. 2x all-conference and 2x all-defense. He and Okoro seem to be used differently in the offense, so I have some difficulty comparing them. We're lucky to replace one really good big in French with another really good one in Okoro. 

I have been impressed with Franco so far. Agreed with @brianstl that his finishing is guaranteed to improve, and his upside when it comes to defense and rebounding is nearly impossible to find in the A-10. I listened to a local Memphis radio interview with their assistant Cody Toppert after our game against them. When the hosts asked Toppert how Memphis was going to fix its rebounding issues that popped up against SLU he said "A lot of that is just Francis Okoro being Francis Okoro. There's not much you can do against a guy like that." That's coming from someone whose center is going to be a lottery pick in 7 months. 

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6 hours ago, AnkielBreakers said:

French was better in pure scoring and maybe defense. We ran plays for him, where he would get the ball on the outside and attack. Okoro really is only good at receiving the ball from a pass or a board, and putting it in. However, French shot 33% from FT, and by his senior year, we used him as less of an option. His turnovers when setting up a drive did not help either. We couldn’t afford the wasted possessions. If Okoro continues to shoot decently from the line, he is definitely a good replacement, and it is a wash between them. It is funny that shooting really really really badly from the line can negate so many other positives.

That's for sure! How many good players didn't get a spot just because of bad shooting.

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my question about french is did he improve from his freshman season?   i say no.   still a fabulous player but he developed zero degrees.

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I’d say he did get better through his Jr. year, highlighted by his 21 pt. 24 rebound showing vs. Belmont. He was very good throughout the rest of that season.

The disappointing thing was his Sr. year which started off with him missing the first two games d/t injury, and then covid. He was clearly not the same player following the covid restart.

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

my question about french is did he improve from his freshman season?   i say no.   still a fabulous player but he developed zero degrees.

 

During his junior year, his scoring, rebounding, assists and shotblocking all increased, on a per minute basis, and in total.  The only thing that didn't increase was his shooting percentage.  But I notice when most people mention improvement on this board, it's really a euphemism for shooting percentage.

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french will always be remembered for ............free throws.   hard legacy.  

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1 hour ago, billikenbill said:

I’d say he did get better through his Jr. year, highlighted by his 21 pt. 24 rebound showing vs. Belmont. He was very good throughout the rest of that season.

The disappointing thing was his Sr. year which started off with him missing the first two games d/t injury, and then covid. He was clearly not the same player following the covid restart.

Don’t forget long before the COVID outbreak Has himself had COVID in the Spring of that year.  He was never healthy his Sr. Year.

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11 hours ago, NH said:

It seems to me that some of the board have forgotten that Hasahn French was really, really good. 2x all-conference and 2x all-defense. He and Okoro seem to be used differently in the offense, so I have some difficulty comparing them. We're lucky to replace one really good big in French with another really good one in Okoro. 

I have been impressed with Franco so far. Agreed with @brianstl that his finishing is guaranteed to improve, and his upside when it comes to defense and rebounding is nearly impossible to find in the A-10. I listened to a local Memphis radio interview with their assistant Cody Toppert after our game against them. When the hosts asked Toppert how Memphis was going to fix its rebounding issues that popped up against SLU he said "A lot of that is just Francis Okoro being Francis Okoro. There's not much you can do against a guy like that." That's coming from someone whose center is going to be a lottery pick in 7 months. 

I think we all realize how good French was but we also understand that Okoro has a higher ceiling. I don’t think that Franco is better than French yet, but he certainly has the tools to be better by the end of the year for a few reasons:

1. He’s not a total liability from the free throw line. French was literally the worst free throw shooter I’ve ever seen.

2. He’s 6’9, so he doesn’t have as much trouble matching up with true 7 foot centers (unlike French, a generous 6’7)

3. Already has a knack for rebounding the ball, as shown by his performance against one of the biggest teams in the country.

4. Is just as physically imposing as French and can be a true rim protector.

Yes, Okoro is more limited offensively, but with the way the team is constructed, we don’t need to him to score. Keep in mind that throughout French’s career, we didn’t have the greatest scorers for a multitude of reasons (S2, Gordon, rebuilding from Crews) so he got more shots. With Gibson, TJ, Nesbitt, and even Yuri taking majority of the shots, it’s okay that Okoro isn’t the greatest scorer just yet. As long as he can finish some dunks and putbacks and limit his fouls more, he’ll be good. 

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16 minutes ago, CenHudDude said:

Don’t forget long before the COVID outbreak Has himself had COVID in the Spring of that year.  He was never healthy his Sr. Year.

This is true. We also need to consider that Javonte came into Has’s senior season as the number one option, whereas half the season before he had a limited role. With the amount of scoring Javonte did, it makes sense that Has’s numbers dipped some.

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Has is one of the greatest Billikens of all time.  To knock his FT shooting is like harping on Highmark's defense.  I do agree he was what he was his freshman year and stayed that way through his senior year.  He never got better at FT shooting, and he never developed a 10- to 15-foot game.  He was what he was.  He shoudl be a shoo-in for a spot in our Hall of Fame, both he and Goodwin.  

Francis Okoro is a different player in many aspects.  Comparisons are warranted but the debate will never end.

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7 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

Has is one of the greatest Billikens of all time.  To knock his FT shooting is like harping on Highmark's defense.  I do agree he was what he was his freshman year and stayed that way through his senior year.  He never got better at FT shooting, and he never developed a 10- to 15-foot game.  He was what he was.  He shoudl be a shoo-in for a spot in our Hall of Fame, both he and Goodwin.  

Francis Okoro is a different player in many aspects.  Comparisons are warranted but the debate will never end.

Back to French, I have watched a game he played for his Czech/Slovenian team (I am not clear what country he is at), and he plays very much the same way. He still fails to make FT throws, but physically he just cannot be stopped by that league, he just goes through them. I think French has a great future in foreign league play and may indeed make a lot of money doing so.

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35 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

Has is one of the greatest Billikens of all time.  To knock his FT shooting is like harping on Highmark's defense.  I do agree he was what he was his freshman year and stayed that way through his senior year.  He never got better at FT shooting, and he never developed a 10- to 15-foot game.  He was what he was.  He shoudl be a shoo-in for a spot in our Hall of Fame, both he and Goodwin.  

Francis Okoro is a different player in many aspects.  Comparisons are warranted but the debate will never end.

My take on the Franco v Has debate is Franco’s the better athlete and appears to have more skills. Has was a great player here but kind of a one trick pony, ie a true Bully Baller who would outmuscle his opponent. If he had ever developed that 10-15 foot jumper and improved his FT’s he would have been compared favorably to Bonner. Still haven’t seen Franco take any little jumpers but am hoping he just hasn’t shown us yet. 

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