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Big East expansion coming?


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2 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

While IMO the teams performance under Spoon peaked during the Highmark/Claggett era.  Saying the hype began to fizzle when the Rams arrived just isn’t true.  I can’t find the attendance records now, but I’m fairly certain attendance peaked around 1998.  And was still really good before falling off during the Sodie years.

Technically 95 was our highest average, but the 98 season was ranked higher nationally than 95, with a smaller attendance number.  98 we were 6th in the nation, 99 12th, 00 20th, 01 23rd and 02 we dropped out.

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Those who lived in St L for the Spoon years know better than I, but ,besides winning , Charlie’s down home humor and love of all thing Cardinals, which he expressed often on his KMOX show,  was also a factor in the impressive attendance figures. I used to catch his show occasionally  in Ohio, and he was a fun listen. I recall one night where he and Karaker spent about 90% of the show how his love for the Cards originated when he was growing up in backwoods Arkansas. Charley was a good coach, but a good huckster as well. We never should have lost him. Had he been kept happy he likely would have got the program to X’s level of consistency. 

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16 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Those who lived in St L for the Spoon years know better than I, but ,besides winning , Charlie’s down home humor and love of all thing Cardinals, which he expressed often on his KMOX show,  was also a factor in the impressive attendance figures. I used to catch his show occasionally  in Ohio, and he was a fun listen. I recall one night where he and Karaker spent about 90% of the show how his love for the Cards originated when he was growing up in backwoods Arkansas. Charley was a good coach, but a good huckster as well. We never should have lost him. Had he been kept happy he likely would have got the program to X’s level of consistency. 

Spoonhour was at Jack Buck level of popularity in those days.  I don't think you can use attendance figures during his tenure as proof of anything when it comes to sustaining attendance.  

Dayton has put a competitive product on the floor in a market where there really are no significant competitors.  They have sustained strong attendance figures for decades. They don't need an all-time personality to sell the program, just a competitive product.  Since the Blues aren't going anywhere, we'll never be in that situation.  The bar for sustaining strong attendance in St Louis is higher than it is in Dayton.

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17 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Those who lived in St L for the Spoon years know better than I, but ,besides winning , Charlie’s down home humor and love of all thing Cardinals, which he expressed often on his KMOX show,  was also a factor in the impressive attendance figures. I used to catch his show occasionally  in Ohio, and he was a fun listen. I recall one night where he and Karaker spent about 90% of the show how his love for the Cards originated when he was growing up in backwoods Arkansas. Charley was a good coach, but a good huckster as well. We never should have lost him. Had he been kept happy he likely would have got the program to X’s level of consistency. 

i enjoyed the spoon act as much as anyone.   he was a supreme entertainer off the floor.   but that is exactly what it was.   an act.   when the camera's, microphones and reporter notebooks were not present, he was somewhat a crabby guy actually when not amongst friends imo.   i had a number of bumps with him and he never once expressed much of a desire to talk even for a minute.   

that said, the sob could coach.   except rickma, no other billiken coach in my fandom comes close to what he could develop and win with.   i used to say if he was ahead or even close at halftime he was going to win because he  was a supreme game coach that could adjust like no one else (well except rickma).   

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16 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i enjoyed the spoon act as much as anyone.   he was a supreme entertainer off the floor.   but that is exactly what it was.   an act.   when the camera's, microphones and reporter notebooks were not present, he was somewhat a crabby guy actually when not amongst friends imo.   i had a number of bumps with him and he never once expressed much of a desire to talk even for a minute.   

that said, the sob could coach.   except rickma, no other billiken coach in my fandom comes close to what he could develop and win with.   i used to say if he was ahead or even close at halftime he was going to win because he  was a supreme game coach that could adjust like no one else (well except rickma).   

I'm glad you posted this Roy, because I had the same experience with Spoon.  I have held back on this forever, figuring it was my problem.  Spoon was funnier than heck, his players loved him, yes he could win with lesser talent, but in a close situation, he was not friendly at all.  I remember during one of his seasons he attended the first Billiken Club meeting, and quickly passed that job off to Greg Lackey.  We never saw him again.  I said Hello to him once at his restaurant and he didn't acknowledge I was even there.

He inherited Highmark and Claggett, and got Hughes due to his family situation.  Yeah, he got Love and H here and got a hidden jewel with Donnie Dobbs, but after that, his recruiting wasn't all that great either.  

Maybe it's just you and me Roy!  Nobody likes us.

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Charlie's history is mixed to me.  He inherited Claggs and Hmark from the departing Grawer but he got Dobbs, Waldman, Robinson, and, of course, Hughes.  Even after the great Legend podcast, I am not sure he did much to get Hughes or if it was Derek Thomas and the family situation.  I'd also say hits on the plus side for Spoon included Marque Perry, Justin Love and Jeff Harris as well.  But it my understanding that he became a lazy recruiter late, banking on recommendations from others rather than recruiting trips of his own.  He brought in guys like Donnie Adkins, Eric Jones, Andrew Latimer, Ricky Cranford, Corey Grays, Sekue Barentine, Jeramy Biles, Tyrone Caswell, Drew Diener, Corey Frazier, Troy Robertson, and  Larry Simmons.  He had serviceable hits with Virgil Cobbin, Dave Fergerson, Carl Turner, Ryan Leucthtefeld, Carolos McCauley, Evan Pederson and Jamal Walker.  But to me, Spoon's time here was defined by Grawer's leftovers and one season of Larry Hughes.  

Despite recruiting failures, the man could coach and it seemed we were in every game in 1993-94, 1994-95 and 1997-98.  So Charlie was here seven years and had three years of success.  Factor in the drought the program was in back then, Charlie's rep transcended reality ---- he took us to three NCAAs, a place we had only been to once before ... in 1956-57.  I was born that year.

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We ran into Spoon at the team hotel during breakfast time at the CUSA tournament in Birmingham.  He was all alone, looking forlorn.  I think we had lost by then and were out of it.  We tried to strike up a conversation but he was sullen and silent.  Yes, he had lost and was likely on the way home but he looked worn out and beat.  He resigned some time after that encounter (blame it on us!).  I understand circumstances were what they were but there was no engagement left in the man.  I remember a somewhat similar encounter the year prior whne we lost in the CUSA tournament in Cincinnati.  Only two instances but the man was nothign like the newspapers described.  

So count me in with roy and HP.

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31 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i enjoyed the spoon act as much as anyone.   he was a supreme entertainer off the floor.   but that is exactly what it was.   an act.   when the camera's, microphones and reporter notebooks were not present, he was somewhat a crabby guy actually when not amongst friends imo.   i had a number of bumps with him and he never once expressed much of a desire to talk even for a minute.   

that said, the sob could coach.   except rickma, no other billiken coach in my fandom comes close to what he could develop and win with.   i used to say if he was ahead or even close at halftime he was going to win because he  was a supreme game coach that could adjust like no one else (well except rickma).   

I had the exact opposite experience in 2 different meetings. One was waiting for the Valet after a Billikens end of season banquet, but during that occasion he struck up the conversation and I could barely get away. I saw him again waiting for a table at a restaurant and I struck up the conversation and he was again very engaging until he was seated. 

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The coaching discussion illustrates the point of SLU’s need for a coach that can do as many things as possible, coach, recruit, manage a program, sell, all kinds of things. It doesn’t all have to come from one person. Multiple people on a staff or in an organization can do different things. 

Right now, it’s Ford. He’s clearly turned things back around for SLU. He’s recruiting local players. He understands managing a program and selling. He needs to win at a higher level moving forward to get SLU on other people’s radar outside of SLU, meaning taking a multiple years bubble team to an almost annual NCaA Tourney team. 

Year 6 for Travis, the most of any SLU coach since Grawer. (tied with Spoonhour)

SLU can do a lot of things to try to get into the Big East. One of the things they need to do is win at a higher level. Better than 4th in A-10, NCAA Tourneys etc…

Less obstacles, increased budget, facilities improvements etc…all are good steps. Time to win more consistently  at higher levels. Almost there. Hopefully Ford is the one that can do that. We’ll see. 

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15 minutes ago, courtside said:

The coaching discussion illustrates the point of SLU’s need for a coach that can do as many things as possible, coach, recruit, manage a program, sell, all kinds of things. It doesn’t all have to come from one person. Multiple people on a staff or in an organization can do different things. 

Right now, it’s Ford. He’s clearly turned things back around for SLU. He’s recruiting local players. He understands managing a program and selling. He needs to win at a higher level moving forward to get SLU on other people’s radar outside of SLU, meaning taking a multiple years bubble team to an almost annual NCaA Tourney team. 

Year 6 for Travis, the most of any SLU coach since Grawer. (tied with Spoonhour)

SLU can do a lot of things to try to get into the Big East. One of the things they need to do is win at a higher level. Better than 4th in A-10, NCAA Tourneys etc…

Less obstacles, increased budget, facilities improvements etc…all are good steps. Time to win more consistently  at higher levels. Almost there. Hopefully Ford is the one that can do that. We’ll see. 

Most of any SLU coach since Spoonhour (with 7). 

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26 minutes ago, Compton said:

Most of any SLU coach since Spoonhour (with 7). 

after spoon had retired a friend sat next to him on a flight and they had a great conversation and a good time. that said spoon did not like to recruit and always thought what would the billikens do if they had a really good inside game to go along with clag and highmark. he surely outcoached his opponents

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1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

I'm glad you posted this Roy, because I had the same experience with Spoon.  I have held back on this forever, figuring it was my problem.  Spoon was funnier than heck, his players loved him, yes he could win with lesser talent, but in a close situation, he was not friendly at all.  I remember during one of his seasons he attended the first Billiken Club meeting, and quickly passed that job off to Greg Lackey.  We never saw him again.  I said Hello to him once at his restaurant and he didn't acknowledge I was even there.

He inherited Highmark and Claggett, and got Hughes due to his family situation.  Yeah, he got Love and H here and got a hidden jewel with Donnie Dobbs, but after that, his recruiting wasn't all that great either.  

Maybe it's just you and me Roy!  Nobody likes us.

i could tell a few stories.   i initially was really upset i got treated as such, but quickly decided that if my choice was spoon on the floor or the likes of ekker, i could take the rudeness and enjoy great billiken basketball.   

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6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i could tell a few stories.   i initially was really upset i got treated as such, but quickly decided that if my choice was spoon on the floor or the likes of ekker, i could take the rudeness and enjoy great billiken basketball.   

Absolutely, Roy.

As fellow survivors of the Dark Ages of Billiken Basketball, we know.

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1 hour ago, courtside said:

The coaching discussion illustrates the point of SLU’s need for a coach that can do as many things as possible, coach, recruit, manage a program, sell, all kinds of things. It doesn’t all have to come from one person. Multiple people on a staff or in an organization can do different things. 

Right now, it’s Ford. He’s clearly turned things back around for SLU. He’s recruiting local players. He understands managing a program and selling. He needs to win at a higher level moving forward to get SLU on other people’s radar outside of SLU, meaning taking a multiple years bubble team to an almost annual NCaA Tourney team. 

Year 6 for Travis, the most of any SLU coach since Grawer. (tied with Spoonhour)

SLU can do a lot of things to try to get into the Big East. One of the things they need to do is win at a higher level. Better than 4th in A-10, NCAA Tourneys etc…

Less obstacles, increased budget, facilities improvements etc…all are good steps. Time to win more consistently  at higher levels. Almost there. Hopefully Ford is the one that can do that. We’ll see. 

Given what Travis Ford inherited, I don't count the first year, and to some extent the first two years.

Travis has done a good job as SLU Coach.  He is at Spoon PR level, is the best recruiter we've ever had in the Modern Era, even above Lorenzo Romar (because Zo kept coming in 2nd), and is a better bench coach than advertised coming out of Oklahoma State.  

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

Charlie's history is mixed to me.  He inherited Claggs and Hmark from the departing Grawer but he got Dobbs, Waldman, Robinson, and, of course, Hughes.  Even after the great Legend podcast, I am not sure he did much to get Hughes or if it was Derek Thomas and the family situation.  I'd also say hits on the plus side for Spoon included Marque Perry, Justin Love and Jeff Harris as well.  But it my understanding that he became a lazy recruiter late, banking on recommendations from others rather than recruiting trips of his own.  He brought in guys like Donnie Adkins, Eric Jones, Andrew Latimer, Ricky Cranford, Corey Grays, Sekue Barentine, Jeramy Biles, Tyrone Caswell, Drew Diener, Corey Frazier, Troy Robertson, and  Larry Simmons.  He had serviceable hits with Virgil Cobbin, Dave Fergerson, Carl Turner, Ryan Leucthtefeld, Carolos McCauley, Evan Pederson and Jamal Walker.  But to me, Spoon's time here was defined by Grawer's leftovers and one season of Larry Hughes.  

Despite recruiting failures, the man could coach and it seemed we were in every game in 1993-94, 1994-95 and 1997-98.  So Charlie was here seven years and had three years of success.  Factor in the drought the program was in back then, Charlie's rep transcended reality ---- he took us to three NCAAs, a place we had only been to once before ... in 1956-57.  I was born that year.

totally agree on his lazy recruiting.   my favorite "miss" was greg hardin who he likely never saw till he set foot on campus.   the guy looked more like a charlie gitto cook who sampled the dishes more than a basketball player.   never played a minute.  

cranford is my second favorite miss.   big time buildup was supposed to replace and lessen the sting of hughes leaving after only one year.   that first time he got in the game, it looked like he had never played a minute of organized basketball.  i sat there in disbelief.  

but like i said earlier, he did take those misfits and lessers each season and coached them up and typically had a pretty decent season with improvement.   

i asked him at a billiken club meeting once, "what is the part about coaching you dislike the most?"   without hesitation he said recruiting and launched into descriptions of kissing up to single mothers in the living room and promising to be their fathers for the next four years and how dirty it made him feel.   now this was one of the few times he responded to me in a one on one question with no one else listening and i always wondered if that answer would have been the same in a totally open forum.   

that same night when we were in the open forum with everyone in the room listening and asking questions, i asked him to tell us about what we could expect with Larry Hughes.   keep in mind Spoon was the king of underselling.  for example i remember him telling me marque perry was just a bag of rags waterbug that would be hard to ever teach basketball too.   from day one i thought marque was pretty good and the potential was obvious imo.  by the time he graduated he was something to watch.

anyway, when i asked the hughes questions, he got real quiet and looked down.   obviously he was searching for the right words and for a moment i was thinking oh oh he is going to tell us Larry isnt all that good, blah blah blah.   well he looks up and softly says, "folks, Larry Hughes is without a doubt the best basketball player i will ever coach.   he is going to do things every night that all of us have never seen at Saint Louis University.   I expect by the time he leaves in four years we will all be singing the praises of the greatest billiken in history."  

i was floored.   never had spoon talked about a player to us billiken fans like this.   i went home that night more excited than i had ever been with anticipation off the chart.  

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Well, as I understand it, Rickma was no hail and jolly good fellow either, but he could coach. One of my biggest snubs occurred on a plane ride back to Boston from Chicago, and I got seated next to Bill Russell. Now, it was well known in Boston that Russell was fan unfriendly, no autographs, no small talk, no answers to any hoops related questions. Nothing from Bill. The trip was 2.5 hours, and all I said when I took my seat was, Hey, you're Bill Russell, aren't you? I got an icy stare and not even a nod. And dead silence the rest of the way. I was really glad to get off that plane. It was uncomfortable. I guess my point is these guys don't need to be friendly, yeah, it helps their public image, but the great ones don't really care. They let their records do the talking. It's not like we're gonna be teening it up with these guys every Saturday morning and then drinking beers in the grill room, or inviting them to our kids weddings, so why get upset when they blow you off? Agreed it's rude and a friendly smile or a thanks for being a fan would be great, but I just chalk it up to everyone's different. 

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11 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Given what Travis Ford inherited, I don't count the first year, and to some extent the first two years.

Travis has done a good job as SLU Coach.  He is at Spoon PR level, is the best recruiter we've ever had in the Modern Era, even above Lorenzo Romar (because Zo kept coming in 2nd), and is a better bench coach than advertised coming out of Oklahoma State.  

-nope, while CFord is very good, Charlie was incredible at PR

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Just now, slu72 said:

Well, as I understand it, Rickma was no hail and jolly good fellow either, but he could coach. One of my biggest snubs occurred on a plane ride back to Boston from Chicago, and I got seated next to Bill Russell. Now, it was well known in Boston that Russell was fan unfriendly, no autographs, no small talk, no answers to any hoops related questions. Nothing from Bill. The trip was 2.5 hours, and all I said when I took my seat was, Hey, you're Bill Russell, aren't you? I got an icy stare and not even a nod. And dead silence the rest of the way. I was really glad to get off that plane. It was uncomfortable. I guess my point is these guys don't need to be friendly, yeah, it helps their public image, but the great ones don't really care. They let their records do the talking. It's not like we're gonna be teening it up with these guys every Saturday morning and then drinking beers in the grill room, or inviting them to our kids weddings, so why get upset when they blow you off? Agreed it's rude and a friendly smile or a thanks for being a fan would be great, but I just chalk it up to everyone's different. 

i think i would have kept up until he told me he didnt want to talk.   not often you get a chance to talk to russell who i consider one of the best 5 ever.   

i once stupidly chased oscar robertson when at cincy for the cusa tourney for an autograph.   he politely but obviously a little perturbed by my request asked me to wait outside and he would find me.  

i walked out embarrassed and mentally kicking myself for the request at that scene.   i went outside and stood across the corridor as even though i realized i f'd up, i still wasnt going to risk not getting an autograph and a few seconds of my childhood basketball idol's time.   he came out and looked for me and came across and signed said a few words, i told him he was my childhood idol and apologized, he smiled and thanked me and walked on. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Given what Travis Ford inherited, I don't count the first year, and to some extent the first two years.

Travis has done a good job as SLU Coach.  He is at Spoon PR level, is the best recruiter we've ever had in the Modern Era, even above Lorenzo Romar (because Zo kept coming in 2nd), and is a better bench coach than advertised coming out of Oklahoma State.  

Every new coach, generally speaking, gets 3-5 years to establish a program. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the situation.

Ford was able to turn things around and he was able to make the NCAA Tourney in his 3rd season. He remained solid and consistent with his next two seasons, improving to league top 4 twice, 2 bubble teams landing outside of the bubble. This year's team is projected to be another bubble team, hopefully better. 

If SLU misses NCAA's 2021-2022, and the following year, I would not expect Ford to still be around. If he can make the NCAA Tourney one of the next two seasons, that would get him more years and time to make SLU an almost annual NCAA Tourney team.

If SLU did change coaches in the next few years, that new coach would get the same 3-5 years and so forth. 

Coaches results vary the first few seasons, but at some point, all coaches need to establish an almost annual NCAA Tourney team to keep their job at a place like SLU.

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1 minute ago, Cowboy II said:

-nope, while CFord is very good, Charlie was incredible at PR

i am not sure i agree.   charlie was a good story teller, but like a number of us have detailed PR goes further than in front of the camera's.   and that he was terrible at.   Ford on the other hand has been extremely pleasant in one on one situations.   When i had my 60th birthday, he sent me a handwritten note along with a billiken goodie haul.  

when i had my cancer surgery, at the hospital i got another hand written note wishing me well and a speedy recovery.  

when i got invited to a practice a few years ago so my grandson could meet his first idol, javon bess, ford spent a number of minutes by my side as javon shot baskets with my grandson and made sure all the team met him.   Then travis went over and spent a few minutes with my grandson as well.  

i know that coach ford visited stuen in the hospital.  unless you've been in the hospital, you dont realize how important this is to a scared patient.   it likely meant the world to stuen.  and probably even more to his family.   

i have never heard ford mess up on radio and tv.   i was incredibly impressed with the time and detail he gave 05 and Pistol in their podcast interview.   other than Lisch interview it was the best they've gotten.   

no i think ford is definitely in Spoon's class.   

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Highmark and Claggs were both gone - in their own words - I don't remember where Highmark and Claggs said they were going - different schools.  Spoon had to re-recruit them he and both players said the same.  So to say both players were already here for their sophomore year is just not true.  Now I do agree that Spoon really disliked recruiting.

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