Porter Moser

[thatskablamo]

1 hour ago, slusam said:

A friend of mine son played for him at Illinois State. He was known as a good guy but not a good coach. Some how his contract was never signed so it was easy to let him go. 

 

I’m wondering what the Roy’s of the world would think comparing/contrasting Porter and Stallings. I know there’s some Belleville loyalty to KS. 

[BJK]

42 minutes ago, NH said:

There were definitely some people who were very high on Porter Moser at the time and even more people who were low on Jim Crews at the time. Our recruiting took a nosedive after Porter left and I do think the trajectory of the program looks different if he were able to stick around for another year prior to taking a head coaching job. The timing of him leaving right before Majerus’ health took a turn for the worse was unfortunate.

Porter seems like a really good coach who has that program humming. That said, I think SLU can and will find coaches who are as good for our program as he would’ve been. I don’t think he’s the next Brad Stevens or Chris Beard, but would have him a level below that.

I think we owe most of the recruiting success of that era to Biancardi... even kids that signed after he left were scouted and earmarked by him. He was crucial. 

[Taj79]

Is Loyola the next Butler?  Not too long ago, Butler was in back-to-back title games.  Since then?  Consistent for the most part but not really close.  Probably about the sixth or seventh best program in the Big East (Nova, Uconn, Creighton, Xavier, Seton Hall, maybe St. John's) right now.  Loyola was actually pretty good in the old MCC days with Alfrederick Hughes, Carl Golston and Andre Moore.  If Xavier wasn't beating us Loyola was.  But that was like almost 40 years ago.  

I don't think Moser will leave Loyola unless his wife is on board with it.  How old are his kids now?  She is a Chicagoland lady although Marquette, Indiana and Minnesota aren't too far.  Neither was St. Louis and she wanted home from us.  Who knows.  Archie Miller found life very tough in ol' Bloomington.  The natives are not patient there.

@A10 ref --- I am not forgetting [dead}'s crowning achievement but I agree with @Clock Tower in his assessment that that team ran on its own fumes.  I think what the salient point of COY is is that once he won that, May had no recourse but to hire him full time.  That is the rub there.  I remember the talking heads (Digger Phelps seems stuck in my mind) all screaming and yelling that [dead] deserved the full time hire.  In that regard, May's hands were tied.  A shorter contract?  Nope, [dead] was smart enough and times were such that anything under a four-year deal would be unacceptable.  That's a full cycle of recruits and makes sense.  Except [dead] was dead and gone in terms of the current basketball recruiting landscape and showed his true colors there rather quickly.

I know many an old-timer who disucssed just how bad the [dead] hire was back then.  We had seen it.  From his playing days at Indiana, to his scowling and unfriendly sideline conduct at Evansville, and then to the understanding this he was fired at Army for abusing a cadet.  That is somewhat unfathomable to me.  May did the only thing I saw humanly possible in hiring [dead] ---- even though we knew it was a bad route to go.  You don't hire a dinosaur to drive a Mercedes .... or in our case even a Volkeswagon.  What coach in his right mind would have said "hey, they just fired the national COY.  I want to go to that program."?  In this case, I'd add that situation to the on going belief by some that this program is cursed.  Even our success comes back to bite us in the arse.

I don't disagree with Clock Tower's take in some context but 1) what was May to do, and 2) if you are a businessman or have an agent, as I am sure [dead] did, would you not advocate for the best deal possible?  It's all water under the bridge and the old hindsight item remains intact.  To me, we are a program shaped by numerous bad decisions, bad judgements, bad hires, bad recruits and just plain bad luck.  I really thought we'd break the streak this year but that was not to be.  Next year will be interesting.

Why next year?  My #1 point will be to watch just what Ford does.  This will be his first year without Goodwin and French.  He is no longer tied or beholden to either but he also can't use them as a comfortable crutch.  Some of you believe Okoro is coming in to be better than French.  Some believe Thatch is going to step into the Goodwin role and replace some of that.  While they are decent expectations, I'll watch those roles play out as well.  I am very curious to see how Ford starts over.  Right now, not knowing anything about our roster, I have expectations that a Top Four finish is doable.  The Bonnies return all five but I don't respect them to begin with.  VCU is all Bones --- what if he leaves early?  Dayton is young and talented, but freshmen are freshmen.  Umass is in shambles.  Mason has no coach.  Geedubya has no roster.  The rest are varying stages of bad basketball teams.  I think we are okay.  Now let's see how the transfer portal swings --- both in and out.

[courtside]

 

[brianstl]

16 minutes ago, BJK said:

I think we owe most of the recruiting success of that era to Biancardi... even kids that signed after he left were scouted and earmarked by him. He was crucial. 

Biancardi left in 2008.  I think it is a stretch to give credit for guys like McCall, Evans and Jett to him.  McCall and Evans were definitely Moser recruits.  Those were Chicago area kids.

[dlarry]

10 hours ago, thetorch said:

What good things?

A competent coach gets one of those teams to the elite eight.

Crews was a disaster but I give home some credit for the NC State game.

That was exciting.

Other than that....not much good came from him. 

 

[courtside]

10 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Biancardi left in 2008.  I think it is a stretch to give credit for guys like McCall, Evans and Jett to him.  McCall and Evans were definitely Moser recruits.  Those were Chicago area kids.

For what it's worth I often saw Moser recruiting in gyms, and when he liked a player, he would later bring Majerus. I saw this personally with Mitchell, McCall, Evans etc...Moser did much of SLU's heavy lifting with regards to recruiting. 

[JMM28]

14 minutes ago, dlarry said:

Crews was a disaster but I give home some credit for the NC State game.

That was exciting.

Other than that....not much good came from him. 

 

Giving Crews credit for the NC State game would be like giving credit to someone for quitting smoking after they picked it up that same day. 

[BJK]

21 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Biancardi left in 2008.  I think it is a stretch to give credit for guys like McCall, Evans and Jett to him.  McCall and Evans were definitely Moser recruits.  Those were Chicago area kids.

I guess you are right on those Chicago area guys... I was thinking Reed/kwamain/Conklin 

[billiken_roy]

48 minutes ago, thatskablamo said:

I’m wondering what the Roy’s of the world would think comparing/contrasting Porter and Stallings. I know there’s some Belleville loyalty to KS. 

i am not a stallings fan.   and i am one of the fans that drove to carbondale to watch him play in both the christmas tourney and the state playoff in high school.  but that was stallings the player not the coach.   he turned me off as a coach when he demanded all the program and facility upgrades the year he interviewed for the job.   not that it wasnt needed, but i dont know if he was in a postion to hold a gun to biondi's head and make demands.   didnt work did it.  

[JMM28]

1 hour ago, NH said:

There were definitely some people who were very high on Porter Moser at the time and even more people who were low on Jim Crews at the time. Our recruiting took a nosedive after Porter left and I do think the trajectory of the program looks different if he were able to stick around for another year prior to taking a head coaching job. The timing of him leaving right before Majerus’ health took a turn for the worse was unfortunate.

Porter seems like a really good coach who has that program humming. That said, I think SLU can and will find coaches who are as good for our program as he would’ve been. I don’t think he’s the next Brad Stevens or Chris Beard, but would have him a level below that.

I think the Crews vs. Porter thing is a bad argument, mostly because the timelines don't add up. 

Porter took the Loyola job in 2011. The first NCAA team under Majerus was the 2011-2012 team or the first year without Porter here. (The 2010-2011 team should have been but ya know, John Cook Sucks.) 

If Porter doesn't take the Loyola job, I think it is a foregone conclusion he slides into Majerus's seat that next year as Majerus's health issues were apparently well known that offseason after the Michigan State tourney loss. 

Crews wasn't even the replacement for Porter though on the assistant coach job. Whitesell, who coincidentally had been fired from Loyola, was the replacement for Porter who went to Loyola. 

Crews was hired late in the offseason that year when Alec Jensen took the D-League job in like September or October. 

So in 2010-2011, the staff was Majerus-Porter-Harriman-Jensen. The next season (The only Majerus tournament team) was Majerus-Whitesell-Harriman-Crews. Which then morphed into Crews-Whitesell-Bronson-Platt. Probably never a bigger downgrade across the board than that 2 year swing. 

But without revisionist history, I recall a lot of people not wanting Porter to take over for Majerus. I was one of those, I believe. We would point to the few games where Rick was out that Porter coached. He was like 0-3 or something. I also didn't want Crews though. 

[slufan13]

Things I have definitely said on this board

- Moser should be the coach after Majerus and that if we don't keep him, he will go to at least 1 final four and 2 sweet 16s in his first 10 years at another Jesuit school that would hire him

- Crews would have 2 good, but underacheiving years, and then blow up the program and be fired by 2016 and coach 3rd grade basketball in Indiana while we'll aim for a coach with big conference experience

- Ford would make 1 NCAA appearance in his first 5 years but have some tough circumstances including a once in a century global pandemic

- Goodwin and French will win zero non-A10 postseason games in their careers

- John Manning will never play in the NBA

- Grandy Glaze will be the most successful pornstar in SLU history 

[3star_recruit]

If Porter thought there was a good chance of getting the SLU job, he never would have left for the Loyola job.  But since this is all hypothetical, let's play the game.  Porter is chosen as the head coach after Coach Majerus's untimely passing.  We have a similar run with Majerus's guys running on automatic.  After they graduate, Moser has to recruit and teach the Majerus system to a new crop of players.  Did Porter have a firm grasp of how to teach that system in 2012 or did he need a run up period similar to what occurred at Loyola?  If it's the latter, we get our brains beat in with the next crop of players, similar to Crews, only for a different reason.  The only data points we had for Porter as the lead SLU guy prior to his departure were dismal failures. 

Going somewhere like Loyola where he had the opportunity to experiment and fail without losing his job is the best thing that could have happened to Porter.  I wish more experienced coaches would take similar jobs and stay there once they discover the secret sauce.  College basketball would be the better for it.

[Bay Area Billiken]

2 hours ago, slusam said:

A friend of mine son played for him at Illinois State. He was known as a good guy but not a good coach. Some how his contract was never signed so it was easy to let him go. 

 

Someone from the other side of the War on 74 used to question Porter Moser's bench coaching prowess.  It appears the 4 year apprenticeship he served at SLU under the Maestro, Rick Majerus, did Porter Moser a world of good.  Watching Loyola dismantle #1 Seed, Big Ten Tournament Champion Illinois yesterday was like watching a Basketball clinic.

Are the Loyola Ramblers the Nephew of Majerus, or the Grandsons of Majerus?

[A10Ref]

20 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

Things I have definitely said on this board

- Moser should be the coach after Majerus and that if we don't keep him, he will go to at least 1 final four and 2 sweet 16s in his first 10 years at another Jesuit school that would hire him

- Crews would have 2 good, but underacheiving years, and then blow up the program and be fired by 2016 and coach 3rd grade basketball in Indiana while we'll aim for a coach with big conference experience

- Ford would make 1 NCAA appearance in his first 5 years but have some tough circumstances including a once in a century global pandemic

- Goodwin and French will win zero non-A10 postseason games in their careers

- John Manning will never play in the NBA

- Grandy Glaze will be the most successful pornstar in SLU history 

THIS! out of reactions but two thumbs up... Thank you for the laugh

[NH]

5 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

If Porter thought there was a good chance of getting the SLU job, he never would have left for the Loyola job.  But since this is all hypothetical, let's play the game.  Porter is chosen as the head coach after Coach Majerus's untimely passing.  We have a similar run with Majerus's guys running on automatic.  After they graduate, Moser has to recruit and teach the Majerus system to a new crop of players.  Did Porter have a firm grasp of how to teach that system in 2012 or did he need a run up period similar to what occurred at Loyola?  If it's the latter, we get our brains beat in with the next crop of players, similar to Crews, only for a different reason.  The only data points we had for Porter as the lead SLU guy prior to his departure were dismal failures. 

Going somewhere like Loyola where he had the opportunity to experiment and fail without losing his job is the best thing that could have happened to Porter.  I wish more experienced coaches would take similar jobs and stay there once they discover the secret sauce.  College basketball would be the better for it.

Biggest additional hypothetical question on your already hypothetical scenario in my mind is would Moser have been able to get recruits in 2011-2014 that were better equipped to fill the void for the departing 2014 senior class. I agree that we would probably not have been good in 2014-2015 regardless of who the coach was. But there is also an alternative universe where we’re not so terrible as we were, and the program can avoid the three-year crater that it had.

[JMM28]

1 hour ago, NH said:

Biggest additional hypothetical question on your already hypothetical scenario in my mind is would Moser have been able to get recruits in 2011-2014 that were better equipped to fill the void for the departing 2014 senior class. I agree that we would probably not have been good in 2014-2015 regardless of who the coach was. But there is also an alternative universe where we’re not so terrible as we were, and the program can avoid the three-year crater that it had.

I agree. 

The other part is that, if Porter were here in 2011-2012, the void of the Manning/Glaze/Greek dude and the Carter/Drew classes would have been filled better. Maybe the Carter thing works out better because the guy who actually recruited him is coaching him. That would have led to a better transition and a continued building. 

Crews recruited ok talent after that first Crawford/Agbeko class, but not guys that fit whatever cockamamie system he tried to run. It was the typical team that looked good coming out of the tunnel but whose sum was less than the parts because the parts just didn't fit together. Reynolds, Yarbrough(prick), and 

Porter would have maintained that system, or a modified version, and been a lot more successful. Coming off 2 straight tourneys, Porter would have done better than Crawford/Agbeko/etc.

 

[Billiken Bob]

2 hours ago, brianstl said:

Biancardi left in 2008.  I think it is a stretch to give credit for guys like McCall, Evans and Jett to him.  McCall and Evans were definitely Moser recruits.  Those were Chicago area kids.

Jordair was an Al Jensen recruit. In fact he had to talk Rick into taking him because of his high school grades.  Remember, he had to go the prep school route.

[Littlebill]

3 hours ago, NH said:

Biggest additional hypothetical question on your already hypothetical scenario in my mind is would Moser have been able to get recruits in 2011-2014 that were better equipped to fill the void for the departing 2014 senior class. I agree that we would probably not have been good in 2014-2015 regardless of who the coach was. But there is also an alternative universe where we’re not so terrible as we were, and the program can avoid the three-year crater that it had.

But the underclassmen in the 13 and 14 high school classes could have made those teams better. Unfortunately, the guys they brought in didn't help make the current teams better, and weren't close to good enough to pick up where they left off. Crews failed in doing this more significantly than any college coach has ever failed at doing anything. That's why he was so bad. I'm not sure if there was a less able person in charge of any top-150 program in America at the time.

[cheeseman]

4 hours ago, dlarry said:

Crews was a disaster but I give home some credit for the NC State game.

That was exciting.

Other than that....not much good came from him. 

 

What credit - give the ball to Jett and let him drive each possession.  Great coaching - give me a break.  My guess is Jett told him to sit down and shut up.

[SluSignGuy]

2 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

What credit - give the ball to Jett and let him drive each possession.  Great coaching - give me a break.  My guess is Jett told him to sit down and shut up.

In Crews' defense (can't believe I am defending Crews), in the NC State game, he started fouling earlier than I have ever seen in a game.  And it worked.

To pile on Crews (in the context of Jett), Crews and Jett apparently got into it (I only know from this board) before the Louisville game because Crews was running the players hard during their day off between games.

[Clock_Tower]

13 hours ago, Taj79 said:

 

@A10 ref --- I am not forgetting [dead}'s crowning achievement but I agree with @Clock Tower in his assessment that that team ran on its own fumes.  I think what the salient point of COY is is that once he won that, May had no recourse but to hire him full time.  That is the rub there.  I remember the talking heads (Digger Phelps seems stuck in my mind) all screaming and yelling that [dead] deserved the full time hire.  In that regard, May's hands were tied.  A shorter contract?  Nope, [dead] was smart enough and times were such that anything under a four-year deal would be unacceptable.  That's a full cycle of recruits and makes sense.  Except [dead] was dead and gone in terms of the current basketball recruiting landscape and showed his true colors there rather quickly.

I know many an old-timer who disucssed just how bad the [dead] hire was back then.  We had seen it.  From his playing days at Indiana, to his scowling and unfriendly sideline conduct at Evansville, and then to the understanding this he was fired at Army for abusing a cadet.  That is somewhat unfathomable to me.  May did the only thing I saw humanly possible in hiring [dead] ---- even though we knew it was a bad route to go.  You don't hire a dinosaur to drive a Mercedes .... or in our case even a Volkeswagon.  What coach in his right mind would have said "hey, they just fired the national COY.  I want to go to that program."?  In this case, I'd add that situation to the on going belief by some that this program is cursed.  Even our success comes back to bite us in the arse.

I don't disagree with Clock Tower's take in some context but 1) what was May to do, and 2) if you are a businessman or have an agent, as I am sure [dead] did, would you not advocate for the best deal possible?  It's all water under the bridge and the old hindsight item remains intact.  To me, we are a program shaped by numerous bad decisions, bad judgements, bad hires, bad recruits and just plain bad luck.  I really thought we'd break the streak this year but that was not to be.  Next year will be interesting.

 

Taj

You are correct.   Once Jim Crews won National Coach of the Year, AD May and SLU were stuck and could do nothing but hire Jim Crews, pay him "market price" and a full term as you mention.  And if you recall, Fr. Biondi apparently let the contract to hire Jim Crews collect dust sitting on his desk and delayed in signing it -- unsure if he really went out of town or was just throwing another Fr. Biondi fit to remind everyone that he was still in charge on campus.  And then there was concern that Fr. Biondi's delay in signing the contract would allow the National Coach of the Year to take his talents elsewhere... and then finally... a collective relief when the great Jim Crews did not leave but signed with SLU for 4 years.   Laissez les bon temps rouler!!

Now, if you will agree to the following three (3) premises, I can explain how AD May could/should have handled this situation.   Can we agree that 1.  Chris May, as typical of most good AD's, had a feel for how the players and other coaches/staff felt about the coaches on the program's only revenue sport -- namely what they thought of Crews and how Crews related with them/commanded their respect.   2.  Chris May was aware of Jim Crew's reputation, and track record, as a coach, including why he was terminated at Army for assaulting a player.  3.  Chris May is not an idiot and capable of making a rational decision.   

Now, it took us MBMs a year or more to discover how the guys hated him, ignored him and coached themselves.   How did Chris May not see this or know this?  I believe Chris May knew this.   I also believe Chris May had to investigate Jim Crews just to hire him as RM's assistant coach due to his assault of a player.  Universities will look the other way on many issues... but not upon the physical or verbal treatment of a student athlete, and SLU is no different.  Sure, there are two (2) sides to every story, not all accusations are true, allegations and "facts" can be exagerated and everyone can have a bad day or an isolated bad moment, but Crew's age, demeanor, style and philosophy of coaching is so 1970s and 1980s, he had not had success in over a decade and at Evansville.  This had to be a red flag just to hire him as an assistant coach.   And finally, I don't personally know Chris May well, am sure he is a nice guy, passionate, etc. and not an absolute idiot.  If so, we all knew our team was loaded, stacked, an NCAA team and that they would win as long as they stayed together and the coach got out of their way.  BRoy told us his grandmother could win with RM's team, most on this Board agreed.   Did AD May think otherwise?  No, AD May had to know the team would win and yet he also had to know that Crews was not the right man for the job and also had to know that this team would win, and if it won, that there would be pressure to hire this winning interim coach. So what did Chris May do?  Not believe we would win?  No, Chris May may be alot of things - but is not an idiot.  So why did May not take early action before the wins piled up?   Get ahead of the decision, set the tone, leak information as to the new requirements of the job:  young, charismatic, recent success as a head coach, etc. to control it rather than be controlled by it?   No, Chris May did nothing, no leadership, no action, waited until the decision - even the one he had to know was the wrong one - would be made for him.  That conduct alone is sufficient to have let Chris May go.

[majerus mojo]

@Clock_Tower is on a heater 

[billiken_roy]

clock, rickma got pretty much whatever he wanted when here.   biondi may have fought with him, but i dont think he was denied.  so what would be the point of "investigating" him?

[slu72]

My memory may be faulty, but I seem to recall Porter's wife wanted him to get as far away from Majerus as quickly as possible. There was something about Rick she didn't like. Not hard to imagine, as RM was never going to win any  popularity contests. So, even if he was guaranteed the job when RM left, I'm not sure he would have turned down the Loyola job.