Retire #0

[billiken_roy]

3 minutes ago, almaman said:

indeed, seems we'd have no room for more retired #'s if we had 30 players in our modern  history more deserving than JG  we'd have  some NCAA banners taking up all the roof space in auditorium. 

the bigger reason we dont have ncaa banners isnt the young men wearing a unform but the guy deciding who is wearing a billiken uniform.   saint louis university isnt exactly a hall of fame mecca of coaching legends.   

[BilliesBy40]

3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

yeah we have wasted a lot of potential over the years.    the truth though is that having a jordan goodwin alone doesnt get you to the ncaa tourney.  heck having an anthony bonner with douglas and gray couldnt knock xavier down the needed peg to get us an ncaa bid.  and arguably bonner is the greatest billiken ever.    look at the depth on this team and we are likely on the outside begging for help to get in with less than a month to go.   

Fair points. My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I do believe you're underrating Goodwin's all-around game compared to other players in the program's history.

[billiken_roy]

im the biggest goodwin fan in the world.   i was touting getting jordan goodwin before most of you knew he was alive.   and yes, he is a hall of fame billiken that should be remembered forever.   but we are talking about a super elite group that gets their uniform in the rafter.   i think some of you are being caught up in the moment and either arent old enough to remember the likes of some of the previous greats or just drunk with the moment when goodwin has had one of the best games of his life.

[NoCoBillsFan]

36 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i agree with the influence and effect that jordan goodwin had on saint louis university basketball.   however i agree with the standard that saint louis university has used in deciding the few uniform numbers that hang from the rafter and have been retired.  it has to be special.   and while goodwin has been excellent, there have probably been 0ver 30 other billikens in history that have been as excellent or even better.   nope.  "0" should remain a possible number for future billikens.

I see what you’re getting at, but there’s no way there’s 30+ players at the same level or better than Goodwin. He’s at least top 10, and to most of us on the board probably top 5

[BilliesBy40]

2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

im the biggest goodwin fan in the world.   i was touting getting jordan goodwin before most of you knew he was alive.   and yes, he is a hall of fame billiken that should be remembered forever.   but we are talking about a super elite group that gets their uniform in the rafter.   i think some of you are being caught up in the moment and either arent old enough to remember the likes of some of the previous greats or just drunk with the moment when goodwin has had one of the best games of his life.

The bolded part is exactly why Goodwin is so great. Last night was a pretty average performance for him, yet you labeled it as one of the best games of his life. A near triple-double, yes, but he was only 3-14 from the field.

[billiken_roy]

1 minute ago, BilliesBy40 said:

The bolded part is exactly why Goodwin is so great. Last night was a pretty average performance for him, yet you labeled it as one of the best games of his life. A near triple-double, yes, but he was only 3-14 from the field.

good point.   and after reading pistol's statistical update, my "30" is likely too high.   but even if he is top 10 ever, he isnt a rafter guy imo.   again, the names in the rafters is intentionally a rare occurance.  

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, NoCoBillsFan said:

This is a fair point but I think that JGood is special. He may very well be the most important recruit the Billikens have had since McCauley because of the role he has played in turning this program around. Think about it, we were bottom feeders of the A10 the three years before he came along. We were in the same tier as Fordham and GW. Yet once he was here, he was the catalyst of this team becoming a top team in the A10 again. And I think that’s worthy of having his Jersey retired.

 

52 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i agree with the influence and effect that jordan goodwin had on saint louis university basketball.   however i agree with the standard that saint louis university has used in deciding the few uniform numbers that hang from the rafter and have been retired.  it has to be special.   and while goodwin has been excellent, there have probably been 0ver 30 other billikens in history that have been as excellent or even better.   nope.  "0" should remain a possible number for future billikens.

I am in total agreement about the importance of Goodwin. 

However, prior to him even being born, two players plus one coach that for me saved the program from dissolving, or going to the College Level, were Douglass, Gray and Coach Grawer.  Probably need to add Burden to that group.  After Ekker's attempt to torpedo the program, these three plus Coach G saved the program.  I go back to the last Ekker season, and it was beyond bleak at Kiel.  So if we are hanging up program savers, these guys need to go up along with Goodwin.

But I am with Billiken Roy in keeping the rafters for the best of the best.  (The Baseball Hall of Fame to me is now the Baseball Hall of Pretty Good Ball Players.  Let's not go there at Chaifetz.) And no matter what the future brings, for me you don't retire anyone's jersey until they have put their shoes away at the end of their career.

Good discussion.

[RUBillsFan]

27 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

good point.   and after reading pistol's statistical update, my "30" is likely too high.   but even if he is top 10 ever, he isnt a rafter guy imo.   again, the names in the rafters is intentionally a rare occurance.  

 

22 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

 

I am in total agreement about the importance of Goodwin. 

However, prior to him even being born, two players plus one coach that for me saved the program from dissolving, or going to the College Level, were Douglass, Gray and Coach Grawer.  Probably need to add Burden to that group.  After Ekker's attempt to torpedo the program, these three plus Coach G saved the program.  I go back to the last Ekker season, and it was beyond bleak at Kiel.  So if we are hanging up program savers, these guys need to go up along with Goodwin.

But I am with Billiken Roy in keeping the rafters for the best of the best.  (The Baseball Hall of Fame to me is now the Baseball Hall of Pretty Good Ball Players.  Let's not go there at Chaifetz.) And no matter what the future brings, for me you don't retire anyone's jersey until they have put their shoes away at the end of their career.

Good discussion.

I agree that names in the rafters should be "rare", how how rare is the question.  We currently have 4 players honored for 106 years of history.  That means on average it takes over a quarter century before we have anyone worth honoring.  That type of exclusivity is nuts IMO.  The Billiken program generally does poor job or honoring it's history IMO especially when it comes to visual reminders on display in / around the arena.

[slufanskip]

I'm sorry but JGood is easily a top 10 Billiken of all time and imo #1 that I've seen with the Caveat I didn't see Bonner except the last couple of games of his Sr year or anyone before him. I can't say it any better than this 

Career leaders 

12th in scoring 17pts out of 11th place. 83 out of 9th place in scoring

4th place in rebounding 

6th in assists should hit 5th with 10 more 

1st in steals 

From Scoops with Danny Mac

But it’s hard to exactly place J-Good amongst his peers in the annals of Billiken history. Goodwin has endured a career in midtown that is far from typical and has truly only had one full season of college basketball played. With two Covid shortened season and one year where he was suspended due to a title XI investigation that he was ultimately deemed innocent in; Goodwin may go down as one of the greatest four-year Billikens players to play as few games as he di

And yet still, Goodwin ranks statistically as one of the most complete players in school history. With an extended conference tournament or NCAA tournament run, Jordan Goodwin, aka Mr. Double-Double, could end up being a top 10 scorer in school history, fourth in rebounding, top 5 in assists, the career leader in steals, and top 10 in minutes played, all while not coming close to cracking the top 10 in terms of games played.

No one else did it ALL as well as JGood. We finished 11th in the A10 the year before he got here. We are now unhappy outside the top 25. No we don't have any tourney wins and only 1 appearance so far but that's not his fault and lets not act like any player has some outrageous number of tourney wins. Heck it's been 70 years since we got past the round of 32

 

 

[Cowboy]

-I started a thread months ago about this, yes, 0 should be hanging from the rafters AND no future Billiken should wear that number

[brianstl]

While I don't think there has been 30 better college basketball players that have graduated from SLU, I don't think Goodwin to this point should have his number retired. The only jerseys hanging in the rafters belong to a NPOY, two guys that made All-American teams and the guy that holds the career record for points and rebounds.  There is an All-American that doesn't have a jersey hanging in the rafters in Ray Steiner.  Goodwin is one of the three best college players to put a Billiken jersey on in my fandom, but sadly to this point it doesn't belong in the rafters.

[NH]

I would consider Goodwin more of a top 10 Billiken all time. He’s certainly above the tier of Lisch, Mitchell, etc. I would also put him above Evans and Jett tier. I don’t think he’s in the Claggett/Bonner stratosphere however.

They should hang Claggett’s jersey IMO.

[jonny karate]

Maybe they need a banner that list greatest billikens ever. 1 banner with all names. After all there is one that acknowledges the nit appearances. You have the ncaas then you got the nits....

[NoCoBillsFan]

I get the idea of having a small club of retired jerseys and I agree with it to an extent. We haven’t been as an illustrious program over the years to warrant 10-15 jerseys retired. However, I think we could expand it a bit. I think at the very least Claggett should be added with some consideration given to JGood. 

[NoCoBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, NH said:

I would consider Goodwin more of a top 10 Billiken all time. He’s certainly above the tier of Lisch, Mitchell, etc. I would also put him above Evans and Jett tier. I don’t think he’s in the Claggett/Bonner stratosphere however.

They should hang Claggett’s jersey IMO.

Who would be your top 5 all time? I’d say top 5 or so should have their jerseys in the rafters
 

 

[slufan13]

I've never been a big believer in retired numbers/jerseys in any sport but especially not college sports. I prefer the super exclusive company if I had to pick one though. 

[billikenfan05]

The only other number actually retired at SLU is the Number 20 and it’s actually retired by both Men’s Soccer(Brian McBride) and Volleyball(Megan Boken) 

[Pistol]

6 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I've never been a big believer in retired numbers/jerseys in any sport but especially not college sports. I prefer the super exclusive company if I had to pick one though. 

I tend to feel the same way. I'm more generous about Halls of Fame - if I were a baseball voter, I'd probably max out my 10 each year - but there's just something about taking numbers out of commission that I don't like. I'm also pretty sure the jerseys are retired and not the numbers, except for Easy Ed's 50. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

In SLU's case, those are the All-Americans who weren't honorable mention. That seems like an important distinction. This is also a program that has not made a Sweet Sixteen in the modern era. Maybe we should actually do something in the postseason before making exceptions.

Goodwin is a borderline top-ten all-time SLU player in my book. As time goes on, he may look even better in historical context. (And his career isn't over.) There's no shame in being an all-time great and Billiken HOFer.

[cgeldmacher]

There are three levels to consider here: 1) retiring a number, 2) hanging an unnumbered jersey in the rafters, 3) putting someone in the Billiken Hall of Fame.  The problem with retiring a bunch of numbers is that basketball doesn't have 100 numbers available like other sports.  It only has 0-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45, and 50-55.  This means that there are only 36 numbers available to players.  I would be very hesitant to retire any more numbers and restrict some number that an important recruit might want.

I think that it is a no brainer that Goodwin gets into the Billiken Hall of Fame.  However, there may be a traditional waiting period.  It is better to bring him back in so many years for a whole separate ceremony rather than do it now.

The questions becomes, do you put his jersey in the rafter.  That's a tough call.  I think that this sort of decision should be made later and not now.  Let's see how history remembers him and this era.  I also think that if he goes up in the rafters, then we have to put several others up there as well.

[cgeldmacher]

BTW, here are the Billiken Men's Basketball HOF'ers

MEN’S BASKETBALL

Harold Alcorn (inducted in 1994)

Anthony Bonner (inducted in 1996)

Dick Boushka (inducted in 1976)

Vernon Bradburn (inducted in 2002)

William Bradburn (inducted in 2002)

George Burkel (inducted in 1997)

Cal Burnett (inducted in 1994)^

David Burns (inducted in 1999)

Erwin Claggett (inducted in 2001)

Bob Cochran (inducted in 1976)*

Dennis Cochran (inducted in 1995)*

Bob Cole (inducted in 2000)

Charley Dirksen (inducted in 1976)

Jim Dix (inducted in 1995)*

Donnie Dobbs (inducted in 2004)

Monroe Douglass (inducted in 1995)

Bob Ferry (inducted in 1994)

Gerry Garrison (inducted in 2000)

Jack Joseph Genetti (inducted in 1994)*

Roland Gray (inducted in 1995)

Jeff Harris (inducted in 2003)

Scott Highmark (inducted in 2001)

Larry Hughes (inducted in 2004)

Jim Irving (inducted in 1997)

Jack Joyce (inducted in 1976)*

Tom Kieffer (inducted in 1997)

Jerry Koch (inducted in 1994)

Lou Lehman (inducted in 1994)

Tommie Liddell III (inducted in 2017)

Kevin Lisch (inducted in 2015)

Justin Love (inducted in 2009)

Dave Luechtefeld (inducted in 1997)^

Ed Macauley (inducted in 1976)

Glen Mankowski (inducted in 1994)

Carlos Martinez (inducted in 2003)

Pete McCaffrey (inducted in 1994)

Dr. Edward J. McCormick (inducted in 1996)^

Lewis McKinney (inducted in 1997)

Jim McLaughlin (inducted in 1994)

Dan Miller (inducted in 1994)

Jack Mimlitz (inducted in 1994)

Eugene Moore (inducted in 1995)

Sid Mudd (inducted in 1976)

Rich Niemann (inducted in 1995)

Bob Nordmann (inducted in 2005)

Ken “Barney” Oldfield (inducted in 2000)

Barry Orms (inducted in 2002)

Joe Ossola (inducted in 1995)*

Rich Parks (inducted in 1994)

Marque Perry (inducted in 2009)

Hank Raymonds (inducted in 1976)

Donnell Reid (inducted in 1994)^

Harry Rogers (inducted in 1994)

Marv Schatzman (inducted in 1995)*

Bob Schmidt (inducted in 1995)

Al Serkin (inducted in 2001)

Grady Smith (inducted in 1995)

Ray Sonnenberg (inducted in 1994)^

Tom Stanton (inducted in 1976)

Ray Steiner (inducted in 1995)

Ham Strong (inducted in 1976)

Joe Todd (inducted in 1998)

H Waldman (inducted in 2001)

John Waller, Jr. (inducted in 1999)*^

D.C. Wilcutt (inducted in 1995)

Joe Wiley (inducted in 1994)

[Slufan10]

How are Jett and Evans not in the hall of fame?

 

[slufanskip]

I would agree with retiring numbers. However, SLU does such a horrible job at promoting their history. No reason a jersey can't hang from the rafters without retiring the number. 

Sorry I love Claggs but right now I get to pick a career knowing the end results I take JGood over Claggs. Claggs will end up a bit over 4ppg more, but JGood wins assists, steals, and dominates rebounding. 

[cgeldmacher]

Both Spoonhaur and Majerus would have LOVED JGood on any of their teams.

[RUBillsFan]

FYI anyone can nominate someone for the Billikens Hall of Fame.  Here is a link to the submission form: https://slubillikens.com/sb_output.aspx?form=4

The Saint Louis University Billiken Hall of Fame is the biennial premier event of the department of athletics. It has been established to honor the members of past athletic teams who have excelled in intercollegiate athletics at the University, or gained national recognition in athletics following graduation or years of eligibility. In addition, this Hall of Fame provides special recognition opportunities for non-athletes who have contributed significantly to the success of the Saint Louis University athletics program. Recognition ceremonies for inductees will be held at a Hall of Fame Banquet in early 2021. The date of the event is established after receiving confirmation of our sport schedules in late summer. The deadline for nominations is Sept. 15 for induction the following January/February. All nominations are confidential. Nominators may send addition materials to [email protected] or The Billiken Club, 3330 Laclede Ave., St. Louis, Missouri 63103.

[RUBillsFan]

30 minutes ago, Slufan10 said:

How are Jett and Evans not in the hall of fame?

 

I think this is just an issue of it not being a long enough time since their playing careers ended.  Although I don't know if there is an official # of years that must have lapsed.

Lisch & Liddell played from 2005-06 season to 2008-09 season for example and were inducted in 2015 and 2017 respectively.

Jett & Evans played from 2010-11 season to 2013-14 season.  If they were on the same timeline as Lisch, they'd have been inducted in 2020.  However, I don't even know if SLU had HOF inductions in 2020 because of COVID.  I'd imagine they'll get in soon.