Were all of us (and the AP) fooled?

[mrjoelabs]

So the COVID pause hurt. There is no doubt. BUT I wonder if we were seeing a mirage with this team.  Honestly, we haven't played "slu defense" all season other than for stretches of the NC State game.  Let's look at our only 2 wins of any value.  LSU is turning out to be a middling SEC team.  And they have one of the WORST defenses in the country. We beat them because Perkins went nuts and we simply outscored them.   NC State is a middling or worse ACC team. We beat them because they were short handed and coming off COVID and not that good anyway.

So other than that...who have we beaten?  Indiana State?  Basically, no one.  So perhaps this team was overrated in the first place. 

Ford has also done some of his worst coaching with the rotations since we came back. It's like he is searching, Maybe he is.  And the hero ball from French and Goodwin is killing us. 

Anyway, not trying to be negative, but I think this makes valid points. Were we ever really that good? At this point, LSU and NC State are probably out of the tourney, and our only "good loss" Minnesota is not as good anymore and they may be sitting home.. So we could end up with no wins vs NCAA tourney teams.

And all 3 of our losses were about poor defense more than anything else.  And if LSU doesn't have an even worse defense, we lost to them too. 

 

 

[TJHawk]

No they were great early on.  

[SLU_Nick]

11 hours ago, TJHawk said:

No they were great early on.  

This.  We were absolutely hammering teams.  In anyone wants a blueprint of hope, Go look at the trajectory of Clemson's season.  In November/December they had double digit wins against Ranked Purdue, Maryland, #10 Alabama, #20 Florida St, Miami and NC St.  They were 4-1 in ACC play with big non-conference wins against P5 teams.  Then they pause for 2 weeks.  

Next games are - 35 point loss to UVA, 18 point loss to GA Tech (!), and a 19 point loss to FSU.  They grinded out a W against louisville playing in the 50s and then Duke ran them off the court.  They just looked like their old selves with a convincing win at UNC.   Maybe they are trending back normal or not, but its a tale of 2 different seasons for them and they were off 2 weeks.  

We were off A MONTH.  We look tired, slow, rusty, all of it in 2 games against mediocre opponents.   I have no doubt that Richmond blows our doors off if we play that game.  

For me it is not a time to assign blame or be super angry.  I am just numb and sad.  (Dolphin emoji)

[NextYearBill]

[AnkielBreakers]

There could be something to this. For example, I wondered how Linssen would fair once we hit the steady A10 beat, with athletic bigs. I wondered if Jimerson’s defense against Minnesota would be a problem with the average A10 team. Both were a problem last night.
 

But I think they look worse because the entire team is struggling. For example, the team is not working to support Jimerson, or avoiding a switch on defense that the other team is working us into. We are just playing sloppy, slow, and maybe tired.

[brianstl]

37 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

There could be something to this. For example, I wondered how Linssen would fair once we hit the steady A10 beat, with athletic bigs. I wondered if Jimerson’s defense against Minnesota would be a problem with the average A10 team. Both were a problem last night.
 

But I think they look worse because the entire team is struggling. For example, the team is not working to support Jimerson, or avoiding a switch on defense that the other team is working us into. We are just playing sloppy, slow, and maybe tired.

I don't know, according to the advance metrics over at T Rank both have actually been better across most metrics in their time on the court in our two conference games than before.  Jimerson has actually improved defensively according defensive box plus/minus in conference.

[AnkielBreakers]

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

I don't know, according to the advance metrics over at T Rank both have actually been better across most metrics in their time on the court in our two conference games than before.  Jimerson has actually improved defensively according defensive box plus/minus in conference.

Well, never mind then. Also, I meant to say that Jimerson played well on defense in the second half.

[brianstl]

4 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Well, never mind then. Also, I meant to say that Jimerson played well on defense in the second half.

His was pretty darn good all around in that second half last night.  

[brianstl]

The BPM number for Goodwin through two conference games is absolutely horrible at -7.5.  

[brianstl]

Shaft needs to play a lot more.

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?p=Fred+Thatch+Jr.&year=2021&t=Saint+Louis

[slu72]

The Clemson comparison is pretty interesting. Problem is our break was twice as long. We've got to win out for an at large due to the reduced schedule. These guys, if they're not hurting, need a wakeup call. At the rate we're going if they even have a tourney, we might not make the cut. I think what we saw the first 8 was the real deal, but I'm worried that what we're seeing now may be the CURRENT real deal. 

Where's TJ? If energy is lacking he's normally a guy that can bring some. 

[slufanskip]

3 hours ago, brianstl said:

Shaft needs to play a lot more.

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?p=Fred+Thatch+Jr.&year=2021&t=Saint+Louis

Where would you get him extra minutes? 

[dlarry]

24 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Where would you get him extra minutes? 

I don’t think the minutes come from the same person each game.

He should be taking minutes from guys who aren’t playing well. Last night he should have been taking Goodwin’s minutes. 
Some games he should be taking Jimerson’s minutes and other games Perkins.

He can also take some of Jacobs minutes if he is struggling.

If everyone is playing great take a few minutes from each. 

There are plenty of ways to get him in the game.

[slufanskip]

Good or bad, I never take JGood or Yuri's minutes away unless it's a foul issue. JGood's my horse and I'm riding him into battle. Yuri's the engine and he stays. Probably Perkins also. How many times has he looked lost for a half then go for 19 in the 2nd half. 

I'm probably the minority here but I'm riding those 3 and probably Has for 30-35 mpg good or bad. 

[willie]

The only fear I had about this season was how could Ford manage how to spread limited minutes among so many players. In my mind he hasn’t figured it out and maybe can’t. Jacobs was on a run but got subbed because it was time to go back to a starter. The big 3 earned their minutes but if they play 30 + what’s left? A lot of us would like to see TJ play but for who. Even if he gets off the bench a minute or 2 doesn’t help anybody. I don’t have an answer but I guess I would like to see the starters minutes reduced and the bench given more. 

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

Where would you get him extra minutes? 

Right now I would take them from Goodwin.

[willie]

14 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Good or bad, I never take JGood or Yuri's minutes away unless it's a foul issue. JGood's my horse and I'm riding him into battle. Yuri's the engine and he stays. Probably Perkins also. How many times has he looked lost for a half then go for 19 in the 2nd half. 

I'm probably the minority here but I'm riding those 3 and probably Has for 30-35 mpg good or bad. 

Part of me wants to agree with you but for the good of the whole , minutes have to come from somewhere, and others need to play or they will leave. 

[NH]

I’m not a huge fan of how we’ve been using Thatch defensively. It feels like his mandate has been to aggressively trap, get steals, get deflections, etc., which he’s certainly capable of doing. But he picks up a ton of fouls and I honestly think he’s more effective just taking out the opposing teams best guard as opposed to being a disruptive trapping force. 
 

Overall, I think our defense has been a little too aggressive. I wish we’d trust our ability to defend for 30 seconds a little more and not force the issue jumping passing lanes and/or taking hand check fouls because our guards are being so aggressive.

[willie]

5 minutes ago, NH said:

I’m not a huge fan of how we’ve been using Thatch defensively. It feels like his mandate has been to aggressively trap, get steals, get deflections, etc., which he’s certainly capable of doing. But he picks up a ton of fouls and I honestly think he’s more effective just taking out the opposing teams best guard as opposed to being a disruptive trapping force. 
 

Overall, I think our defense has been a little too aggressive. I wish we’d trust our ability to defend for 30 seconds a little more and not force the issue jumping passing lanes and/or taking hand check fouls because our guards are being so aggressive.

I think there is some truth to this. We give up way too many open 3’s . By trapping it allows someone to be open if they beat the trap. The only way inferior teams can beat us is if they hit a bunch of 3’s . We do a bad job of guarding the line and too much time in the paint. 

[mrjoelabs]

Good points from all. However no one addressed what I think is the biggest point. LSU and NC state are not what we thought they were in 2020 in 2021.  And LSU does have one of the worst defenses in the country. Thats how Perkins went hog wild.

  So, who have we really beaten?   At this point I think the Bonnies might be better than either of those 2 Power 5 teams.

[lquarles]

21 hours ago, mrjoelabs said:

So the COVID pause hurt. There is no doubt. BUT I wonder if we were seeing a mirage with this team.  Honestly, we haven't played "slu defense" all season other than for stretches of the NC State game.  Let's look at our only 2 wins of any value.  LSU is turning out to be a middling SEC team.  And they have one of the WORST defenses in the country. We beat them because Perkins went nuts and we simply outscored them.   NC State is a middling or worse ACC team. We beat them because they were short handed and coming off COVID and not that good anyway.

So other than that...who have we beaten?  Indiana State?  Basically, no one.  So perhaps this team was overrated in the first place. 

Ford has also done some of his worst coaching with the rotations since we came back. It's like he is searching, Maybe he is.  And the hero ball from French and Goodwin is killing us. 

Anyway, not trying to be negative, but I think this makes valid points. Were we ever really that good? At this point, LSU and NC State are probably out of the tourney, and our only "good loss" Minnesota is not as good anymore and they may be sitting home.. So we could end up with no wins vs NCAA tourney teams.

And all 3 of our losses were about poor defense more than anything else.  And if LSU doesn't have an even worse defense, we lost to them too. 

 

 

From the outside world, great post. You weren't playing good defense before the COVID pause.

Giving up 90 to Minnesota should've been the early red flag to anyone with eyes, but folks wanted to believe Minnesota was so good.

LSU gave up 99 to Vandy and Arkansas last season, and with Will Wade's personality, and the fact he's never played organized basketball, he's never going to get kids to play consistently tough defense. This LSU team is much worse than last season's.

Travis Ford is almost another Wade. Regardless of if COVID had hit or not, you were going to struggle in the A10, because who really wants to play consistent defense for him? And he's not a good in-game coach. 

[CBFan]

To bad there is no selection for bad thread.

You should be proud the VCU troll gave you a good post.

When the Richmond game was postponed you said;
“You know though it seems like at this point no matter what we are just hosed. And the best shot in generations (maybe ever) at a deep run will be wasted because SLU's administration is completely hapless.  Who knows if we even play another game.”

 

[kcbill]

In both conference losses we have seen two opponents go unconscious. Everything they threw in the air went in. We have seen it before in seasons past. If we are playing our best we overcome it. We are not playing well post COVID and have been unable to overcome it. 

[slufanskip]

15 hours ago, brianstl said:

Right now I would take them from Goodwin.

We just disagree. 

[brianstl]

2 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

We just disagree. 

I am not talking a massive reduction in Goodwin's minutes. I am talking about two or three minutes a game total until Goodwin is back to form.  You can't have your best player since you returned spending more than half the game on the bench.