Jump to content
Billikens.com Message Board

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

I have never agreed with the "stay fresh" reason to sit a player more.  I guarantee you the players get more tired from a full practice than a game.  And they have more full practices than games in a year.  These players are in the best shape of their lives.  The best players should play as long as they are the best players on the floor.  If they slow down needing a break.  Fine sit for a minute, get a drink then if recovered get back in the game.  

Other than fouls or injury play the best till they are fatigued. 

That all said, yes we seem to have more quality depth than at any time in decades.  So use it.  Demand all out all the time.  Push the pace on both ends of the floor and push for the need to sub.  If we don't do that this year, imo the team strategy is  wrong.  But if we do, the minutes will take care of themselves.

HF can be limited a bit by doing the offense/defense switch out end of both halves to avoid horrid FT results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m agreed if they NEED to play 35 to 40 mpg to put us in the best position to get a W than play them. I just don’t see that happening much with this team. Plus, there are going to be games where the matchups and opponents game plans will dictate who gets minutes, eg if team’s pack the inside you can bet Jimerson will be inserted. I like B’roy’s idea of pushing the tempo with our strong bench. You want to beat Richmond, wear them down with bringing in fresh players. I think our second 5 could finish 7 th in the A10. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Reinert310 said:

Just because they’re in the best shape of their lives doesn’t mean they don’t get tired. Or in the cases of Yuri and JGood last year, have lingering injuries that they were able to play through, but might’ve effected their overall performance. My whole point is that we have the depth and talent this year that we don’t need to push minutes on our best players simply for the sake of giving them more minutes. We finally have guys who can help pick up the slack. We’re still gonna win a lot of games even if JGood and Yuri and Has end up averaging 29 minutes a game instead of 32.

If their playing skills that moment you say they are tired can be outplayed by someone  on the bench, I said they should come out.  Then they recover as soon as possible and you put them back in.  To regain the superior floor lineup.  But I'd never take them out before they are fatigued, injured, foul trouble or just not playing up to normal levels 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

If their playing skills that moment you say they are tired can be outplayed by someone  on the bench, I said they should come out.  Then they recover as soon as possible and you put them back in.  To regain the superior floor lineup.  But I'd never take them out before they are fatigued, injured, foul trouble or just not playing up to normal levels 

This is kind of a funny conversation, isn't it.  Mr. Goodwin has averaged 34.5 mpg over three years.  I don't recall him once, being 'wasted' where his performance declined.  I don't recall any of his three seasons where he couldn't have played 2, 3, 4 or 6 extra games in the NCAA tourney.  The team leader will be on the floor.  Coach Ford will be focused on maximizing this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

This is kind of a funny conversation, isn't it.  Mr. Goodwin has averaged 34.5 mpg over three years.  I don't recall him once, being 'wasted' where his performance declined.  I don't recall any of his three seasons where he couldn't have played 2, 3, 4 or 6 extra games in the NCAA tourney.  The team leader will be on the floor.  Coach Ford will be focused on maximizing this season.

How could you possibly know that? Have you spoken to Mr. Goodwin about it? Last year he played through a hand injury where he, himself, said he wouldn’t even dunk the ball, but instead would rise up and drop the ball through the hoop. Playing a few less minutes minimizes the chances of him or Has or Yuri or Perk having to deal with those lingering issues. And just because he doesn’t look tired doesn’t mean that he’s not. JGood will NEVER ask to come out of the game. That’s not in his DNA. He’s too much of a warrior, but that doesn’t mean a little extra rest wouldn’t he beneficial to him. Fatigue leads to bad habits in athletes. That’s just a fact. Your form changes. Doesn’t matter if you’re a jump shooter or a pitcher or shooting a slap shot. And the fact remains, we don’t need him to play 35 minutes a game. WTF is the point of him playing 35 minutes when we win the game by 30 points? Honestly, what is the point...other than him risking injury for no good reason? I have repeatedly said that if the game is close at all, JGood should be in the game. But my hope is that we have enough blowout wins that we dont need him to play 35 minutes every game. I’m really not sure what is so controversial about what I’m saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

This is kind of a funny conversation, isn't it.  Mr. Goodwin has averaged 34.5 mpg over three years.  I don't recall him once, being 'wasted' where his performance declined.  I don't recall any of his three seasons where he couldn't have played 2, 3, 4 or 6 extra games in the NCAA tourney.  The team leader will be on the floor.  Coach Ford will be focused on maximizing this season.

Even if you don't think Goodwin will wear down by playing too many minutes, you want to avoid injury and also want to develop other players as well.  If we're blowing teams out (up 20+ in the second), Goodwin shouldn't play much to #1 avoid injury at a time he isn't even needed and #2 get some younger guys extra playing time / experience. 

These things and him playing 30+ minutes are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  He'll probably play 20-25 minutes even if we absolutely destroy another team.  Meanwhile he's likely to play nearly 40 minutes in close games.  We're likely to have less overall blowouts than close games, so his average will be 30+.  I don't think we will see him average 35+ minutes though because I do expect some blow outs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Even if you don't think Goodwin will wear down by playing too many minutes, you want to avoid injury and also want to develop other players as well.  If we're blowing teams out (up 20+ in the second), Goodwin shouldn't play much to #1 avoid injury at a time he isn't even needed and #2 get some younger guys extra playing time / experience. 

These things and him playing 30+ minutes are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  He'll probably play 20-25 minutes even if we absolutely destroy another team.  Meanwhile he's likely to play nearly 40 minutes in close games.  We're likely to have less overall blowouts than close games, so his average will be 30+.  I don't think we will see him average 35+ minutes though because I do expect some blow outs.

Exactly! Nobody is trying to punish JGood by stripping minutes from him. He will play heavy minutes when we need him to play heavy minutes, and he won’t when we don’t. My point was never that I thought he should be playing under 25 minutes a game. But if we’re blowing teams out, which I’m hoping will do more often this year, he can chill the last five minutes and happily cheer on his teammates. That’s a reward for helping us build such a big lead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

I have never agreed with the "stay fresh" reason to sit a player more.  I guarantee you the players get more tired from a full practice than a game.  And they have more full practices than games in a year.  These players are in the best shape of their lives.  The best players should play as long as they are the best players on the floor.  If they slow down needing a break.  Fine sit for a minute, get a drink then if recovered get back in the game.  

Other than fouls or injury play the best till they are fatigued. 

That all said, yes we seem to have more quality depth than at any time in decades.  So use it.  Demand all out all the time.  Push the pace on both ends of the floor and push for the need to sub.  If we don't do that this year, imo the team strategy is  wrong.  But if we do, the minutes will take care of themselves.

I agree with your point, except when we consider those nagging injuries at the end of the year.  Everyone typically has something wearing on them.  Toward the end of the season, a little extra rest is not needed from a stamina perspective, but may be needed from a nagging injury perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Reinert310 said:

How could you possibly know that? Have you spoken to Mr. Goodwin about it? Last year he played through a hand injury where he, himself, said he wouldn’t even dunk the ball, but instead would rise up and drop the ball through the hoop. Playing a few less minutes minimizes the chances of him or Has or Yuri or Perk having to deal with those lingering issues. And just because he doesn’t look tired doesn’t mean that he’s not. JGood will NEVER ask to come out of the game. That’s not in his DNA. He’s too much of a warrior, but that doesn’t mean a little extra rest wouldn’t he beneficial to him. Fatigue leads to bad habits in athletes. That’s just a fact. Your form changes. Doesn’t matter if you’re a jump shooter or a pitcher or shooting a slap shot. And the fact remains, we don’t need him to play 35 minutes a game. WTF is the point of him playing 35 minutes when we win the game by 30 points? Honestly, what is the point...other than him risking injury for no good reason? I have repeatedly said that if the game is close at all, JGood should be in the game. But my hope is that we have enough blowout wins that we dont need him to play 35 minutes every game. I’m really not sure what is so controversial about what I’m saying.

if ford isnt good enough to know when a player is actually fatigued and needs to take a short break, he shouldnt be a college coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

I agree with your point, except when we consider those nagging injuries at the end of the year.  Everyone typically has something wearing on them.  Toward the end of the season, a little extra rest is not needed from a stamina perspective, but may be needed from a nagging injury perspective.

Exactly. My point really had nothing to do with being able to get up and down the court. But maybe when you’re fatigued, mixed with some nagging injury or soreness, you don’t get as much lift from your legs on your jumper, or maybe your release point drops by an inch. All of that matters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if ford isnt good enough to know when a player is actually fatigued and needs to take a short break, he shouldnt be a college coach.

Or maybe, a fatigued Jordan Goodwin was still a better option than the alternative. This year, that shouldn’t be the case. Hence, why I said JGood might be able to get a few more breaks this year...especially if we’re building insurmountable leads on a more frequent basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me get this straight - this Board is getting worked up over the concept of 4 less minutes game?  4 minutes being (35 mpg vs. 31 mpg)?  4 less minutes b/c we might have guys on the bench like Jimerson, Hargrove, Lorentsson and Strickland instead of Aaron Hines and Jack Raboin his Freshman year?  instead of our 5 man roster with oft injured Dion Wiley and Freshmen Jacobs and Hankton filling out the roster his Sophomore year?   Or even last year with the season ending losses of Jimerson and Thatch?

And 4 minutes less if we are to have a strong team/A10 Champs type of team with expected blowouts similar to how we finished this season, then isn't sitting the last 2-5 minutes of half our games expected?   

Roy.   Playing 32 mpg is still only sitting a small amount of time, no?  Between us being a far better team than in year's past and us now having real choices, the reduction of 4 minutes seems to be a win - win for both Goodwin and Team Blue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

This has been a fascinating conversation but we have 20 years of data that indicates how much Goodwin is going to play.  Coach Ford's best player has always played 33+ minutes.

If you aren’t playing your best player 33+ minutes you are doing it wrong.

Not only is Goodwin the best player on the team he is the leader of the team.

In close games he needs to be out there at least 33 minutes. He understands this and will be ready.

He can catch a breather during the blow outs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we ran a max intensity full court press fro wire to wire, it would gas even the most fit guards.  It generally also results in more fouls.  We have seen very little  of that under Ford.  In part, we have not had the depth, but I'm not convinced that it is his preference.  Ford doesn't  like giving up easy baskets and that is one of the consequences of a press. Our guard depth should definitively answer the question of how much Coach Ford will press when he has the depth to do so. 

My guess is that he will use it in desperate situations and try it on occasion, but bail on it, unless it produces immediate success.

I would really like to see it employed against teams with weak ball handlers and teams who are thin when it comes to ball handlers.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, dlarry said:

If you aren’t playing your best player 33+ minutes you are doing it wrong.

Not only is Goodwin the best player on the team he is the leader of the team.

In close games he needs to be out there at least 33 minutes. He understands this and will be ready.

He can catch a breather during the blow outs.

Pretty much exactly what I was saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Reinert310 said:

Or maybe, a fatigued Jordan Goodwin was still a better option than the alternative. This year, that shouldn’t be the case. Hence, why I said JGood might be able to get a few more breaks this year...especially if we’re building insurmountable leads on a more frequent basis.

if a fatigued goodwin is still better that moment than the bench options, goodwin should remain in the game unless he requests he come out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if a fatigued goodwin is still better that moment than the bench options, goodwin should remain in the game unless he requests he come out.

I’m OK with this.

Goodwin is a senior leader. He knows when he needs a breather.

Take him out when the score gets out of hand or when he says he needs a quick blow.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if a fatigued goodwin is still better that moment than the bench options, goodwin should remain in the game unless he requests he come out.

My point was, with Perk, Gibson, Thatch, Yuri, Jacobs, Hargrove, Strickland, and Lorentsson, a fatigued Goodwin nay not be better than the alternative, like it has been in years past. We can afford to give him an extra minute or 2 in the middle of each half. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Reinert310 said:

My point was, with Perk, Gibson, Thatch, Yuri, Jacobs, Hargrove, Strickland, and Lorentsson, a fatigued Goodwin nay not be better than the alternative, like it has been in years past. We can afford to give him an extra minute or 2 in the middle of each half. 

Maybe pull him 45 seconds or a minute before the under 8, then put him back in during the TV timeout. Maybe do the same thing at the under 16 or under 12 for either or both halves. And if we’re up 25 with 5 minutes left, pull him and let him cheer on his teammates. If the game gets close again, put him right back in. I’m not saying I want Goodwin on the bench for 5 minutes at a time. But there are creative ways, especially with our depth to keep him fresh, especially in blowouts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is getting silly.  How many times last year and in passed years has a Billiken come to the line, hit the front of the rim, and had the universal "Billikens.com" epitaph spoken, "he looks gassed." 

Especially if we increase tempo and if our bench is as good as we think it will be, it would be near criminal to not spread the minutes around more.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Reinert310 said:

My point was, with Perk, Gibson, Thatch, Yuri, Jacobs, Hargrove, Strickland, and Lorentsson, a fatigued Goodwin nay not be better than the alternative, like it has been in years past. We can afford to give him an extra minute or 2 in the middle of each half. 

if you go back and read my posts on this thread, i have said numerous times, if at the moment one of the bench alternatives would be a better player due to goodwin's fatigue, then by all means sub.   not sure why you havent caught that yet.   

the point is (and this has been posted more than once as well) at all times, unless foul trouble, or injuries whoever would be considered the best players of that moment should be in the game.   there should be no resting for the sake of resting or saving someone for some mythical maybe game months from then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Confirmed on campus: French, Goodwin, Collins, Hargrove, Jimerson, Bell, Jacobs, Strickland, Perkins, Thatch.

Confirmed not on campus: Lorentsson, Linssen.

Unconfirmed: Okoro.

Based on recent Instagram stories, it seems like Okoro isn't there yet. With no plans to play this season, anyway, I'm not worried about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

National player of the year Obi Toppin played 31 mpg last year. Bigs tend to rest a little more than guards, but somewhere around 32-33 mpg for Goodwin seems reasonable, mainly because I think we will blow out a lot of teams, especially some of the cupcakes in the nonconference schedule - we played several of them pretty close this past year. I don't expect that to happen next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...