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2 hours ago, JMM28 said:

Part of the second wave is going to be people who died because the early detection of other issues couldn't happen based on the stay at home orders. 

The largest part of the unaccounted deaths that people are trying to attribute to COVID 19 right now will turn out to be the result of people not seeking emergency treatment soon enough for non COVID 19 issues for fear of catching the virus at the hospital.  The fear that has been installed in some people is overwhelming. So much so, that they would rather just take the chances that the chest pains they are suffering are not heart attack than getting to a hospital.

We have both irrational fear mongering going on and irrational downplaying of the threat going on at the same time.  They are both being fed for political reasons and that is why we are unable to have any kind sober conversation about where we need to go from this point.   

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1 hour ago, kshoe said:

It's interesting how a word like "vastly" can be easily found in the dictionary (of very great area or extent; immense: , of very great size or proportions; huge; enormous: very great in degree, intensity, etc.) yet people can use it so differently.

To me when I hear the word vastly, I assume something that is multiple times as large. Just huge amounts bigger. I don't really think about 25% bigger as vastly. Yet, the New York Times article you posted above suggested that in New York City the "vast" under-reporting of Covid-deaths is about 25% (4,200 / 16,673 = 25%).

 

image.png.52adbcee63684af807e533775e928dc7.png

 

I'm glad the New York Times article at least acknowledges the potential that all of the shut-down activities and people's inability to get typical healthcare from the hospitals could be a part of the 25% of "vast" under-reporting.

Vastly is defined as to a great extent, and the term fits. It’s very interesting, of all of the things you can post, you chose this and ClayTravis. Word choices are interesting. When I think of Clay Travis, I think of a racist who plays a role as the lowest common denominator to prey upon people with dangerous disinformation. How does it work exactly, enabling and condoning racists and racism and cheering on minority student athletes? 

You linked a study earlier that was not peer reviewed, admittedly biased (said so by the people who actually did the study) in several categories, health, race, socio-economic background, location,. It was not peer reviewed. There were no randomized samples, and the test was outdated according to UC San Francisco.  But the disingenuous, dangerous conclusion by the racist you linked somehow concluded in his words that COVID-19 was similar to the seasonal flu. .....and you linked other pieces with similar and additional questions. 

The same person who linked this material lied about death rates in his piece and did not do a correction. He mentions this only affects the elderly (which we already know is not the case) and later in the same breath includes elderly to he 45 and above. 

This same person said on March 13th that zero Americans had died of COVID-19 in the previous 24hrs, and encouraged people to go enjoy their weekend as normal.

This same person said on March 31st that less than 20k people would die from COVID-19.

This same person said on April 30th that younger people cannot give COVID-19 to older people. (Fact check false and reckless)

This same person has encouraged crowds, beaches, protests etc...

You have said older people stay home, younger people back to normal. Who exactly do you think cares for older people at their homes, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, rehab facilities, etc....?

We are where we are (70k plus in a short amount of time) because of extreme measures taken or it would be even worse. 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/05/what-the-coronavirus-models-cant-see.html?__twitter_impression=true

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39 minutes ago, courtside said:

Vastly is defined as to a great extent, and the term fits. It’s very interesting, of all of the things you can post, you chose this and ClayTravis. Word choices are interesting. When I think of Clay Travis, I think of a racist who plays a role as the lowest common denominator to prey upon people with dangerous disinformation. How does it work exactly, enabling and condoning racists and racism and cheering on minority student athletes? 

You linked a study earlier that was not peer reviewed, admittedly biased (said so by the people who actually did the study) in several categories, health, race, socio-economic background, location,. It was not peer reviewed. There were no randomized samples, and the test was outdated according to UC San Francisco.  But the disingenuous, dangerous conclusion by the racist you linked somehow concluded in his words that COVID-19 was similar to the seasonal flu. .....and you linked other pieces with similar and additional questions. 

The same person who linked this material lied about death rates in his piece and did not do a correction. He mentions this only affects the elderly (which we already know is not the case) and later in the same breath includes elderly to he 45 and above. 

This same person said on March 13th that zero Americans had died of COVID-19 in the previous 24hrs, and encouraged people to go enjoy their weekend as normal.

This same person said on March 31st that less than 20k people would die from COVID-19.

This same person said on April 30th that younger people cannot give COVID-19 to older people. (Fact check false and reckless)

This same person has encouraged crowds, beaches, protests etc...

You have said older people stay home, younger people back to normal. Who exactly do you think cares for older people at their homes, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, rehab facilities, etc....?

We are where we are (70k plus in a short amount of time) because of extreme measures taken or it would be even worse. 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/05/what-the-coronavirus-models-cant-see.html?__twitter_impression=true

You seem to believe that because I linked a piece by Clay Travis that I share his views. Would it surprise you if I told you I had no idea who he was before I read that piece of his regarding the corona. Because I don't and that's the god's honest truth. You say he is a racist. I guess I have to take you at your word as I have no idea. Whether he is or he isn't doesn't mean that his conclusions about the corona virus necessarily have to be wrong. People are allowed to be wrong about some things and right about others. It's one thing I've come to learn is that no person, no political party, nobody is right all the time and nobody is wrong all the time. Even Mizzou fans are right sometimes...

You do bring up my comment that young people should get back to work and old people should stay home. Which I still believe. And you point out that young people have to take care of the old people at retirement homes. Totally agree that's an issue but it would seem that can be overcome with routine testing of those young people that have to do that work. It would probably be a lot more efficient than shutting down the whole country, creating 16% unemployment (and rising), and harming the livelihoods of just about everyone.

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Pretty good perspective on why the Sweden herd immunity approach should be taken with a grain of salt. Really brings into perspective just how many uncertain variables there are in all of this (e.g. specificity of the existing antibody tests, true prevalence of Covid in populations, etc).

Opinion | Coronavirus and the Sweden Myth

At the end of the day, being overly cautious from the get-go was most likely the correct move for the majority of nations, particularly the U.S. (even though our response time was significantly delayed). Here's the thing, America is probably the least physically healthy population of any developed nation in the world, and consequently the least equipped to deal with a pandemic. Rates of diabetes, HTN, other chronic underlying conditions are significantly higher than most other developed countries, not to mention our population just being less healthy in general due to higher rates of poverty, inequality, toxic stress, etc. Those factors all diminish immune capacity.

Simply expecting a Sweden approach to work here is pretty naive, given that their population is more homogenous and is overall far more healthy than ours. I highly doubt that pockets of the U.S. which have higher poverty, higher inequality, more obesity, and more underlying health risks would be completely protected from a targeted herd immunity approach. If anything, such an approach would exacerbate the disparities that already exist for those people, since they would essentially be forced to lock down for many more months than everyone else, not to mention they may be more likely to become exposed to the virus.

I get that people can't go on like this forever, and that there needs to be a balanced approach to ultimately start reopening things. I agree with Brian, it doesn't help that we have irrational fear mongering and irrational downplaying of the threat both occurring simultaneously right now. Honestly I think the only solution to preserve the economy and prevent people from simply starving is to implement some kind of universal basic income. 

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6 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Pretty good perspective on why the Sweden herd immunity approach should be taken with a grain of salt. Really brings into perspective just how many uncertain variables there are in all of this (e.g. specificity of the existing antibody tests, true prevalence of Covid in populations, etc).

Opinion | Coronavirus and the Sweden Myth

At the end of the day, being overly cautious from the get-go was most likely the correct move for the majority of nations, particularly the U.S. (even though our response time was significantly delayed). Here's the thing, America is probably the least physically healthy population of any developed nation in the world, and consequently the least equipped to deal with a pandemic. Rates of diabetes, HTN, other chronic underlying conditions are significantly higher than most other developed countries, not to mention our population just being less healthy in general due to higher rates of poverty, inequality, toxic stress, etc. Those factors all diminish immune capacity.

Simply expecting a Sweden approach to work here is pretty naive, given that their population is more homogenous and is overall far more healthy than ours. I highly doubt that pockets of the U.S. which have higher poverty, higher inequality, more obesity, and more underlying health risks would be completely protected from a targeted herd immunity approach. If anything, such an approach would exacerbate the disparities that already exist for those people, since they would essentially be forced to lock down for many more months than everyone else, not to mention they may be more likely to become exposed to the virus.

I get that people can't go on like this forever, and that there needs to be a balanced approach to ultimately start reopening things. I agree with Brian, it doesn't help that we have irrational fear mongering and irrational downplaying of the threat both occurring simultaneously right now. Honestly I think the only solution to preserve the economy and prevent people from simply starving is to implement some kind of universal basic income. 

I was with this post right up until the last sentence.  

To prevent people from simply starving, we allow people to work.  

The articles citing entire prison populations with the virus but everyone being asymptomatic is being downplayed. I don’t know what it is going to take to isolate the vulnerable and let others continue to live our lives.  The entire structure of America may be in jeopardy here, Democrats want to remain shut until a vaccine and lay all the problems at Trump’s feet and most republicans want to  just get on with life.  

This weekend in DC was gorgeous and had massive amounts of people walking around, some with masks but most not.  I’m willing to wager that hospitals will not be overrun as a result.  We just have to relax some stuff so people don’t go crazy 

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15 minutes ago, SLU_Nick said:

I was with this post right up until the last sentence.  

To prevent people from simply starving, we allow people to work.  

The articles citing entire prison populations with the virus but everyone being asymptomatic is being downplayed. I don’t know what it is going to take to isolate the vulnerable and let others continue to live our lives.  The entire structure of America may be in jeopardy here, Democrats want to remain shut until a vaccine and lay all the problems at Trump’s feet and most republicans want to  just get on with life.  

This weekend in DC was gorgeous and had massive amounts of people walking around, some with masks but most not.  I’m willing to wager that hospitals will not be overrun as a result.  We just have to relax some stuff so people don’t go crazy 

Problem is, most work as we know it probably won't exist IMO. The pandemic simply accelerated trends that have been going on for years. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/bridge-post-pandemic-world-already-collapsing/611089/

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19 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Problem is, most work as we know it probably won't exist IMO. The pandemic simply accelerated trends that have been going on for years. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/bridge-post-pandemic-world-already-collapsing/611089/

That is a laughable take, frankly. If that were the case, we wouldn't have to worry about the pandemic. Everyone might as well kill themselves, which is about as reasonable as this article. 

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8 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Problem is, most work as we know it probably won't exist IMO. The pandemic simply accelerated trends that have been going on for years. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/bridge-post-pandemic-world-already-collapsing/611089/

I'm jealous of my fellow MBMs who are already 60+ and are financially well off.  They won't have to deal with massive net elimination of jobs that will take place over the next 20 years.  This era isn't like the transition from railroads to cars that actually increased the number of jobs.  The purpose of automation is to replace 10 people with one highly skilled tech person and a robot. 

I don't expect folks who lived for six decades under a much different paradigm to support measures that account for a much smaller work force.  But technological advancement will increasingly force government and business into addressing situations they're not ready to address.

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23 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Problem is, most work as we know it probably won't exist IMO. The pandemic simply accelerated trends that have been going on for years. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/bridge-post-pandemic-world-already-collapsing/611089/

The pain and destruction among small businesses she references is very real.  But I don’t see anything in her argument that supports the suggestion that no new enterprises will rise up on the other side of this to take their place.

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I imagine the same story will be playing out at other D1 schools.

Don’t expect the long promised increase in commitment to athletics at our A10 brethren like Fordham, LaSalle, GW etc. to happen anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, kshoe said:

You seem to believe that because I linked a piece by Clay Travis that I share his views. Would it surprise you if I told you I had no idea who he was before I read that piece of his regarding the corona. Because I don't and that's the god's honest truth. You say he is a racist. I guess I have to take you at your word as I have no idea. Whether he is or he isn't doesn't mean that his conclusions about the corona virus necessarily have to be wrong. People are allowed to be wrong about some things and right about others. It's one thing I've come to learn is that no person, no political party, nobody is right all the time and nobody is wrong all the time. Even Mizzou fans are right sometimes...

You do bring up my comment that young people should get back to work and old people should stay home. Which I still believe. And you point out that young people have to take care of the old people at retirement homes. Totally agree that's an issue but it would seem that can be overcome with routine testing of those young people that have to do that work. It would probably be a lot more efficient than shutting down the whole country, creating 16% unemployment (and rising), and harming the livelihoods of just about everyone.

What about the many Seniors who live at home and are taken care of by family, friends, etc? Where exactly do they get their daily/weekly tests? Because that is a large segment of the people, not professional workers. 

You used an example of someone being a Mizzou fan in the discussion about someone being racist (among other things). That’s quite an interesting comparison. The point being, that some things are non-starters and it isn’t ok to simply just let that go and pick and choose something else someone says, which was still bad. That among other things eliminates someone’s credibility, and, it isn’t good enough to just enable and condone, or even, simply just ignore it. There is such a thing as a basic standard of being. Racism clearly is not high on your lost of big deals, among other things. 

It would have been much more effective to give direct payments to people than wealthy corporate bailouts. These are the companies that have received money:

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

70k dead and counting, with lagged behind numbers, beginning of May, with significant lockdowns in place. That’s where we are. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, ARon said:


I imagine the same story will be playing out at other D1 schools.

Don’t expect the long promised increase in commitment to athletics at our A10 brethren like Fordham, LaSalle, GW etc. to happen anytime soon.

Look, I don't have 100% understanding of endowments, but as of 2018 SLU had a ~$1billion endowment. There seems to be something incongruent here. 

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1 minute ago, moytoy12 said:

Look, I don't have 100% understanding of endowments, but as of 2018 SLU had a ~$1billion endowment. There seems to be something incongruent here. 

Given the market lately it may very well not be that anymore.  And while they may very well draw it down, I doubt very much that is only way SLU makes up the difference.

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2 minutes ago, ARon said:

Given the market lately it may very well not be that anymore.  And while they may very well draw it down, I doubt very much that is only way SLU makes up the difference.

I'm admittedly ignorant when it comes to university operations and the endowment, but why does a university with a $500mm-$1b endowment have to cut anything? I understand the endowment is not a savings account, but why does a university (any university) continually build up a financial nest egg for the future, but refuse to deploy those resources in the present troubled times?  Honestly asking.

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24 minutes ago, courtside said:

What about the many Seniors who live at home and are taken care of by family, friends, etc? Where exactly do they get their daily/weekly tests? Because that is a large segment of the people, not professional workers. 

You used an example of someone being a Mizzou fan in the discussion about someone being racist (among other things). That’s quite an interesting comparison. The point being, that some things are non-starters and it isn’t ok to simply just let that go and pick and choose something else someone says, which was still bad. That among other things eliminates someone’s credibility, and, it isn’t good enough to just enable and condone, or even, simply just ignore it. There is such a thing as a basic standard of being. Racism clearly is not high on your lost of big deals, among other things. 

It would have been much more effective to give direct payments to people than wealthy corporate bailouts. These are the companies that have received money:

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

70k dead and counting, with lagged behind numbers, beginning of May, with significant lockdowns in place. That’s where we are. 

 

 

If someone lives or works with seniors then they don't have to go back to work, if they don't want to. I'm not forcing anyone to do something they aren't comfortable with. But I am allowing those people that live in relative bubbles of young people to get back to their work since those bubbles aren't at material risk.

You need to get off the race card here. I said I've never heard of Travis Clay and I don't know anything about his views on race. I have read exactly one article of his regarding the corona virus and it made sense to me. That's it. The Mizzou add-in was a joke. I apologize for not doing and knowing a full biography of every internet author I read or link on here. 

The U.S. did give direct payments to people. $1,200 each.

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1 minute ago, kshoe said:

I'm not forcing anyone to do something they aren't comfortable with. But I am allowing those people that live in relative bubbles of young people to get back to their work since those bubbles aren't at material risk.

Given the breakdown of occupations amongst the "young people", I would say that an overwhelming majority of them are already working (or back to work): https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18b.htm.

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1 hour ago, SLU_Nick said:

The entire structure of America may be in jeopardy here...

Here is the structure of America and just a few reasons why i'm ok with it being obliterated:

White Americans with military style weapons can verbally attack police officers and face no repercussions while black Americans who kneel during the national anthem lose their job...

Corporations bailed out 10-12 years ago get another bailout because they spent their tax break on stock buybacks...

America is responding to a pandemic like a third world country...

Large areas of the US don't have running water, but have to face a pandemic without federal assistance...

Public cash flush firms get PPP dollars...

Jared Kushner's companies refuse to grant relief to tenants during a pandemic...

People of color, thanks to decades/centuries of oppression, are dying disproportionately...

Our president thinks we should inject disinfectant...

Tens of millions unemployed but only a fraction receiving assistance...

Tons of food being destroyed while millions starve...

Thanks to the federal government seizing supplies, states secretly negotiating with foreign countries government to get essential medical supplies to its citizens...

70,000 dead is considered success...

 

 

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28 minutes ago, kshoe said:

If someone lives or works with seniors then they don't have to go back to work, if they don't want to. I'm not forcing anyone to do something they aren't comfortable with. But I am allowing those people that live in relative bubbles of young people to get back to their work since those bubbles aren't at material risk.

You need to get off the race card here. I said I've never heard of Travis Clay and I don't know anything about his views on race. I have read exactly one article of his regarding the corona virus and it made sense to me. That's it. The Mizzou add-in was a joke. I apologize for not doing and knowing a full biography of every internet author I read or link on here. 

The U.S. did give direct payments to people. $1,200 each.

There are people in your bubbles who come and go taking care of elderly and disabled relatives who live alone.

Why would I not discuss one of the things for which that person is most known, among others? 

Your responses since it has been pointed out to you have been both jokes about Mizzou and indifference. 

Speaking of racism, https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/women-minority-business-owners-paycheck-protection-program-loans/?__twitter_impression=true

(I'm not talking about the limited one time small payment.) 

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11 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here is the structure of America and just a few reasons why i'm ok with it being obliterated:

White Americans with military style weapons can verbally attack police officers and face no repercussions while black Americans who kneel during the national anthem lose their job...

Corporations bailed out 10-12 years ago get another bailout because they spent their tax break on stock buybacks...

America is responding to a pandemic like a third world country...

Large areas of the US don't have running water, but have to face a pandemic without federal assistance...

Public cash flush firms get PPP dollars...

Jared Kushner's companies refuse to grant relief to tenants during a pandemic...

People of color, thanks to decades/centuries of oppression, are dying disproportionately...

Our president thinks we should inject disinfectant...

Tens of millions unemployed but only a fraction receiving assistance...

Tons of food being destroyed while millions starve...

Thanks to the federal government seizing supplies, states secretly negotiating with foreign countries government to get essential medical supplies to its citizens...

70,000 dead is considered success...

 

 

Remember how annoying Roy billiken and old guy were earlier in this thread? That is you, right now, maybe worse, just the other side of the coin.

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3 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Remember how annoying Roy billiken and old guy were earlier in this thread? That is you, right now, maybe worse, just the other side of the coin.

Cool.  But I won't hope for someone to die, so I have that going for me.

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14 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here is the structure of America and just a few reasons why i'm ok with it being obliterated:

White Americans with military style weapons can verbally attack police officers and face no repercussions while black Americans who kneel during the national anthem lose their job...

Corporations bailed out 10-12 years ago get another bailout because they spent their tax break on stock buybacks...

America is responding to a pandemic like a third world country...

Large areas of the US don't have running water, but have to face a pandemic without federal assistance...

Public cash flush firms get PPP dollars...

Jared Kushner's companies refuse to grant relief to tenants during a pandemic...

People of color, thanks to decades/centuries of oppression, are dying disproportionately...

Our president thinks we should inject disinfectant...

Tens of millions unemployed but only a fraction receiving assistance...

Tons of food being destroyed while millions starve...

Thanks to the federal government seizing supplies, states secretly negotiating with foreign countries government to get essential medical supplies to its citizens...

70,000 dead is considered success...

 

 

Well said, list could go on forever.Most folks who knee jerk reject all of this are entitled white citizens.

50 year anniversary of the Kent State killings the day I first saw the light as a 16 year old. Been repulsed by the right wing of our country everyday since and they have never stopped reinforcing that dislike. 

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6 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Remember how annoying Roy billiken and old guy were earlier in this thread? That is you, right now, maybe worse, just the other side of the coin.

Much of their being annoying was because they were saying things that were wrong some spectacularly. We are barreling down toward O G being wrong on death totals times 3.

 

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25 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here is the structure of America and just a few reasons why i'm ok with it being obliterated:

White Americans with military style weapons can verbally attack police officers and face no repercussions while black Americans who kneel during the national anthem lose their job...

Corporations bailed out 10-12 years ago get another bailout because they spent their tax break on stock buybacks...

America is responding to a pandemic like a third world country...

Large areas of the US don't have running water, but have to face a pandemic without federal assistance...

Public cash flush firms get PPP dollars...

Jared Kushner's companies refuse to grant relief to tenants during a pandemic...

People of color, thanks to decades/centuries of oppression, are dying disproportionately...

Our president thinks we should inject disinfectant...

Tens of millions unemployed but only a fraction receiving assistance...

Tons of food being destroyed while millions starve...

Thanks to the federal government seizing supplies, states secretly negotiating with foreign countries government to get essential medical supplies to its citizens...

70,000 dead is considered success...

 

 

Good post - Not annoying at all. It was shocking to see those armed Michigan protesters screaming and pushing police officers. I guess "blue-lives matter" doesn't apply all the time. I can't qwhite put my finger on what the difference is.

Also, it's pretty funny to see a bunch of people protesting not being able to go out in public as they stand in a public building with no one trying to get them to leave.

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1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

I'm admittedly ignorant when it comes to university operations and the endowment, but why does a university with a $500mm-$1b endowment have to cut anything? I understand the endowment is not a savings account, but why does a university (any university) continually build up a financial nest egg for the future, but refuse to deploy those resources in the present troubled times?  Honestly asking.

I can not answer your question completely but I would think that the school uses the income from the endowment in their operating budget projections so if you start spending the principal then the income you were counting on is decreased which only then requires you to use more principal - a vicious cycle not unlike retired people find themselves in when interest rates stay low.

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