Can Someone Please Explain This

[HoosierPal]

Chapley posted a wonderful article yesterday about Rabion.   https://www.scoopswithdannymac.com/the-unsung-hero-of-slu-basketball-jack-raboin-earns-his-moment/

He seems like a wonderful person with a pathway towards fulfilling his ambitions.  He graduated in December with a Masters in Sociology.  I love this kid.

However, there was an item in the article that raised my eyebrows.  Below are the three paragraphs I interpret as Jack being on scholarship but he has done no school work or attended classes since December.  His Master's program doesn't start until mid-March.  And it does not say in the article if he will continue in the Master's program or not.  Even Rabion says  he had to check it out to see if this furlough was legal, and it is.  This seems like a loophole that I'm sure many, many schools take part in for Grad Transfers, enroll in school but don't worry about any details such as actual classes, studying, or being a student.  Just hang out, play basketball.....life is good.

The senior is currently living the college athlete dream in his final few months of being an undergraduate student. After graduating in December with a sociology degree, he immediately enrolled in a graduate program so he could remain a full-time student. Joining the Organizational Leadership program fellow graduate student/senior Tay Weaver is enrolled in, Jack will receive a certificate that he can turn into a master’s degree should he desire to at a later time. The significant benefit of the program is that it doesn’t start until the Monday after the A-10 tournament.

“I’ve just been working out, hanging out, enjoying basketball for the last month.” Jack explained, “I talked to the advisors and was like ‘hey is this going to be legal?’ and they looked into were like ‘yup you’re good to go.'”

“It’s the dream. Wake up, work out, come to practice at 2:30, eat, hang out, and do it all again the next day.”

Any info on insight from @DoctorB, @SluSignGuy

[dlarry]

2 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

 

“I’ve just been working out, hanging out, enjoying basketball for the last month.” Jack explained, “I talked to the advisors and was like ‘hey is this going to be legal?’ and they looked into were like ‘yup you’re good to go.'”

 

Any info on insight f @DoctorB, @SluSignGuy

They call this the “rock chalk” program.

It has also been implemented at UNC, Duke, and every SEC football school.

The only difference is these schools use this program for all players not just graduates.

[DoctorB]

HP:  I'm not so familiar with this situation, but yes, he is enrolled for this semester (though starting later). So my guess is, the break between fall and spring does not matter.  Remember that we played at least 6 games between finals of 2019 and first class of Jan. 2020.  It's a shorter break obviously, but in our case, still almost 4 full weeks.  So yes, this is much longer, but a break is a break, I. guess.

[Taj79]

I have read some speculation on the entire grad transfer situation as it currently exists.  Supposedly, kids can graduate and then enroll in another D1 school that offers a graduate program NOT offered at their current school.  If that is the case, they can transfer and be eligible immediately.  To be eligible only means making NCAA-identified progress towards that degree, in other words, 12 credit hours per semester qualifies you as a full-time student.  Some in the NCAA are calling for deeper checks on whether or not these kids actually get that master's degree.  I am willing to bet most don't.  I don't know if this affects the APR or if the APR even exists anymore.  I used to get all my APR info on comments from kshoe and others.

As I noted in another thread, even seniors don't necessarily graduate as many just chuck it in after the playing season ends in March/April.  Two examples I used are well-known to me.... Bobby Brannen at Cincinnati and Jake Layton at Maryland.  Both eschewed going to class once their eligibility was intact to finish out.  Layton's rationale was "I'm getting ready for the NBA pre-draft camps and my next basketball career."  That was an exact quote from the Baltimore Sun.  This is where the discussion on mid-term grades and Demarius Jacobs came from.  Officially, mid-term grades are not permanent and the NCAA only concerns itself with that 'progress'towards a degree.  You see football players declared ineligible before lots of bowl games ---- those first semester grades knock guys out from a minimum GPA requirement. That usually doesn't happen with basketball players because their seasons cross semesters.  Studs like Anthony Davis and James Wiseman, guys who know they are one and done, can and do chuck the class routine long before that second semester is over.  That was what the APR was supposed to correct --- or discourage.  Vince Carter is another who went back to UNC 10 to 15 years AFTER he 'graduated' to finally get his UNC degree.  I think Tommie Liddell III finally graduated from SLU in a similar situation.  Years later.

Given SLU's AD statements on how its about the students, I am confident SLU does more than the sham programs like Kentucky and others.  I am sure the Compliance Department met with Raboin and determined all was legal.  Does Tay Weaver go to class?  I'd like to think so.  Did Tremaine Isabell graduate with his Masters?  I doubt it.  Did Javon Bess graduate?  DJ Foreman?  Ian Voyuoukous?  I'd like to think so but don't really know off hand.  Sounds like a case of playing by the rules handed to you.

[rgbilliken]

15 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

I have read some speculation on the entire grad transfer situation as it currently exists.  Supposedly, kids can graduate and then enroll in another D1 school that offers a graduate program NOT offered at their current school.  If that is the case, they can transfer and be eligible immediately.  To be eligible only means making NCAA-identified progress towards that degree, in other words, 12 credit hours per semester qualifies you as a full-time student.  Some in the NCAA are calling for deeper checks on whether or not these kids actually get that master's degree.  I am willing to bet most don't.  I don't know if this affects the APR or if the APR even exists anymore.  I used to get all my APR info on comments from kshoe and others.

As I noted in another thread, even seniors don't necessarily graduate as many just chuck it in after the playing season ends in March/April.  Two examples I used are well-known to me.... Bobby Brannen at Cincinnati and Jake Layton at Maryland.  Both eschewed going to class once their eligibility was intact to finish out.  Layton's rationale was "I'm getting ready for the NBA pre-draft camps and my next basketball career."  That was an exact quote from the Baltimore Sun.  This is where the discussion on mid-term grades and Demarius Jacobs came from.  Officially, mid-term grades are not permanent and the NCAA only concerns itself with that 'progress'towards a degree.  You see football players declared ineligible before lots of bowl games ---- those first semester grades knock guys out from a minimum GPA requirement. That usually doesn't happen with basketball players because their seasons cross semesters.  Studs like Anthony Davis and James Wiseman, guys who know they are one and done, can and do chuck the class routine long before that second semester is over.  That was what the APR was supposed to correct --- or discourage.  Vince Carter is another who went back to UNC 10 to 15 years AFTER he 'graduated' to finally get his UNC degree.  I think Tommie Liddell III finally graduated from SLU in a similar situation.  Years later.

Given SLU's AD statements on how its about the students, I am confident SLU does more than the sham programs like Kentucky and others.  I am sure the Compliance Department met with Raboin and determined all was legal.  Does Tay Weaver go to class?  I'd like to think so.  Did Tremaine Isabell graduate with his Masters?  I doubt it.  Did Javon Bess graduate?  DJ Foreman?  Ian Voyuoukous?  I'd like to think so but don't really know off hand.  Sounds like a case of playing by the rules handed to you.

There's data on this; see link below.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/academic-outcomes-division-i-postgraduate-student-athletes

[Bishop]

This actually isn't all that uncommon.  Most accounting schools offer a full slate of classes that don't start until late March so that students have the opportunity to complete internships / work full time during busy accounting seasons.  

Same idea just replace tax / accounting for basketball.

[Taj79]

@rgbilliken:  thanks.  So if I read that right, only 19% of postgraduates transfer get their degree.  One in five.  Is that a correct interpretation?

[rgbilliken]

5 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

@rgbilliken:  thanks.  So if I read that right, only 19% of postgraduates transfer get their degree.  One in five.  Is that a correct interpretation?

My understanding is that the 19% number is an enrollment number. Figure 1, pasted below, suggests that 50% of grad transfers overall get a degree, but the numbers for men's basketball and football are much worse (34 and 31%, respectively--the 50% number weights all D1 grad transfers the same, i.e., women's tennis grad transfers are the same as MBB). So your assertion that most don't get a degree is correct, but it's more like 1/3 than 1/5. However, I would be willing to bet that the numbers would be even worse if you broke it down further to the top programs vs. the more academic institutions, but I don't see any data on that reported. 

[Cowboy]

10 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

My understanding is that the 19% number is an enrollment number. Figure 1, pasted below, suggests that 50% of grad transfers overall get a degree, but the numbers for men's basketball and football are much worse (34 and 31%, respectively--the 50% number weights all D1 grad transfers the same, i.e., women's tennis grad transfers are the same as MBB). So your assertion that most don't get a degree is correct, but it's more like 1/3 than 1/5. However, I would be willing to bet that the numbers would be even worse if you broke it down further to the top programs vs. the more academic institutions, but I don't see any data on that reported. 

-while not great, those 34 and 31 percents are higher than I expected but still points to much of this grad transfer thing being a scam imo

 

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, DoctorB said:

HP:  I'm not so familiar with this situation, but yes, he is enrolled for this semester (though starting later). So my guess is, the break between fall and spring does not matter.  Remember that we played at least 6 games between finals of 2019 and first class of Jan. 2020.  It's a shorter break obviously, but in our case, still almost 4 full weeks.  So yes, this is much longer, but a break is a break, I. guess.

 

1 hour ago, Bishop said:

This actually isn't all that uncommon.  Most accounting schools offer a full slate of classes that don't start until late March so that students have the opportunity to complete internships / work full time during busy accounting seasons.  

Same idea just replace tax / accounting for basketball.

Thanks guys.  Maybe by piecing these two responses together, the answer is in there somewhere.  I'm good on the internship angle, but I'm not sold on that internship being 'working out'.  Again, if the loophole is there, good for Jack using it.  The loophole needs to be closed IMO. 

We have had now, 6 Grad Transfers in the Ford era?  Anthony, Bess, Isabell, Wiley and now Weaver and Raboin.  (Foreman I don't believe graduated with his bachelors until his 5th year so wasn't a GT.)  Did any of these get at Masters?  Weaver and Rabion are of course TBD.

[DoctorB]

Bess came as a junior, I think.

[kappy96]

10 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

 

Thanks guys.  Maybe by piecing these two responses together, the answer is in there somewhere.  I'm good on the internship angle, but I'm not sold on that internship being 'working out'.  Again, if the loophole is there, good for Jack using it.  The loophole needs to be closed IMO. 

We have had now, 6 Grad Transfers in the Ford era?  Anthony, Bess, Isabell, Wiley and now Weaver and Raboin.  (Foreman I don't believe graduated with his bachelors until his 5th year so wasn't a GT.)  Did any of these get at Masters?  Weaver and Rabion are of course TBD.

Neither Bess or Raboin were GT.

[HoosierPal]

11 minutes ago, kappy96 said:

Neither Bess or Raboin were GT.

Okay, they weren't TRANSFERS, but they were Graduates with a BA and played after graduation.  The transfer distinction is moot.

Rabion graduated in December and is enrolled in a Masters that starts after the A10 tourney.

Bess graduated in 2018 with a BA in Sociology.  He stuck around a year doing what if he wasn't in a Graduate program?

Crawford received his BA in 2016 and then continued as a Graduate Student and obtained at least one Masters.  Him I understand.

[Cowboy]

-so this thread is about something other than Grad Transfers?

[Quality Is Job 1]

HoosierPal, you seem to be trying to indict SLU for impropriety; can't you understand that the program begins later than other spring semester work, but is still during the spring semester?  That is, there's nothing to see here, move on!

[HoosierPal]

11 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

HoosierPal, you seem to be trying to indict SLU for impropriety; can't you understand that the program begins later than other spring semester work, but is still during the spring semester?  That is, there's nothing to see here, move on!

I'm indicting the Graduate Program rules of the NCAA. As I pointed out, Jack did his due diligence and the SLU staff said, yes this is legal.   And as I said, I can buy an 'internship' as pointed out by Bishop, but not a 'working out' reason.  The NCAA is apparently allowing 'students' to continue playing sports with little to no connection to a student's academic life.  As I said earlier, good for Jack Rabion and the staff for finding this loophole. 

To me, it's not right for someone on an athletic scholarship to not have to worry about academics.  If you are done with academics, move on.  If you want to stay on as a student, be a student.  If Jack does in fact stay around and completes his Masters, I will applaud him.   

[3star_recruit]

25 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I'm indicting the Graduate Program rules of the NCAA. As I pointed out, Jack did his due diligence and the SLU staff said, yes this is legal.   And as I said, I can buy an 'internship' as pointed out by Bishop, but not a 'working out' reason.  The NCAA is apparently allowing 'students' to continue playing sports with little to no connection to a student's academic life.  As I said earlier, good for Jack Rabion and the staff for finding this loophole. 

To me, it's not right for someone on an athletic scholarship to not have to worry about academics.  If you are done with academics, move on.  If you want to stay on as a student, be a student.  If Jack does in fact stay around and completes his Masters, I will applaud him.   

It's also not right to disqualify students from athletics because their course starts later in the semester.  That was the school's decision to start their course in March.  The NCAA had nothing to do with it.

[thetorch]

The Heisman winning QB for LSU took the minimum amount of credits online to be able to play.  He never stepped foot in an LSU classroom for the duration of his time there.

There are so many loopholes around this stuff.  I just assume most grad transfers don't get masters degrees.  Getting a masters is a ton of work depending on your major much more intensive than undergrad classes.

[slu72]

9 hours ago, DoctorB said:

Bess came as a junior, I think.

He did. Not a GT. And I think he graduated. At least he had pics posted of him w/ his degree.