GDT: The Not So Wild-Cats

[3star_recruit]

18 minutes ago, NH said:

Grant has a much spottier track record than those other guys. We have six years of mediocrity at Alabama on Grants track record. Even less successful than Ford was at OSU. This is now his 3rd season at Dayton, and will be his first NCAA tourney appearance. He’s Dayton’s Travis Ford.

Just means that Grant struggled at the high major level.  Other very good mid-major coaches have experienced similar difficulties, there's no shame in that.  His record at the mid-major level has been very good: 2 NCAA appearances out of 3 seasons at VCU and on track for high seed with Dayton this year.  Even more impressive when you look at the roster Archie Miller left behind.

Coach Ford also had good squads at UMass before his ups and downs at the high major level.  For whatever reason, the A-10 success of Grant and Ford before their second tour of duty gets ignored.  

[billiken_roy]

52 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

I mean Dayton is arguably the best offensive team in the country right now. Grant is a significant part of that. What would you consider to be not "choking it away"? I would say a Sweet 16 appearance. 

with the talent that he has i would expect at least a sweet 16 this year.  

[glazedandconfused]

26 minutes ago, NH said:

Grant has a much spottier track record than those other guys. We have six years of mediocrity at Alabama on Grants track record. Even less successful than Ford was at OSU. This is now his 3rd season at Dayton, and will be his first NCAA tourney appearance. He’s Dayton’s Travis Ford.

I mean that's so incorrect. Dambrot/Rhoades/Grant/Schmidt seasons are below. You could make an argument that Dambrot is in the same tier as Grant, but definitely not higher. 

Dambrot - yes he won 6 regular season MAC titles, but still only 3 tourney appearances in 15 years in the MAC. Followed by 2 ok seasons with Duquesne. 3 tourney appearances in 17 years

Rhoades - I audibly gasped when I saw how little of a track record rhoades has. He's basically had 1.5 good seasons in his career. We can all agree he doesn't have a better track record than Grant

Grant - 3 good years at VCU. Followed by 4 fine years at Bama before the last 2. Obviously has been great with Dayton after a rough first year. Still 4 tourney appearances in 13 years

Schmidt - Has basically had 4 good seasons his whole career. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slufanskip]

1 hour ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Crazy given all of the "we have such incredible depth" talk at the beginning of the season....

Obviously we were talking about how we were at that moment. We have 2 probable starters out for the season. That clearly reduces your depth. It moves Weaver and Hargrove up to spots. Big difference being players 8 and 9 and players 6 and 7. 

[NH]

23 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Just means that Grant struggled at the high major level.  Other very good mid-major coaches have experienced similar difficulties, there's no shame in that.  His record at the mid-major level has been very good: 2 NCAA appearances out of 3 seasons at VCU and on track for high seed with Dayton this year.  Even more impressive when you look at the roster Archie Miller left behind.

Coach Ford also had good squads at UMass before his ups and downs at the high major level.  For whatever reason, the A-10 success of Grant and Ford before their second tour of duty gets ignored.  

I never said there was shame in his struggles at Alabama. I said he was Dayton's Travis Ford. I have also said that I think Ford is a great fit for SLU and that I'm really happy to have him. 

Grant never coached in the A-10 prior to this stop at Dayton.

[3star_recruit]

7 minutes ago, NH said:

I never said there was shame in his struggles at Alabama. I said he was Dayton's Travis Ford. I have also said that I think Ford is a great fit for SLU and that I'm really happy to have him. 

Grant never coached in the A-10 prior to this stop at Dayton.

Thanks for the correction.  Grant coached in the CAA, back when it was in comparable in strength to the current A-10.

[NH]

31 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

I mean that's so incorrect. Dambrot/Rhoades/Grant/Schmidt seasons are below. You could make an argument that Dambrot is in the same tier as Grant, but definitely not higher. 

Dambrot - yes he won 6 regular season MAC titles, but still only 3 tourney appearances in 15 years in the MAC. Followed by 2 ok seasons with Duquesne. 3 tourney appearances in 17 years

Rhoades - I audibly gasped when I saw how little of a track record rhoades has. He's basically had 1.5 good seasons in his career. We can all agree he doesn't have a better track record than Grant

Grant - 3 good years at VCU. Followed by 4 fine years at Bama before the last 2. Obviously has been great with Dayton after a rough first year. Still 4 tourney appearances in 13 years

Schmidt - Has basically had 4 good seasons his whole career. 

I think you're missing my point. Travis Ford and Anthony Grant are both examples of coaches whose stock rose quickly, who have been in charge of major programs at a young age and who, at one point or another failed. If you compare that with a guy like Mckillop, who has had nothing but success the track record is much spottier (more down moments). Mark Schmidt gets graded on a curve because of the program he has been tasked with running. But his teams never underachieve, which is something that cannot be said for Grant and Ford.  

I don't really rate Dambrot as highly as Mckillop/Schmidt. Too soon to say for Rhoades. 

There is not one standard by which you can judge coaches. It's perfectly reasonable for people to think of Mckillop and Schmidt as better coaches than Grant because they consistently get the most out of their talent. 

That said, I think Ford and Grant are both in great situations now and will continue to run successful programs. There’s not a single coach in the A-10 who id want instead of Ford, and I’m guessing Dayton fans feel the same way about Grant.

[glazedandconfused]

13 minutes ago, NH said:

I think you're missing my point. Travis Ford and Anthony Grant are both examples of coaches whose stock rose quickly, who have been in charge of major programs at a young age and who, at one point or another failed. If you compare that with a guy like Mckillop, who has had nothing but success the track record is much spottier (more down moments). Mark Schmidt gets graded on a curve because of the program he has been tasked with running. But his teams never underachieve, which is something that cannot be said for Grant and Ford.  

I don't really rate Dambrot as highly as Mckillop/Schmidt. Too soon to say for Rhoades. 

There is not one standard by which you can judge coaches. It's perfectly reasonable for people to think of Mckillop and Grant as better coaches than Grant because they consistently get the most out of their talent. 

But you're still just making things up. McKillop by my count has had 12 "bad years" (arbitrary cut off of 16-14 or worse) or 40% of his seasons in a much easier Southern Conference for most of it. Grant has only had 3 down seasons in 12 years (25% of his season) in much harder conferences. 

We just didn't care about McKillop/Davidson until they joined the A10 (except for Curry's tenure) so there's no spot light on his rough years. He's definitely not been "nothing but success" over his 30 years. 

 

[slu72]

4 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

The paint was triple teamed last night.  French is a paint player.  There's no reason to smother him at the free throw line.  He's coming to the rim.  He's got nowhere else to go.

But they have to come out to stop him from driving to the hoop. It gives him some space. He had none last night. Every time he got a touch inside there were 3 Davidson bigs all around him. He had no room to do anything. He's got to get to work on a 10-15 ft jumper. 

[David King]

3 hours ago, Pistol said:

For the record, we've also never won at VCU

Luckily, VCU is a home game this year.

[NH]

5 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

But you're still just making things up. McKillop by my count has had 12 "bad years" (arbitrary cut off of 16-14 or worse) or 40% of his seasons in a much easier Southern Conference for most of it. Grant has only had 3 down seasons in 12 years (25% of his season) in much harder conferences. 

We just didn't care about McKillop/Davidson until they joined the A10 (except for Curry's tenure) so there's no spot light on his rough years. He's definitely not been "nothing but success" over his 30 years. 

 

I think you're oversimplifying things. If "nothing but success" is too hyperbolic for you, that's fair. Records and tournament appearances for coaches don't work in a vacuum, the jobs have to be comparable. Mckillop didn't meet your criteria in any of his first four seasons, but the team was improving year over year. Those are successful seasons. And Mckillop has been consistently successful at Davidson. Grant had a failed coaching stop. I personally think there is a fundamental difference in track records there.

Coaching is also all about finding the right situation and fit. Grant is now at his alma mater, and it sure looks like he's building a consistent winner at Dayton. 

[3star_recruit]

7 minutes ago, slu72 said:

But they have to come out to stop him from driving to the hoop. It gives him some space. He had none last night. Every time he got a touch inside there were 3 Davidson bigs all around him. He had no room to do anything. He's got to get to work on a 10-15 ft jumper. 

Or the three guys can stay right where they and force him into tough shots/take the charge.  

[billiken_roy]

just to throw it out there, McKillops was just last month was announced as a nominee to the Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame in Springfield.   i did not see grants name on the list. 

[glazedandconfused]

1 minute ago, NH said:

I think you're oversimplifying things. If "nothing but success" is too hyperbolic for you, that's fair. Records and tournament appearances for coaches don't work in a vacuum, the jobs have to be comparable. Mckillop didn't meet your criteria in any of his first four seasons, but the team was improving year over year. Those are successful seasons. And Mckillop has been consistently successful at Davidson.Grant had a failed coaching stop. I personally think there is a fundamental difference in track records there.

Coaching is also all about finding the right situation and fit. Grant is now at his alma mater, and it sure looks like he's building a consistent winner at Dayton. 

Bob Mckillop's tenure at Davidson is essentially the same as Grant's Bama tenure. 3-4 good years then a few down years. Then repeat. At a high-major that gets you fired. At Davidson, that's more than enough.  It's not like there was 7 straight years of excellence at any point. Plus the Southern conference was really bad during that time. The only really good teams were the Steph Curry teams and the Tyler Kalinsoski senior year team. 

[David King]

4 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Given this game as evidence, and what's left and where, a Top Four finish is likely impossible.

Yeah, but given the two previous games against Richmond and Dayton as evidence, a Top Four finish is not impossible.

Weaver and Perkins were hot and 10/27 (38.5%) is not bad. A lack of outside shooting was not the problem last night It was everything else. A 36-39 rebounding deficit to a supposedly poor rebounding team is the most glaring problem. In addition, a 32-12 FTA advantage for Davidson definitely helped. I usually don't blame the refs for losses, but something is wrong if they shoot 20 more FT's than us, especially considering the way they packed it in on defense.

[glazedandconfused]

Just now, billiken_roy said:

just to throw it out there, McKillops was just last month was announced as a nominee to the Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame in Springfield.   i did not see grants name on the list. 

haha i assume you are joking, but that's because McKillop has been coaching for 30 years. Obviously he wouldn't have been considered after 12 years like Grant is currently at. 

[HoosierPal]

6 minutes ago, David King said:

In addition, a 32-12 FTA advantage for Davidson definitely helped. I usually don't blame the refs for losses, but something is wrong if they shoot 20 more FT's than us, especially considering the way they packed it in on defense.

True, the FT numbers are what they are.  But Davidson took 14 FT in the final 4 minutes, when we were down by 10 and intentionally fouling. 

[NH]

6 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

Bob Mckillop's tenure at Davidson is essentially the same as Grant's Bama tenure. 3-4 good years then a few down years. Then repeat. At a high-major that gets you fired. At Davidson, that's more than enough.  It's not like there was 7 straight years of excellence at any point. Plus the Southern conference was really bad during that time. The only really good teams were the Steph Curry teams and the Tyler Kalinsoski senior year team. 

I think you’re still comparing apples to oranges. Mckillops has been overwhelmingly successful at Davidson. That’s something that I think just about any fellow coach, fan or college basketball diehard would agree upon. He literally elevated the program to an entirely different level. There is a reason why he’s won 9 coach of the year awards.

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

1 minute ago, HoosierPal said:

True, the FT numbers are what they are.  But Davidson took 14 FT in the final 4 minutes, when we were down by 10 and intentionally fouling. 

"Intentionally fouling"- JAG throwing his hands in the air and head back every time he received contact.

[glazedandconfused]

21 minutes ago, NH said:

I think you’re still comparing apples to oranges. Mckillops has been overwhelmingly successful at Davidson. That’s something that I think just about any fellow coach, fan or college basketball diehard would agree upon. He literally elevated the program to an entirely different level. There is a reason why he’s won 9 coach of the year awards.

Obviously, I agree he was successful in the Southern Conference at Davidson.  

His career Winning percentage of 62% is 218th best of coaches with atleast 10 seasons under their belt. Just ahead of coaching legend Frank Haith (61%) and just behind one of the all-time greats Mark Turgeon (currently at Maryland). Also notably behind struggling Anthony Grant at (64%)

[slufan13]

Travis Ford is a great comparison for Grant. Neither are a great coach but both are really good fits for their schools. 

[slufanskip]

I'd say the book is still open on both. Travis takes us to a final 4 or an elite 8, and in the tourney 6-7 out of the next 10 years, what say you then? 

[almaman]

18 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

Obviously, I agree he was successful in the Southern Conference at Davidson.  

His career Winning percentage of 62% is 218th best of coaches with atleast 10 seasons under their belt. Just ahead of coaching legend Frank Haith (61%) and just behind one of the all-time greats Mark Turgeon (currently at Maryland). Also notably behind struggling Anthony Grant at (64%)

So 218+ coaches of the 353 D-1 teams have 10 or more years experience as head D-1 coach? That surprises this MBM.

[glazedandconfused]

1 minute ago, almaman said:

So 218+ coaches of the 353 D-1 teams have 10 or more years experience as head D-1 coach? That surprises this MBM.

That would be surprising, but that post above is not limited to current coaches. 

[almaman]

1 minute ago, glazedandconfused said:

That would be surprising, but that post above is not limited to current coaches. 

o i c. so 218 great if from a list of 2000 or more. pretty mediocre if out of 250. It's all relative I guess.