Fred Thatch, Jr

[billikenfan05]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Resign yourself to him being out for the season. It’s easier.

[wgstl]

1 minute ago, billikenfan05 said:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Resign yourself to him being out for the season. It’s easier.

indeed. 

[Pistol]

Thatch has a very unique situation. This isn't a muscle strain or a broken bone or something that's more cut and dry in terms of treatment and recovery time. He has a potentially long-term illness that limits him to a degree that is still being figured out. We shouldn't apply the same logic used when it comes to an injury like Jimerson's.

05 is right. Don't count on having him and it'll be a pleasant surprise if we get him back.

[moytoy12]

3 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Resign yourself to him being out for the season. It’s easier.

I will do no such thing and be continually let down when he's in street clothes at tipoff. 

[moytoy12]

1 minute ago, Pistol said:

Thatch has a very unique situation. This isn't a muscle strain or a broken bone or something that's more cut and dry in terms of treatment and recovery time. He has a potentially long-term illness that limits him to a degree that is still being figured out. We shouldn't apply the same logic used when it comes to an injury like Jimerson's.

05 is right. Don't count on having him and it'll be a pleasant surprise if we get him back.

Agreed.  Might have to fire up the google machine to see if there have been any similar illness-based redshirts in the last few years.  

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Thatch has a very unique situation. This isn't a muscle strain or a broken bone or something that's more cut and dry in terms of treatment and recovery time. He has a potentially long-term illness that limits him to a degree that is still being figured out. We shouldn't apply the same logic used when it comes to an injury like Jimerson's.

05 is right. Don't count on having him and it'll be a pleasant surprise if we get him back.

The foot thing was just the most common injury i could think of.  The point was more so if you could practice you could play.  

As for the other thing, this is true.  This is in line with what im saying.  If they dont know, yet, they shouldnt have him practicing. 

[moytoy12]

Just now, wgstl said:

The foot thing was just the most common injury i could think of.  The point was more so if you could practice you could play.  

As for the other thing, this is true.  This is in line with what im saying.  If they dont know, yet, they shouldnt have him practicing. 

Here's a recent situation at UNI that sounds somewhat similar to Fred's situation.  The UNI player received a medical redshirt.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/college/northern-iowa/uni-panthers/2019/07/02/missouri-valley-basketball-uni-austin-phyfe-illness-continues-nick-norton-medical-redshirt-drake/1616878001/

[wgstl]

3 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Agreed.  Might have to fire up the google machine to see if there have been any similar illness-based redshirts in the last few years.  

Mario Gotze from Germany had it, and returned to the soccer field. Not saying it means Thatch well, but

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here's a recent situation at UNI that sounds somewhat similar to Fred's situation.  The UNI player received a medical redshirt.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/college/northern-iowa/uni-panthers/2019/07/02/missouri-valley-basketball-uni-austin-phyfe-illness-continues-nick-norton-medical-redshirt-drake/1616878001/

everyone's different but it seems helpful that a fellow NCAA player had it and was given a redshirt. 

[moytoy12]

3 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here's a recent situation at UNI that sounds somewhat similar to Fred's situation.  The UNI player received a medical redshirt.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/college/northern-iowa/uni-panthers/2019/07/02/missouri-valley-basketball-uni-austin-phyfe-illness-continues-nick-norton-medical-redshirt-drake/1616878001/

A little bit more information on Phyfe's situation:  https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/uni-panthers/austin-phyfe-uni-basketball-vasovagal-syncope-recovery-2019-2020-season-20190618

Apparently, Phyfe was fully practicing in late February for the year he received the medical redshirt. 

[Pistol]

Just now, wgstl said:

The foot thing was just the most common injury i could think of.  The point was more so if you could practice you could play.  

As for the other thing, this is true.  This is in line with what im saying.  If they dont know, yet, they shouldnt have him practicing. 

They have a tough balance to strike. What has been reported about his condition says that he's basically 100% in short stretches. He sits out certain drills and goes in others. That to me doesn't sound like "game ready". It'd be weird to have him for like a quarter of a game.

Plus, they still haven't said whether having him go full tilt could have deleterious long-term effects on his health. I'm not sure whether they'll ever really know that. Fred might have to make a determination based on the best information the doctors give him, whether the risk of some long-term issues is worth playing. He has to do what's best for him, and I expect the coaches are going to respect a player's long-term health over any short-term benefit of having him available.

I just don't think they have definitive information yet that has made the doctors say he needs to shut it down for the year or whether he's cleared. I'm hoping we find out soon. In the meantime, he's probably trying to stay in shape and focused.

[wgstl]

5 minutes ago, Pistol said:

They have a tough balance to strike. What has been reported about his condition says that he's basically 100% in short stretches. He sits out certain drills and goes in others. That to me doesn't sound like "game ready". It'd be weird to have him for like a quarter of a game.

Plus, they still haven't said whether having him go full tilt could have deleterious long-term effects on his health. I'm not sure whether they'll ever really know that. Fred might have to make a determination based on the best information the doctors give him, whether the risk of some long-term issues is worth playing. He has to do what's best for him, and I expect the coaches are going to respect a player's long-term health over any short-term benefit of having him available.

I just don't think they have definitive information yet that has made the doctors say he needs to shut it down for the year or whether he's cleared. I'm hoping we find out soon. In the meantime, he's probably trying to stay in shape and focused.

well said.  This is a rare and interesting situation even for coaches and medical staff.  No one is too sure what to do it sounds like. 

[dennis_w]

I think a controlled scrimmage practice situation is much different than a game. a competent physician should be able to write a report discussing the differences and why a player could practice and not play in a game without the controls a scrimmage would allow.imho

[wgstl]

11 minutes ago, dennis_w said:

I think a controlled scrimmage practice situation is much different than a game. a competent physician should be able to write a report discussing the differences and why a player could practice and not play in a game without the controls a scrimmage would allow.imho

if thats whats happening.  Ive only heard "practice", wasn't clear as to just certain shooting drills or what.

[HoosierPal]

27 minutes ago, wgstl said:

if thats whats happening.  Ive only heard "practice", wasn't clear as to just certain shooting drills or what.

Coach Tate said they monitor his ‘action time’ in practice. That doesn’t help much but that is what he said. 

[Sheltiedave]

Having read about the severity of his symptoms, which are similar to my friend’s, I would doubt he plays a season at all.

My friend stopped running, which is a less taxing activity than D1 basketball. The rapid onset of pain and swelling, the body’s inability to scavenge and prevent the buildup of lactic acidosis in the leg muscles, is often the end of vigorous activity.

Ford and company have to recruit like Fred will not be back. We have seen this before, multiple times, with varied medical issues.

Gotze is a perfect example for myopathy. Before he was diagnosed, he was tagged as the German footballer of the century. Now, he has markedly changed his style, went from a dominant wing to an attacking midfielder, and plays markedly fewer minutes, and his bouts are less severe than Fred’s. Time will tell, but the outcomes I have seen/read are muted successes at best.

[Old guy]

2 hours ago, Pistol said:

I think they're going to defer to the team doctor(s) on this one instead of finding some crooked Dr. Nick to sign off on whatever.

It's good to have strong relationships with your team doctors.

Pistol, do not put these guys down. They have a bona fide medical backgrounds and training, but their real area of expertise is to go into the stand and testify backing up their points of view. Some of these guys are very tough opponents to have in a law case.

What they are currently doing with Thatch is figuring out the level of exertion he can tolerate given specific treatments. This is something that cannot be done overnight. They need time to sort this out.

[moytoy12]

2 minutes ago, Old guy said:

What they are currently doing with Thatch is figuring out the level of exertion he can tolerate given specific treatments. This is something that cannot be done overnight. They need time to sort this out.

Thanks, Old Guy.  This makes a lot of sense in terms of the practice v. playing decision.  Also, if they can't find the right "mix", then it potentially supports the notion that it is a season ending illness 

[Quality Is Job 1]

1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

Thanks, Old Guy.  This makes a lot of sense in terms of the practice v. playing decision.  Also, if they can't find the right "mix", then it potentially supports the notion that it is a season ending illness 

I pray that it's not a career-ending condition.

[Old guy]

I will join my prayers to yours.

[moytoy12]

3 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I pray that it's not a career-ending condition.

Agreed. 

[Band Legend]

6 hours ago, Sheltiedave said:

Having read about the severity of his symptoms, which are similar to my friend’s, I would doubt he plays a season at all.

My friend stopped running, which is a less taxing activity than D1 basketball. The rapid onset of pain and swelling, the body’s inability to scavenge and prevent the buildup of lactic acidosis in the leg muscles, is often the end of vigorous activity.

Ford and company have to recruit like Fred will not be back. We have seen this before, multiple times, with varied medical issues.

Gotze is a perfect example for myopathy. Before he was diagnosed, he was tagged as the German footballer of the century. Now, he has markedly changed his style, went from a dominant wing to an attacking midfielder, and plays markedly fewer minutes, and his bouts are less severe than Fred’s. Time will tell, but the outcomes I have seen/read are muted successes at best.

Just curious, how do you know his bouts are less serious than Fred's?

[Sheltiedave]

His bouts were less severe, and more amenable to medical management.

This is via two German friends who are soccer coaches in the region, and others who are in the myopathy community. My friend on the Western Slopes obsesses over these cases, and like most OCD genetic patients, knows the progressions and varied treatments intimately - he is living it. Gotze’s case has been fairly well documented via all his leg injuries, and his marked decline from a world class striker to a serviceable part time midfielder.

Gotze has had untold moneys thrown at his treatment, as his club has sunk millions into his contract. His managed recovery has gotten him to 70% of what he was, but the 30% reduction takes him from world class, national team, league all star, best on team, starter, to part timer.

For Fred, this is taking him from French level to below Bell level on his ability to expend energy and fully recover, and it is in his legs, the worst area for the genetic condition to express in an athlete.

[Old guy]

Sheltie Dave, I understand your concern and your interest in the Gotze case. Yes, it is tragical and it has cost a lot of money to get him back to play part time. However, you must keep in mind that all mitochondrial problems are not the same. The mitochondria is a very complex component of the cells, and the actual genetic flaw causing it to fail, or to lose effectiveness to some substandard degree can be located at many different levels. Of course, the mitochondria do not have 100% failures in function for this would cause rapid death, so what you have is a slow process with many points of entry (genetic flaws) and probably a whole lot more other issues that we really have no idea what they may be. This is NOT a one size fits all set of diseases, there is variation in both the origin of the flaw and the treatment. And, most importantly, we really do not know all the ins and outs involved.

So, different people may react differently in terms of symptoms, in exercise tolerance, and in response to treatment. Like I said before, to get a good handle on Thatch, what he can and cannot do, will take time and effort. It is possible that he will be able to play full games, but not likely that this will be the outcome, at least not in my personal opinion. I think Fred will eventually need to be advised to consider a change in careers to something sedentary, like accounting, but I am fairly certain that neither Fred nor the team are anywhere close to this stage. I do believe he deserves a full chance of therapy adjustments to see how much he can do. At this time, however, we are nowhere close to this endpoint.

Personally I hate to see something like this happening to anyone. As I said I will pray for Fred.

[Old guy]

It is the 12th of February and Thatch has not been seen in the court playing yet. This could be due to a number of different developments during practice:

1. Thatch's endurance in practice has been improving steadily with changes in treatment, etc. This means that there is the  hope in the team that he will be able to play significant minutes next season. How many minutes, I cannot guess. How much of his prior ability he will be able to use, I also cannot guess.

2. Thatch endurance in practice is not progressing beyond a certain level which  I cannot guess either. This means that next season he may be at best called from the bench when the circumstances of the game require it. He might be used as relief for other players or to plug a significant defense gap for a certain (not long) amount of time.

3. Thatch has not progressed in practice beyond a certain (limited) number of minutes despite changes of supplements and support therapy. This means the coach will have to have a serious talk with him about his future.

I have seen Thatch at the end of the line giving high fives to the starters in games. He moves freely and smiles, he seems happy. I assume he would not be this happy if he was not showing progress during practice (this is my assumption, not a fact). Therefore I think it is probable that we will see Thatch playing significant minutes next season. This is an educated guess based upon medical experience and disability experience, it cannot be considered a fact.