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Teams can point to games throughout the schedule that are important games, but wins over Auburn and Dayton would have us ranked and clearly in the discussion for the tournament with a decent seed.  When you lose by 6 and 2 to two teams that have been talked about as potential elite 8 or even final 4 teams and you clearly could have won the games If you were even just DECENT at one of the most elementary aspects of the game it’s very frustrating.

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We shot our avg. Being 349th out of 351 teams isn’t a good argument. We could have made 6-10, out shot our average and only miss 4, but we missed 17.  We shoot more than most teams which actually makes it that much worse to be so horrible. Yes, this has been a topic for a long time, but ignoring it won’t make it better.  It’s going to be like this at least another year too.  Unless you’re a blue blood it’s very hard to make the tournament and this school has only made the tournament 3 straight years ONE TIME if I remember correctly.  Consistently making the dance is what elevates a program and helps in recruiting.  Those two things feed off each other.  If you keep projecting, many great things can happen: Better free throw shooting wins more games, helps you make the dance, helps to recruit elite players and sustain the growth of the program.  The notoriety of the basketball program goes global and some kid in a third world country sees the Billikens win the National Championship and decides he wants to go to school here. That same kid later makes the greatest discovery known to man and saves our planet from certain destruction.  See these free throws matter.

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finally crunched the numbies.  french and goodwin are 81/188 (43%) from the FT line.  rest of team is 174/256 (68%).  if you took away half of french and goodwin's attempts, and gave half of what's left to the rest of the team (41/94 for F&G, 206/303 for urrybody else), we'd have hit 247 FT vs 255 as is.  so you say, that's 8 fewer points.  however...

french and goodwin have taken 424 shots, against 188 FT (2.25/1 FGA/FTA).  rest of the team has taken 654 shots, vs 256 FT (2.55/1 FGA/FTA).  relative to FGs taken, the rest of the team actually gets to the line more often than french and goodwin.  or french and goodwin miss a SH!TLOAD of front ends.  i doubt the rest of the team is taking more contact than goodwin and french, the refs just won't call all fouls against those two, because it happens so much.

i like goodwin and french taking what the offense gives them, and giving guys like perkins, weaver and yuri a few more perimeter shots.  goodwin and french rebound offensively better than anyone, we're still going to get our second chances.  and if they come down w/ that O rebound, go right back up every time.  we get fouled on those putbacks, so be it.  but the drives and post ups where they're taking heavy contact, reducing their chances of making the shot and then taking fruitless free throws, really add up over the course of a game.

i hate simplifying the games of talents like goodwin and french so much.  but i'm honestly surprised (knock on wood) one or both of them haven't been injured by mixing it up so much.  i'm absolutely abusing those two all over the court, all game long if i'm the opposing coach.  it's a no-brainer.  the only downside to them taking less free throws is less foul trouble for the other guys.  short of targeting somebody like toppin with four fouls at the end of last game, i'll take the extra chances for our other guys.

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59 minutes ago, almaman said:

on topic ? when French got that extra shot from guy stepping in lane early for his second does that count as 3 shots or 2 in his stats? not often does one see 2 0-3 FT plays for same team in same game.

It's not a shot if he misses. 

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Jimbofive, I’m not a math whiz but help me understand this.  French and Goodwin are 81/188 and the rest of the team is 174/256.  If you take away half of French’s amd Goodwins attempts at the same percentage they shoot then their line would look like 40/94 and if you give those 94 attempts to the rest of the team and they make the same percentage they shoot it would look like 238/350 and our total points off free throws would be 278 points instead of 255.  If you use the same French/Goodwin totals of 40/94 and only give the rest of the team half of those attempts you pulled from French and Goodwin instead of the full 94 you would give the rest of the team 32/47  at their same % they shoot for a total of 206/303 for the rest of the team and a total of 246/397 for a total of 246 points and 62% clip...I think lol.  The real problem is the worst shooters get the most attempts which we all know. Correct me if I’m wrong.  I’m pretty used to being corrected lol.

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This may be more relevant :  If you maintain the exact amount of attempts for French/Goodwin and the rest of the team but just increase the French/Goodwin percentages it would look like this, not considering extra attempts gained from making the front end of one and ones.

50% 94/188 and 174/256 = 268/444

55% 103/188 and 174/255 = 277/444

60% 113/188 and 174/255 = 287/444

65% 122/188 and 174/255 = 296/444

68% 128/188 and 174/255 =302/444

Thats anywhere from 13-47 more points just from French and Goodwin not counting extra attempts from made one and ones. That’s nearly 1-3 points per game average and it’s still shooting no better than a very mediocre rate. 

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6 hours ago, Spoonball18 said:

The thread is titled FREE THROWS.  The topic had been beaten to death by 11 posts since it was started.  That being said, as a fan since the late 80’s , and having witnessed the issues of bad free throw shooting the past couple of years I am sure it’s been discussed over and over again.  There is always going to be a handful of plays made or not made in any game that can make a difference, but for all of the things we did or didn’t do, the fact is we didn’t go 7-17 at the line.  We went 20-37 and missed 17 (not counting the front end of 1&1’s we could have had a opportunity to make).  In a thread titled FREE THROWS, we now know that missed free throws aren’t supposed to be discussed.

Sure, the thread may be titled "Free Throws," but it's not like it was started years ago and every post of that topic goes in it perpetually, like some kind of customer service forum.  Not only was the thread started just yesterday, but there has been at least one other thread about free-throw shooting this season, and the OP knows it.  And the poor free-throw shooting has been mentioned and/or discussed in many other threads (as you said).

5 hours ago, Spoonball18 said:

French, Goodwin, and even Collins all need to be better.  All 3 could go down as some of the best players in the modern era by the time they graduate.  French and Goodwin are costing themselves a opportunity to be first team A10 or even higher accolades.  You would think they would try anything at this point.  Maybe they are, but when they miss they miss badly. It’s one thing to have it draw iron and pop out, circle a couple times and spin out...it’s another to completely miss or be off center by a foot.  Free throw shooting is one of the first things we did in elementary school.  How can someone who spends hours in the gym miss so badly?  

I really don't think that a poor FT percentage by itself will keep either Goodwin or French off of the all-conference first team, though it's a fair point that better free-throw shooting would increase their scoring averages.

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5 hours ago, Spoonball18 said:

We shot our avg. Being 349th out of 351 teams isn’t a good argument. We could have made 6-10, out shot our average and only miss 4, but we missed 17.  We shoot more than most teams which actually makes it that much worse to be so horrible. Yes, this has been a topic for a long time, but ignoring it won’t make it better.  It’s going to be like this at least another year too.  Unless you’re a blue blood it’s very hard to make the tournament and this school has only made the tournament 3 straight years ONE TIME if I remember correctly.  Consistently making the dance is what elevates a program and helps in recruiting.  Those two things feed off each other.  If you keep projecting, many great things can happen: Better free throw shooting wins more games, helps you make the dance, helps to recruit elite players and sustain the growth of the program.  The notoriety of the basketball program goes global and some kid in a third world country sees the Billikens win the National Championship and decides he wants to go to school here. That same kid later makes the greatest discovery known to man and saves our planet from certain destruction.  See these free throws matter.

Whether we discuss it or ignore it in this forum, it will not improve (or worsen) French's and Goodwin's FT percentage.

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5 minutes ago, Spoonball18 said:

I believe there should be a new forum where people bring up topics and nobody should comment.   It should just be a simple title, like a headline, no body, no other text...just a simple one line thought with no discussion.  It would be riveting!

I can't figure out why you're maintaining this line of thought.  Who has told you that you cannot and must not post on this topic, be it in this thread or different threads?  Still, some people will feel like it's beating a dead horse, and I think that's a fair point.

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Many of us have watched countless horrendous free throw attempts by SLU over the past few seasons.  We all agonize over it and sometimes become numb to it.  The fans aren’t the only ones who bring it up.  Coach Ford will acknowledge the fact we suck, every single tv broadcast mentions it, Rammer and Earl comment on it, and yet it’s beating a dead horse.  On one hand I get it.  There’s nothing that discussing it will do to change it but it’s a major problem moving forward if this team has aspirations of impressing enough people to make the tournament short of another magical run.  I guess my main argument is that If someone is tired of discussing it, hearing about it etc...don’t click on the thread that was started to discuss that particular topic.  Not being rude, just saying this is designed for fans to rant, rave, and discuss all things SLU.

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9 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I can't figure out why you're maintaining this line of thought.  Who has told you that you cannot and must not post on this topic, be it in this thread or different threads?  Still, some people will feel like it's beating a dead horse, and I think that's a fair point.

I take it back; I think I do know what's going on.  This thread was started by the poster formerly known as Glorydays2013 and TFord and TRavs — and who is on a post limit — and now that Clocktoweraccords2004 can't post anymore for the interim, "new" poster Spoonball18 is propping up the thread — and even getting some Good Post reactions (for now).  As ACE would say, 🤔

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3 hours ago, jimbofive said:

finally crunched the numbies.  french and goodwin are 81/188 (43%) from the FT line.  rest of team is 174/256 (68%).  if you took away half of french and goodwin's attempts, and gave half of what's left to the rest of the team (41/94 for F&G, 206/303 for urrybody else), we'd have hit 247 FT vs 255 as is.  so you say, that's 8 fewer points.  however...

french and goodwin have taken 424 shots, against 188 FT (2.25/1 FGA/FTA).  rest of the team has taken 654 shots, vs 256 FT (2.55/1 FGA/FTA).  relative to FGs taken, the rest of the team actually gets to the line more often than french and goodwin.  or french and goodwin miss a SH!TLOAD of front ends.  i doubt the rest of the team is taking more contact than goodwin and french, the refs just won't call all fouls against those two, because it happens so much.

i like goodwin and french taking what the offense gives them, and giving guys like perkins, weaver and yuri a few more perimeter shots.  goodwin and french rebound offensively better than anyone, we're still going to get our second chances.  and if they come down w/ that O rebound, go right back up every time.  we get fouled on those putbacks, so be it.  but the drives and post ups where they're taking heavy contact, reducing their chances of making the shot and then taking fruitless free throws, really add up over the course of a game.

i hate simplifying the games of talents like goodwin and french so much.  but i'm honestly surprised (knock on wood) one or both of them haven't been injured by mixing it up so much.  i'm absolutely abusing those two all over the court, all game long if i'm the opposing coach.  it's a no-brainer.  the only downside to them taking less free throws is less foul trouble for the other guys.  short of targeting somebody like toppin with four fouls at the end of last game, i'll take the extra chances for our other guys.

This pretty much nails it.

This TEAM generally doesn't have a Free Throw issue. Goodwin and French have Free Throw issues, and they happen to be our 2 best players and the 2 guys taking most of those shots. 

I think when you break it down, those 2 have very different issues. French has always been bad at the line (36% as a freshman, 35% as a soph, and 34% this year). His form is bad, his rhythm is bad, and he looks uncomfortable. To me, this is more technical than mental.

Goodwin, on the other hand, shot 69% as a freshman, 51% last year, and 53% this year. Sure, the freshman sample size is a bit smaller, but it's not enough to explain the drastic decline. I think the reason why he's shot poorly over the past 2 seasons is that we've been pretty successful and, consequently, are in more high-pressure games. To me this signifies that the issue is more mental than technical, especially considering Goodwin's mid-range game is excellent. That's not to say there isn't a technical component, I just don't think it's the main issue.

Both of those problems require very different solutions. It will be interesting to see how both of those issues are addressed during the off season. 

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Quality Is Job 1, I’m not sure how to take that exactly, lol... I will just say that as someone who enjoys reading the thoughts of the posters on this forum. and not really ever posting anything—-when I finally decided to chime in on a thread titled Free Throws I decided to comment about said subject.  Immediately after making my first post it was met with “new posters bringing up old topics” and “beating a dead horse” comments.  Forgive me for not knowing the unwritten rule of not commenting on the subject that the thread was about.  Yeah, I can be a little bit of a smart:$$.  I don’t know who these posters are or even which ones I agree with or not—-but for the record I am just a fan making comments about some of the most horrendous free throw shooting I have ever seen. 

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19 minutes ago, willie said:

I am watching the Missouri Alabama game. Missouri has made 31 straight free throws. The crowd is going crazy at how bad some of the calls are. Even the announcers are questioning some of the calls. 

31 out of 31 for the game.................wow

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15 minutes ago, willie said:

I am watching the Missouri Alabama game. Missouri has made 31 straight free throws. The crowd is going crazy at how bad some of the calls are. Even the announcers are questioning some of the calls. 

This is really not about the Bills but basketball in general. Alabama beat Missouri by 14 points. They showed their shot chart. They took zero intermediate shots. All threes or shots in the paint. They are averaging in the eighties. Smart teams will play this way so defending the three becomes more important. I do think we give up too many open threes. 

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2 hours ago, Bizziken said:

This pretty much nails it.

This TEAM generally doesn't have a Free Throw issue. Goodwin and French have Free Throw issues, and they happen to be our 2 best players and the 2 guys taking most of those shots. 

I think when you break it down, those 2 have very different issues. French has always been bad at the line (36% as a freshman, 35% as a soph, and 34% this year). His form is bad, his rhythm is bad, and he looks uncomfortable. To me, this is more technical than mental.

Goodwin, on the other hand, shot 69% as a freshman, 51% last year, and 53% this year. Sure, the freshman sample size is a bit smaller, but it's not enough to explain the drastic decline. I think the reason why he's shot poorly over the past 2 seasons is that we've been pretty successful and, consequently, are in more high-pressure games. To me this signifies that the issue is more mental than technical, especially considering Goodwin's mid-range game is excellent. That's not to say there isn't a technical component, I just don't think it's the main issue.

Both of those problems require very different solutions. It will be interesting to see how both of those issues are addressed during the off season. 

These last two seasons resemble Goodwin's free throw shooting in high school.  The question is how in the world did he make 69% of his free throws his freshman year? That came out of nowhere.

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Maybe he was more disciplined and focused being freshman and due to limelight of the S2 BS?

Whatever it is the 2 guys pain is as palpable as any I've felt in 50+ years of perfectly good time wasted following team sports. Again a radical solution but fair in my mind let team take ball out of bounds on a foul if it would like. Save time too.

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