GDT: Pukin', Dukin' and Nod

[billikenblue]

30 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

Imo loss was on ford as much as anyone.  Not much made sense or even seemed to give us a chance.   Yes collins having a horrible game.  So you bench him and play hightower for extended time?   Anyone think that was going to be a success?

Then you put hargrove, the reputed worst defender on the team,  in to guard weathers?   Why would you think that would be a success?

How about continuing to give the ball to French when no one was particularly shooting well so the dukes could just send him to the line.   At best he makes one and then the dukes come down and score 2 or 3.   Yeah that will shrink the score gap right?   

A miserable game but didnt seem to me we gave ourselves much of a chance to win.   Goodnight.  I need to sleep on this one. 

Nailed it Roy..Ford was outcoached and seemed out of sync himself. 

[glazedandconfused]

It’s kind of contradictory to state that everyone on the team had a bad game and it’s Ford fault. I mean what is the lineup you would’ve liked to see with 5 guys (or even 3 for that matter) who played well tonight. 

[wgstl]

1 minute ago, glazedandconfused said:

It’s kind of contradictory to state that everyone on the team had a bad game and it’s Ford fault. I mean what is the lineup you would’ve liked to see with 5 guys (or even 3 for that matter) who played well tonight. 

It’s not so much the lineup as it was who was guarding who at certain times that was very questionable .

 

ford wasn’t great but I’m still not convinced he was the reason. I mean, look at how many fast breaks we had that ended up scoreless, how many TOs we had that were unforced, missed 3s etc. he can only do so much 

[billikenbill]

1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

Well, at least we didn’t lose to Brown tonight like URI?

Belmont losing at home to SIUe, down 6 with 1:30 to go.Zeke Moore with 14. I think SIUe is in the Bottom 10 in all the rankings this year, having lost at home to Chicago State. Let's go, Bruins.

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, billikenbill said:

Belmont losing at home to SIUe, down 6 with 1:30 to go.Zeke Moore with 14. I think SIUe is in the Bottom 10 in all the rankings this year, having lost at home to Chicago State. Let's go, Bruins.

jfc 

[billikenbill]

Belmont goes down 79-69. 1-2-20, a day in SLU basketball history which will live in infamy.

[willie]

9 minutes ago, wgstl said:

It’s not so much the lineup as it was who was guarding who at certain times that was very questionable .

 

ford wasn’t great but I’m still not convinced he was the reason. I mean, look at how many fast breaks we had that ended up scoreless, how many TOs we had that were unforced, missed 3s etc. he can only do so much 

It’s really easy to criticize a coach and pick out the bad. Sure Hargrove needed help on Weaver, but from where . Ford didn’t miss all the throws. I think this game showed how much we miss Jimerson. He opens up the floor. When things aren’t going well a coach tries to change things. See Hightower. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. One of the things I like about Ford is he will try different things when it’s not working well. Tonight it didn’t work. 

 

 

 

[mrjoelabs]

The belmont loss to SIUE really stings.  We may not have been good....see maryville and Bethune. Kstate and Auburn games were our best...went 1-1

[HoosierPal]

23 minutes ago, mrjoelabs said:

The belmont loss to SIUE really stings.  We may not have been good....see maryville and Bethune. Kstate and Auburn games were our best...went 1-1

Belmont was a Q3 win prior to tonight.  I doubt it they fall to Q4 solely on this game.  But the hopes of them moving up to Q2 are gone.

[Littlebill]

1 hour ago, billikenbill said:

Belmont goes down 79-69. 1-2-20, a day in SLU basketball history which will live in infamy.

Look on the bright side everyone, at least we aren’t Belmont

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, willie said:

It’s really easy to criticize a coach and pick out the bad. Sure Hargrove needed help on Weaver, but from where . Ford didn’t miss all the throws. I think this game showed how much we miss Jimerson. He opens up the floor. When things aren’t going well a coach tries to change things. See Hightower. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. One of the things I like about Ford is he will try different things when it’s not working well. Tonight it didn’t work. 

 

 

 

Willie.   Don't even try.  Rational thought is not present tonight. It may return tomorrow, not sure.  Tonight, though, blame is 100% on Coach Ford.  Just like after our bad losses and play last year, it's all Coach Ford's fault for us being bad FT shooters, for being poor shooters generally, for not teaching a proper offense, for our poor PG play...  If only we had a head coach who knows how to play PG and shoot FT's!!   

Yes, our record of 11-2 was truly all smoke and mirrors.   We played no one good.  We beat no one good.   All the bad teams actually made Coach Ford look good for a short while - but we all know that is/was all wrong.  Maybe we should fire Coach Ford and replace him with Drew Diener?  Antony Bonner?  

[RiseAndGrind]

8 hours ago, willie said:

It’s really easy to criticize a coach and pick out the bad. Sure Hargrove needed help on Weaver, but from where . Ford didn’t miss all the throws. I think this game showed how much we miss Jimerson. He opens up the floor. When things aren’t going well a coach tries to change things. See Hightower. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. One of the things I like about Ford is he will try different things when it’s not working well. Tonight it didn’t work. 

 

 

 

Ford has to be somewhat responsible for the horrendous play, including free throw shooting. 
slept on it and I’m still not over it.

[slufan13]

Part of me thinks last night was just one of those worst case scenario nights. Part of me thinks it showed that our weaknesses and the loss of Jimerson will be magnified in A10 play. It's probably somewhere in between. I don't think we were as good as our record and I do think we're gonna struggle in the grind of the conference, but we won't play as poorly as we did last night 

 

We have to start making free throws. Blame whoever you want, but they have to start going in

[RiseAndGrind]

8 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Willie.   Don't even try.  Rational thought is not present tonight. It may return tomorrow, not sure.  Tonight, though, blame is 100% on Coach Ford.  Just like after our bad losses and play last year, it's all Coach Ford's fault for us being bad FT shooters, for being poor shooters generally, for not teaching a proper offense, for our poor PG play...  If only we had a head coach who knows how to play PG and shoot FT's!!   

Yes, our record of 11-2 was truly all smoke and mirrors.   We played no one good.  We beat no one good.   All the bad teams actually made Coach Ford look good for a short while - but we all know that is/was all wrong.  Maybe we should fire Coach Ford and replace him with Drew Diener?  Antony Bonner?  

literally not a single person said this. 

[Clock_Tower]

Here's my point:   summed up in the attached box score.

 

Road league games (whether against VCU/UD or St. Joe - or anyone in between such as Duquesne) require upper class leadership.  Our defense was terrible (Thatch would have helped) and our perimeter shooting was terrible (Jimerson and Thatch would have helped).

https://stltoday.sports.gracenote.com/basketball/ncaab/boxscore/1010188

1.  Has French may have had his worst game of the year.   -  37 minutes and only 8 points shooting 2 for 8 and 4 of 10 from FT line  Not acceptable.

2.  Yes, Bell could not handle Duquesne - Coach Ford knew that and played him only 11 minutes - and yet he scored nearly as many points as Has - 6 points making 2 of 5 from the floor and both of his FTs.

3.  Perkins is a new face - though he has 2 years of prior JUCO experience = and he too laid an egg while shooting 3 of 10 and 0 for 1 from FT line for 6 points - same as Bell.  Especially wit the loss of Thatch and Jimerson, we need Perkins to step up - and he didn't.

4.   Jacobs, our starting 2 guard went 1 for 8 for 2 points - not going to win many games with that production - especially when our PG does not score.  Not going to win many games like this - even home games against Maryville.  Sit Jacobs?  Yes, Coach Ford would like to do that - and can largely be said to have done this by playing him only 19 minutes -- that means he sat on the bench for over half the game (21 minutes).   But who does Ford play?  Big Three Thatch? Jimerson?  More time to Hargrove and Weaver? That's our problem:  we cannot sit Jacobs when we are already without Thatch and Jimerson.

5.  We all love Yuri.  He makes those around him better.   Yes, generally but no one looked good last night. Does Yuri get the blame for Jacobs only scoring 2 points?   and Perkins only 6 points? and Has only 8 points? At the same time, Yuri's total offense consisted of him making only 1 point shot all night -  not good enough - especially without Thatch and Jimerson. Yuri attempted only 3 attempted shots all night during 26 minutes and no FTs - sorry but we lack the talent to be able to afford to play such a one dimensional player.

6.  Hargrove still has a lot to learn.  We all know that there was a reason he did not play most of this season.  Last night, he played 15 minutes due to the loss of Thatch and Jimerson, played relatively well offensively scoring 5 of 8 shots for 11 points - but his defense is still not ready.

7.  Weaver played  29 minutes - again, more minutes than he deserved - but who else is Coach Ford to play?  Weaver's defense was not good.   I get it.  Should Ford have played Perkins more than his 22 minutes?  Should Ford have played Jacobs more than his 19 minutes?  We missed both Thatch and Jimerson. - though 3 of 6 from 3 point line, no FTs and 29 minutes off the bench is not great - but he is a bench player - and sure better than what Jacobs and Perkins did.

8.  Hightower played 7 minutes and took no shots. I give credit to Coach Ford for trying something different - as none of our others could stop the Duquesne dribble penetration.  

[kshoe]

We've played 4 games since Jimerson's injury and looked bad in 3 of them. Unfortunately, I think this is the new reality of how this season is going to go.

[billikenbill]

4 minutes ago, kshoe said:

We've played 4 games since Jimerson's injury and looked bad in 3 of them. Unfortunately, I think this is the new reality of how this season is going to go.

Have to agree. Now, just hoping for .500 in the league and 20 wins regular season, maybe they figure something out late and repeat in the A10 tourney. Jacobs and Perkins are the guys who have to step up. Still hope for Perkins but with Jacobs, I’m not seeing it.

[Westy03]

8 minutes ago, kshoe said:

We've played 4 games since Jimerson's injury and looked bad in 3 of them. Unfortunately, I think this is the new reality of how this season is going to go.

Unfortunately I agree 

[billiken_roy]

after a restless night's sleep (yes i lose sleep over the billikens) imo, we saw last night what will happen when focus of our opponent is "stop french and goodwin".   they will beat them up make them shoot free throws or just keep them from scoring and rebounding.   i.e. someone else has to step up.   jimmerson was emerging as that guy.   the only two other outside shooters we really have that somewhat approach jimmerson's ability were weaver and jacobs.   but last night showed they arent jimmerson.  

hargrove and perkins do fine in the lane offensively but we saw the disaster they appear to be shooting threes.   the dukes gave both of them plenty of room to shoot out there.  clang and air balls.  stop.  

they begged collins to drive.   disaster.   

perkins and hargrove were horrible defensively.   so their time on the floor was likely a negative net effect.  

someone else has to step up.   if someone doesnt emerge, it will then take goodwin and french to be able to play above what can realistically be expected to overcome.   my guess is we are back to seeing the billikens somewhere around 500 in the conference unless someone steps up.   

as to ford, to absolve him from last night's trainwreck is just wrong.   granted he doesnt shoot free throws or drive to the basket and throw assist passes any longer, but he sure as hell is supposed to teach and prepare a team for every game.   last night looked to me there wasnt either.   bottom line the buck stops at the top.  

[Clock_Tower]

28 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

literally not a single person said this. 

Rise.

You have sure said a lot.  So tell us, how do you want to hold Coach Ford accountable?   What does that even mean?   I get that our FT shooting has been poor - mostly at the hand of our best 2 players - French and Goodwin.   Tell us what you would have done differently?   Are you saying that Coach Ford has not tried to increase FT shooting percentages?  That we don't practice FTs?  Is Ford teaching bad habits and technique?  

Should we sit French and Goodwin until they prove they can shoot FTs better?  Play Hankton and Bell more?   Both Hankton and Bell are better FT shooters than French.

Not play Hightower 7 minutes?   Who should have gotten those 7 minutes?   Jacobs?  Perkins? Weaver?  

How should we handle the Jacobs situation?   Sit him?   And play whom?  Weaver already played 29 minutes so you would have given more time to Perkins (3 for 10 and 0 for 4 from FT)?

Who should our defensive specialist be?  Jimerson may not have been as good defensively as Thatch, but both are better than Weaver, Perkins and Jacobs.

[NH]

47 minutes ago, kshoe said:

We've played 4 games since Jimerson's injury and looked bad in 3 of them. Unfortunately, I think this is the new reality of how this season is going to go.

Offense wasn't great against K State, either

[wgstl]

You’re going to see Perkins continue to shoot the three, because he has to prove to the defender he can shoot the three. His mid range style is best when the defenders on him, so if the defender gives him a few feet of space, his pull up shot/move isn’t as effective 

[NH]

5 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Rise.

You have sure said a lot.  So tell us, how do you want to hold Coach Ford accountable?   What does that even mean?   I get that our FT shooting has been poor - mostly at the hand of our best 2 players - French and Goodwin.   Tell us what you would have done differently?   Are you saying that Coach Ford has not tried to increase FT shooting percentages?  That we don't practice FTs?  Is Ford teaching bad habits and technique?  

Should we sit French and Goodwin until they prove they can shoot FTs better?  Play Hankton and Bell more?   Both Hankton and Bell are better FT shooters than French.

Not play Hightower 7 minutes?   Who should have gotten those 7 minutes?   Jacobs?  Perkins? Weaver?  

How should we handle the Jacobs situation?   Sit him?   And play whom?  Weaver already played 29 minutes so you would have given more time to Perkins (3 for 10 and 0 for 4 from FT)?

Who should our defensive specialist be?  Jimerson may not have been as good defensively as Thatch, but both are better than Weaver, Perkins and Jacobs.

Coaching has to do with a lot more than personnel. It was clear last night that we were getting beat in transition, because we were sending 4 guys to the glass. Ford realized this eventually, but it took him a long time.

Defensively, our high pressure man-to-man was getting beat all second half. We tried a little zone but nothing substantial. Yes, thatch would have helped, but a scheme change also could have helped. 

I bet even if you asked coach Ford he would admit he got outcoached last night. That is one of several reasons for the loss, not the only one.

[RiseAndGrind]

26 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Rise.

You have sure said a lot.  So tell us, how do you want to hold Coach Ford accountable?   What does that even mean?   I get that our FT shooting has been poor - mostly at the hand of our best 2 players - French and Goodwin.   Tell us what you would have done differently?   Are you saying that Coach Ford has not tried to increase FT shooting percentages?  That we don't practice FTs?  Is Ford teaching bad habits and technique?  

Should we sit French and Goodwin until they prove they can shoot FTs better?  Play Hankton and Bell more?   Both Hankton and Bell are better FT shooters than French.

Not play Hightower 7 minutes?   Who should have gotten those 7 minutes?   Jacobs?  Perkins? Weaver?  

How should we handle the Jacobs situation?   Sit him?   And play whom?  Weaver already played 29 minutes so you would have given more time to Perkins (3 for 10 and 0 for 4 from FT)?

Who should our defensive specialist be?  Jimerson may not have been as good defensively as Thatch, but both are better than Weaver, Perkins and Jacobs.

First, you said everyone was solely blaming Ford. That people were assigning 100% blame to Ford.  That simply isn’t true and you know it. 
 

Secondly, as I stated early, I don’t know how to “hold Ford accountable.” My frustration levels have maxed out. But it’s obvious he sucks at teaching free throws with this team. I don’t need to argue it. The numbers are on my side. What would I do for a change? Literally anything. I don’t think it’s out of the question to make Has shoot them underhanded, for example. 
 

Also, if your big idea is to play a walk-on 6 minutes you really have a bad roster set up. 
 

NH pointed out additional issues. No need to rehash them. 

[billiken_roy]

16 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Rise.

You have sure said a lot.  So tell us, how do you want to hold Coach Ford accountable?   What does that even mean?   I get that our FT shooting has been poor - mostly at the hand of our best 2 players - French and Goodwin.   Tell us what you would have done differently?   Are you saying that Coach Ford has not tried to increase FT shooting percentages?  That we don't practice FTs?  Is Ford teaching bad habits and technique?  

Should we sit French and Goodwin until they prove they can shoot FTs better?  Play Hankton and Bell more?   Both Hankton and Bell are better FT shooters than French.

Not play Hightower 7 minutes?   Who should have gotten those 7 minutes?   Jacobs?  Perkins? Weaver?  

How should we handle the Jacobs situation?   Sit him?   And play whom?  Weaver already played 29 minutes so you would have given more time to Perkins (3 for 10 and 0 for 4 from FT)?

Who should our defensive specialist be?  Jimerson may not have been as good defensively as Thatch, but both are better than Weaver, Perkins and Jacobs.

i dont think he is teaching at all.   well unless you think "go over to that basket and shoot 100 free throws" is teaching.

sorry hightower shouldnt be put into a game like that when there is tremendous pressure to "save the day"   if coach had decided collins wasnt going to play anymore, he should have went goodwin or jacobs at the point.   

i think we have gotten the message about hankton.   

coach's job to decide of giving up all the good french brings is worth the free throws for bell.   my guess is french will normally get and/or prevent enough points to play over bell.  

while jacobs was indeed not good last night, we have seen he has enough skill that he might be able to do something to reverse the trend instead of hightower.   the hightower breakout shouldnt come in a situation like last night.  i am probably more upset about throwing him out there last night than anything.   it wasnt fair to hightower, or the team in general.   probably indeed sent a message to collins, but it might have set hightower back quite a bit as well.

there shouldnt be a need for a defensive specialist.   everyone should be a defensive specialist if they want to play.  but playing hargrove on weathers?   omg.