Bay Area Billiken Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 8:43 AM, courtside said: Team chemistry was fine for Simmons in Milwaukee. It was fine for Hernandez in NYC. It’s perfectly fine to like Herzog and appreciate his success while at the same time point out things that were not as successful. Many new coaches make changes some good, some not, some in the middle. But if the return is less successful it’s ok to point it out it out in those instances. And Whitey has a few of those too. I did not agree with Herzog trading Ted Simmons. I did not agree with Herzog trading Keith Hernandez. That was a terrible trade, one of the bar none worst in Cardinal history. While I am well aware of the reasons, I don't buy either. But I'm a lifelong Cardinal fan, and I continued to root for the Cardinals against the Brewers in the 1982 World Series and against the Pond Scum Mets when Hernandez was there. almaman likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Probably being overly picky about this, but you don't go into the Hall of Fame as a member of any team. Even if you played your entire career with just one team, you go in as a player. Nowhere on the plaque or in any of the records does it say a player is going in as a player of this team or that team. The only distinction that is made is the look of the cap. The HOF has ultimate say over what someone's hat shows, but they put a lot into the player's opinion on the subject. Some players have a hat that doesn't depict the logo of any team. These are usually guys that had careers that were so spread out that the HOF and probably the player didn't want to single out any team. Most do end up with some logo on their hat, but that logo being there doesn't mean that they went in under that team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said: I did not agree with Herzog trading Ted Simmons. I did not agree with Herzog trading Keith Hernandez. That was a terrible trade, one of the bar none worst in Cardinal history. While I am well aware of the reasons, I don't buy either. But I'm a lifelong Cardinal fan, and I continued to root for the Cardinals against the Brewers in the 1982 World Series and against the Pond Scum Mets when Hernandez was there. herzog traded hernandez when hernandez was big in illegal substances. whitey was a miller lite guy at most. just didnt fit his mindset of allowable off the field pastimes. in hindsight i totally agree with getting rid of problem children like hernandez and templeton. addition by subtraction AGB91 likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 28 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: herzog traded hernandez when hernandez was big in illegal substances. whitey was a miller lite guy at most. just didnt fit his mindset of allowable off the field pastimes. in hindsight i totally agree with getting rid of problem children like hernandez and templeton. addition by subtraction I understand your point but he put up with Porter in KC when he was an addict and even traded for him. How was Herandez different? Apparently when he got to the Mets they were able to get him righted so why not here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 44 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: herzog traded hernandez when hernandez was big in illegal substances. whitey was a miller lite guy at most. just didnt fit his mindset of allowable off the field pastimes. in hindsight i totally agree with getting rid of problem children like hernandez and templeton. addition by subtraction Trading Keith Hernandez was the nuclear option. There were other available alternatives that would have kept Hernandez on the Cardinals than going nuclear. Herzog wanted Hernandez to be George Brett. They are too different personalities. I also think Keith Hernandez should be in the Cardinal Hall of Fame. He was the 1979 NL Batting Champion and Co-MVP, an outstanding Gold Glove First Baseman, who defined the position, and the best all around player on the 1982 World Champions. Hernandez in a recent season said on KMOX that he is still considers himself a Cardinal. When the Cardinals played the Mets in the NLCS, Hernandez showed both his 1982 (STL) and 1986 (NYM) rings, saying he couldn't lose either way. As for Ted Simmons, Darrell Porter was no Ted Simmons. Porter basically had 2 good weeks as a Cardinal, albeit at the most important time of all, the 1982 NLCS and World Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, cheeseman said: I understand your point but he put up with Porter in KC when he was an addict and even traded for him. How was Herandez different? Apparently when he got to the Mets they were able to get him righted so why not here? Now I believe I had heard a rumor that Hernadez was screwing some teammate's wife so who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 you guys can say all you want, but all i know is that with hernandez, templeton and simmons they never won crap. with porter and ozzie they won. (i dont even remember who they got for simmons) herzog came to st louis to win and win he did. attendance went crazy after whitey came to town. seems to me the moves resulted in winning. hard to argue in hindsight for keeping the players that didnt win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: you guys can say all you want, but all i know is that with hernandez, templeton and simmons they never won crap. with porter and ozzie they won. (i dont even remember who they got for simmons) herzog came to st louis to win and win he did. attendance went crazy after whitey came to town. seems to me the moves resulted in winning. hard to argue in hindsight for keeping the players that didnt win. The Cardinals won the 1982 World Series with Keith Hernandez as their 1B and third place hitter. Hernandez also had one of the most important hits in Cardinal History in Game 7 of that 1982 World Series. slufanskip and Zink like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 45 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said: Trading Keith Hernandez was the nuclear option. There were other available alternatives that would have kept Hernandez on the Cardinals than going nuclear. Herzog wanted Hernandez to be George Brett. They are too different personalities. I also think Keith Hernandez should be in the Cardinal Hall of Fame. He was the 1979 NL Batting Champion and Co-MVP, an outstanding Gold Glove First Baseman, who defined the position, and the best all around player on the 1982 World Champions. Hernandez in a recent season said on KMOX that he is still considers himself a Cardinal. When the Cardinals played the Mets in the NLCS, Hernandez showed both his 1982 (STL) and 1986 (NYM) rings, saying he couldn't lose either way. As for Ted Simmons, Darrell Porter was no Ted Simmons. Porter basically had 2 good weeks as a Cardinal, albeit at the most important time of all, the 1982 NLCS and World Series. It's beyond my comprehension that Hernandez is still not yet in the Cardinals Hall of Fame. slufanskip and Bay Area Billiken like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almaman Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 48 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: you guys can say all you want, but all i know is that with hernandez, templeton and simmons they never won crap. with porter and ozzie they won. (i dont even remember who they got for simmons) herzog came to st louis to win and win he did. attendance went crazy after whitey came to town. seems to me the moves resulted in winning. hard to argue in hindsight for keeping the players that didnt win. One of my favorite live sports memories was being at the 7th game of the World Series in 1982. Doubt it would of happened without KH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Bay Area Billiken said: I did not agree with Herzog trading Ted Simmons. I did not agree with Herzog trading Keith Hernandez. That was a terrible trade, one of the bar none worst in Cardinal history. While I am well aware of the reasons, I don't buy either. But I'm a lifelong Cardinal fan, and I continued to root for the Cardinals against the Brewers in the 1982 World Series and against the Pond Scum Mets when Hernandez was there. No one liked losing possibly the best fielding 1B iMLB history and a terrific cluth hitter but what do you do when he wont stop snorting cocaine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, courtside said: It's beyond my comprehension that Hernandez is still not yet in the Cardinals Hall of Fame. 1 MVP, 5 top 21 MVP finishes and 6 GG's. In his MVP year 1979 he had an OPS of .930 with 11 HR's. That is an amazing stat. It's very ard to have a slugging over 500 with 11 HR's. He had 48 doubles and 11 triples along with 11 sb's. It's probably a top 10-15 5 year run in the history of the Cardinals. It far exceeds Scott Rolen's time as a Cardinal for example almaman, Zink, Bay Area Billiken and 1 other like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 No disputing the stats of Hernandez. Clubs dont want to trade away their core players. We did and he was. He didn’t leave town on the best terms bc of his drug problem - and Whitey kept quiet and took the heat - likely a reason he is not in Cards’ HOF. And yes, Hernadez did right his ship and had a fine career after STL while Templeton did not. Simmons also was traded, got upstaged big time in WS by Porter and was good but not as good as in STL. Not only did Porter do well for us - and was awesome for those 2 weeks in 1982 WS - but he was solid thereafter. And we did replace Hernandez as well - with Jack Clark for 1985 and 1987. And Roy is right we didn’t win w Templeton, Simmons and Hernandez. Did we lose bc of them? Yes as to Templeton but shaking things up was not a bad idea - and it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Hernandez isn't in the Cardinals HOF because he is a jerk. Simple enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said: No disputing the stats of Hernandez. Clubs dont want to trade away their core players. We did and he was. He didn’t leave town on the best terms bc of his drug problem - and Whitey kept quiet and took the heat - likely a reason he is not in Cards’ HOF. And yes, Hernadez did right his ship and had a fine career after STL while Templeton did not. Simmons also was traded, got upstaged big time in WS by Porter and was good but not as good as in STL. Not only did Porter do well for us - and was awesome for those 2 weeks in 1982 WS - but he was solid thereafter. And we did replace Hernandez as well - with Jack Clark for 1985 and 1987. And Roy is right we didn’t win w Templeton, Simmons and Hernandez. Did we lose bc of them? Yes as to Templeton but shaking things up was not a bad idea - and it worked. As stated above Hernandez won a WS w/ the Cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, slufanskip said: As stated above Hernandez won a WS w/ the Cards Yep. My bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 10 hours ago, thetorch said: Hernandez isn't in the Cardinals HOF because he is a jerk. Simple enough. I don’t know how Hernandez is as a person now but when I was a young kid I ran into him a bunch of times one year and he couldn’t have been nicer to me and my friends. He and some other players shopped at the same National as the neighborhood moms did. Well at least they played the Gorf video game there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 probably the greatest keith hernandez accomplishment - very memorable role on seinfeld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: probably the greatest keith hernandez accomplishment - very memorable role on seinfeld. Part of one of the best episodes ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, brianstl said: Part of one of the best episodes ever. Danny Tartaball and Paul O'Neil had better acting chops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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