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O T Ted Simmons in the HOF


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2 hours ago, courtside said:

Not sure he is good enough? Based on what exactly? 

In no particular order:

He is in the top 200 all time of any position player in WAR. There are six catchers in the MLB Hall of Fame with a WAR worse than Simmons. There are only 8 other catcher's with a 50 plus career WAR. All are in the Hall of Fame.

For players that played most of their career primarily as a catcher: 

2nd all time Catcher RBI's.

2nd all time Catcher Doubles.

2nd all time Catcher hits.

3rd all time Catcher games played.

7th all time among HOF Catcher Home Runs out of 14.

7th all time Catcher Batting Average.

4th all time Catcher Walks.

5th all time Catcher Runs Scored.

Top 10 in league in WAR 5 times regardless of any player's position.

Top 10 in OPS 15 times regardless of any player's position. 

His defense statistically was much better than some would think. Not great but not bad. At minimum average defensively as a catcher. 

He's clearly a Hall of Famer based on various criterias used for selection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without question, Ted Simmons is a HOF'er.  That he had to wait until age 70 is absurd, but better late than never, especially while he's still among the living.

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2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Up until the 1970s, I would agree with you. But once multiple catchers came on the scene who could hit 30 hr a year and win multiple Gold Gloves, that altered the math.

That's a pretty small list for 50 years. I get there are a few that could hit and were great defenders. However, that is a very small list so I'd still give more consideration to great defense rather than great offense. I'll take both if I can have it obviously 

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2 hours ago, courtside said:

Not sure he is good enough? Based on what exactly? 

In no particular order:

He is in the top 200 all time of any position player in WAR. There are six catchers in the MLB Hall of Fame with a WAR worse than Simmons. There are only 8 other catcher's with a 50 plus career WAR. All are in the Hall of Fame.

For players that played most of their career primarily as a catcher: 

2nd all time Catcher RBI's.

2nd all time Catcher Doubles.

2nd all time Catcher hits.

3rd all time Catcher games played.

7th all time among HOF Catcher Home Runs out of 14.

7th all time Catcher Batting Average.

4th all time Catcher Walks.

5th all time Catcher Runs Scored.

Top 10 in league in WAR 5 times regardless of any player's position.

Top 10 in OPS 15 times regardless of any player's position. 

His defense statistically was much better than some would think. Not great but not bad. At minimum average defensively as a catcher. 

He's clearly a Hall of Famer based on various criterias used for selection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do you figure 3rd all time in games played as a catcher? Without looking anything up I can name more than 2 with more games caught than Ted. Yadi, Pudge, Carter, Boone, Fisk. If I look it up there's probably quite a few more

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Rank Player (2019 Gs) G as C
1 Iván Rodríguez * 2,427
2 Carlton Fisk * 2,226
3 Bob Boone 2,225
4 Gary Carter * 2,056
5 Jason Kendall 2,025
6 Tony Peña 1,950
7 Yadier Molina (110) 1,947
8 Brad Ausmus 1,938
9 A. J. Pierzynski 1,936
10 Jim Sundberg 1,927
11 Al López * 1,918
12 Benito Santiago 1,917
13 Lance Parrish 1,818
14 Rick Ferrell * 1,806
15 Gabby Hartnett * 1,793
16 Ted Simmons * 1,771
17 Johnny Bench * 1,742
18 Ray Schalk * 1,727
19 Bill Dickey * 1,708
20 Yogi Berra * 1,699
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6 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:
Rank Player (2019 Gs) G as C
1 Iván Rodríguez * 2,427
2 Carlton Fisk * 2,226
3 Bob Boone 2,225
4 Gary Carter * 2,056
5 Jason Kendall 2,025
6 Tony Peña 1,950
7 Yadier Molina (110) 1,947
8 Brad Ausmus 1,938
9 A. J. Pierzynski 1,936
10 Jim Sundberg 1,927
11 Al López * 1,918
12 Benito Santiago 1,917
13 Lance Parrish 1,818
14 Rick Ferrell * 1,806
15 Gabby Hartnett * 1,793
16 Ted Simmons * 1,771
17 Johnny Bench * 1,742
18 Ray Schalk * 1,727
19 Bill Dickey * 1,708
20 Yogi Berra * 1,699

I'm not 100% sure on this but I believe that list doesn't count postseason games. 

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50 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I'm not 100% sure on this but I believe that list doesn't count postseason games. 

I perhaps wasn't clear. Above the list, I said players who played their career primarily as a catcher. Simmons played in 2,456 regular season games which is 3rd all time for players who played most of their career as a catcher. (Many of course on the old Busch turf) Rodriguez and Fisk are 1 and 2 in that group.

 

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1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

That's a pretty small list for 50 years. I get there are a few that could hit and were great defenders. However, that is a very small list so I'd still give more consideration to great defense rather than great offense. I'll take both if I can have it obviously 

There's room for guys who weren't mashers at the catcher position just like there's room at say, shortstop.  But once the math changed to 60% hitting/40% fielding, you had to be an all-time defender to overcome the math. Unfortunately for Boone and Sundberg, the two best defensive catchers of the last 50 years - Pudge, Bench - were also dangerous hitters. 

There's only 19 catchers in the Hall covering a period of 130 years. The competition for getting in is incredibly stiff.

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46 minutes ago, courtside said:

I perhaps wasn't clear. Above the list, I said players who played their career primarily as a catcher. Simmons played in 2,456 regular season games which is 3rd all time for players who played most of their career as a catcher. (Many of course on the old Busch turf) Rodriguez and Fisk are 1 and 2 in that group.

 

So you're including games not played as catcher. 

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1 minute ago, 3star_recruit said:

There's room for guys who weren't mashers at the catcher position just like there's room at say, shortstop.  But once the math changed to 60% hitting/40% fielding, you had to be an all-time defender to overcome the math. Unfortunately for Boone and Sundberg, the two best defensive catchers of the last 50 years - Pudge, Bench - were also dangerous hitters. 

There's only 19 catchers in the Hall covering a period of 130 years. The competition for getting in is incredibly stiff.

The best defensive catcher of the last 50 years is Yadi. 

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There are a variety of ways of getting into the Hall of Fame. Longevity is going to help Yadi. For example, he will likely surpass 2,000 hits next season. There are only 7 other catchers in history with 2,000. And yep you guessed it, all 7 are in the Hall of Fame. (Simmons 2nd on the list) These types of longevity stats are the things that can put a player over the top in addition to defense, other offensive categories, intangibles. I left off award stuff with Simmons, 8 time all star etc... But those things can add to someone's case. 

 

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Again, I was young and don't remember Ted Simmons in his peak years.  I remember more his later years as a Cardinal and then Milwaukee.  I am probably biased by watching Simmons get traded and then listening to Whitey Herzog explain why he traded him.   After being gone, I never saw Simmons really play well.  Certainly, he was  not a Cardinal killer.  And much of my thoughts and comments are based upon what others have said about Simmons and my review of stats/highlights, etc. 

With that said, if it so obvious how good Ted Simmons was, then why was he not voted into the Hall sooner?  Good hitter who racked up a lot of years and a lot of games. Excellent hitter and played a long time.  248 HRs is impressive - though over 20+ years, the number per season is not as impressive.  Yes, Busch Stadium was then huge - a graveyard.  Yes, other ballparks were long as well.   But here's why he might belong, instead, in the Hall of Very Good

Weak arm with a very low figure of throwing runners out

Not the best defensively - a lot of passed balls

I don't recall anyone ever said how good Simmons was at calling a game,

I don't recall any pitchers wanting only him to pitch to (see Gibson and Carlton with McCarver)

Not much post season experience - 2 years worth

When he got the opportunity, his favored team (Brewers) lost to the Cardinals despite being favored and Ted did not play well 

No championships other than AL Champs in 1982 - even though his team was favored

.186 post season batting average going 11 of 59 in the post season

Did not really excel playing other positions than catcher

Did not have a resurgence of his career as a DH

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

 

With that said, if it so obvious how good Ted Simmons was, then why was he not voted into the Hall sooner? 

 

The reason that sports pundits, such as Derrick Goold have stated, is that Simmons was constantly being compared to his main same-generation competition, Johnny Bench, and coming up short in that one on one comparison.  If he had played at a different, non-Bench era, perhaps he would have already been in the Hall.

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I'm super glad he's in.  Well deserved.  These kinds of debates about fringe HOF types drive me crazy, however.  With a catcher like Simmons, let alone Yadi: of course, put 'em in.  For many fans, seeing the tine plaques in Cooperstown turns out to be a bit disappointing anyway, and unless you really know your baseball, many of the names will be fairly obscure.  And keep in mind that Dale Murphy, Larry Walker, and many others are still not in the HOF!

More generally: What I truly abhor is all the nonsense about keeping great guys OUT of various Halls of Fame:  whether it's someone like Simmons; or Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce (who both have great numbers); or even why the Doobie Brothers are one of the great bands of the 70s, but still not in the Rock & Roll HOF.  It tends to be from the snobby purists:  "O those Doobies were just not cutting edge enough," or whatever.  (Meanwhile the Zombies get in -- seriously!?)  But arguments for keeping a great guy out -- get a life!  Put more in !! (but not those druggies of course...or when?   McGwire? Barry Bonds??)

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Again, I was young and don't remember Ted Simmons in his peak years.  I remember more his later years as a Cardinal and then Milwaukee.  I am probably biased by watching Simmons get traded and then listening to Whitey Herzog explain why he traded him.   After being gone, I never saw Simmons really play well.  Certainly, he was  not a Cardinal killer.  And much of my thoughts and comments are based upon what others have said about Simmons and my review of stats/highlights, etc. 

With that said, if it so obvious how good Ted Simmons was, then why was he not voted into the Hall sooner?  Good hitter who racked up a lot of years and a lot of games. Excellent hitter and played a long time.  248 HRs is impressive - though over 20+ years, the number per season is not as impressive.  Yes, Busch Stadium was then huge - a graveyard.  Yes, other ballparks were long as well.   But here's why he might belong, instead, in the Hall of Very Good

Weak arm with a very low figure of throwing runners out

Not the best defensively - a lot of passed balls

I don't recall anyone ever said how good Simmons was at calling a game,

I don't recall any pitchers wanting only him to pitch to (see Gibson and Carlton with McCarver)

Not much post season experience - 2 years worth

When he got the opportunity, his favored team (Brewers) lost to the Cardinals despite being favored and Ted did not play well 

No championships other than AL Champs in 1982 - even though his team was favored

.186 post season batting average going 11 of 59 in the post season

Did not really excel playing other positions than catcher

Did not have a resurgence of his career as a DH

 

 

 

 

Herzog said he traded Simmons because he wanted a better defensive catcher. Darrell Porter wasn't better defensively, and he was certainly a much worse hitter. Herzog wanted to bring in his guy. Simmons became an all star for Milwaukee the next season. Fingers won both the Cy Young and MVP. Vuckovich also won the CY Young. Herzog was outsmarted badly in that trade. Fingers, Vuckovich, Simmons all made major contributions to Milwaukee. 

It isn't Simmons' fault he didn't play on more successful teams. 

From 1971-1980 he had a better OPS+ than Johnny Bench (regarded as best catcher in HOF) as well as virtually the same oWAR. 

In 1982 he hit 23 HR's, 97, RBI's, 112 OPS+ followed that up the next year hitting .308, 108 RBI's, 126 OPS+.

For 10 straight years, he had a park adjusted OPS+ of minimum 110. The only other catchers to do that are Gary Carter, Mike Piazza. 

For 10 straight years he had a WAR of 3 or better. The only other catchers to do that are Bench and Rodriguez.

He threw out 34% of base runners which is middle of pack for catchers, not bottom tier. It is a similar number to Tony Peña. Thankfully for Simmons your personal recollections and his career are a bit different.

Simmons has a similar slugging percentage to Carter and Fisk because he had significantly more other non HR extra base hits than those two. (He was still 7th in HR's)

Simmons was not just a great hitting catcher but a great hitter period. He was top 10 in league WAR 5 times and top 10 in league slugging percentage 15 times. 

What other catchers excelled when playing other positions or moving to DH?

Why wasn't Simmons in the Hall sooner?  Who cares? Do you think Simmons is the first or only professional athlete in any sport to deserve to be in the Hall of Fame that was snubbed for many years? Carter and Fisk were finishing their careers. Munson died. Played with Bench. Most of those were big market players. He was a progressive guy and the first MLB holdout ever. Interesting that Herzog was on the 2011 and 2014 committees that denied him.

On the one hand you say Simmons didn't play many post season games, as if it is a strike against him. On the other hand you say he played too many regular season games as if it is a strike against him. Can't have it both ways.

Long long long overdue. It will be a nice celebration in 2020. Good for Ted. Well earned.

 

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46 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

I'm super glad he's in.  Well deserved.  These kinds of debates about fringe HOF types drive me crazy, however.  With a catcher like Simmons, let alone Yadi: of course, put 'em in.  For many fans, seeing the tine plaques in Cooperstown turns out to be a bit disappointing anyway, and unless you really know your baseball, many of the names will be fairly obscure.  And keep in mind that Dale Murphy, Larry Walker, and many others are still not in the HOF!

More generally: What I truly abhor is all the nonsense about keeping great guys OUT of various Halls of Fame:  whether it's someone like Simmons; or Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce (who both have great numbers); or even why the Doobie Brothers are one of the great bands of the 70s, but still not in the Rock & Roll HOF.  It tends to be from the snobby purists:  "O those Doobies were just not cutting edge enough," or whatever.  (Meanwhile the Zombies get in -- seriously!?)  But arguments for keeping a great guy out -- get a life!  Put more in !! (but not those druggies of course...or when?   McGwire? Barry Bonds??)

This may be Bruce's year. The NFL had a log jam at the WR position. Then some high profile receivers went in ahead of Bruce. He'll get in. It took Tim Brown a long long time to get in, etc...but Simmons doesn't have to concern himself with that any longer.

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53 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

The reason that sports pundits, such as Derrick Goold have stated, is that Simmons was constantly being compared to his main same-generation competition, Johnny Bench, and coming up short in that one on one comparison.  If he had played at a different, non-Bench era, perhaps he would have already been in the Hall.

i consider Bench the best all around catcher in history.   and while others here have said the likes of boone and sundberg were better defensively, bench was pretty darn good with a killer arm.   the reds later got him out behind the plate later in his career because he was a dangerous hitter that they wanted to try to extend as long as possible.  

i do now believe as skip says that molina is the greatest defensive catcher ever.   but until molina came along, i would have taken bench as my backstop if putting a dream team together.   i think bench's defense was so overshadowed by his great bat, it diminished the memory of his defensive peak years.

from an offensive view it is piazza and bench then all the rest imo.  

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55 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

I'm super glad he's in.  Well deserved.  These kinds of debates about fringe HOF types drive me crazy, however.  With a catcher like Simmons, let alone Yadi: of course, put 'em in.  For many fans, seeing the tine plaques in Cooperstown turns out to be a bit disappointing anyway, and unless you really know your baseball, many of the names will be fairly obscure.  And keep in mind that Dale Murphy, Larry Walker, and many others are still not in the HOF!

More generally: What I truly abhor is all the nonsense about keeping great guys OUT of various Halls of Fame:  whether it's someone like Simmons; or Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce (who both have great numbers); or even why the Doobie Brothers are one of the great bands of the 70s, but still not in the Rock & Roll HOF.  It tends to be from the snobby purists:  "O those Doobies were just not cutting edge enough," or whatever.  (Meanwhile the Zombies get in -- seriously!?)  But arguments for keeping a great guy out -- get a life!  Put more in !! (but not those druggies of course...or when?   McGwire? Barry Bonds??)

Great point!!  Let’s let another 100 guys in!!   But you will then argue against letting in player 101. Always has to be a line.
 

No, let’s put everyone in Hall.  Trophies and medals for all!!

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1 hour ago, DoctorB said:

I'm super glad he's in.  Well deserved.  These kinds of debates about fringe HOF types drive me crazy, however.  With a catcher like Simmons, let alone Yadi: of course, put 'em in.  For many fans, seeing the tine plaques in Cooperstown turns out to be a bit disappointing anyway, and unless you really know your baseball, many of the names will be fairly obscure.  And keep in mind that Dale Murphy, Larry Walker, and many others are still not in the HOF!

More generally: What I truly abhor is all the nonsense about keeping great guys OUT of various Halls of Fame:  whether it's someone like Simmons; or Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce (who both have great numbers); or even why the Doobie Brothers are one of the great bands of the 70s, but still not in the Rock & Roll HOF.  It tends to be from the snobby purists:  "O those Doobies were just not cutting edge enough," or whatever.  (Meanwhile the Zombies get in -- seriously!?)  But arguments for keeping a great guy out -- get a life!  Put more in !! (but not those druggies of course...or when?   McGwire? Barry Bonds??)

doobies pre- mcdonald or after?

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13 minutes ago, courtside said:

 

 Herzog was outsmarted badly in that trade.

 

I don't know about that.  Vuckovich is one of the least deserving Cy Young winners ever.  As truly dominate as Fingers was in 1981 he was nearing the end of the line and after that season Sutter was the better fireman.  Porter not only had a better defensive WAR over the next four seasons than Simmons, Porter had a better overall total WAR than Simmons over the next four seasons.  The trade brought the Cardinals Green, LaPoint, Lezcano and Sorenson.  Those players were in turn flipped over the next three seasons to bring in Ozzie Smith, Lonnie Smith and Jack Clark.  The Cardinals went from finishing 14 games under .500 in 1980 to having the best record in the NL East in 1981 and World Series Champs in 1982.  

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19 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i consider Bench the best all around catcher in history.   and while others here have said the likes of boone and sundberg were better defensively, bench was pretty darn good with a killer arm.   the reds later got him out behind the plate later in his career because he was a dangerous hitter that they wanted to try to extend as long as possible.  

i do now believe as skip says that molina is the greatest defensive catcher ever.   but until molina came along, i would have taken bench as my backstop if putting a dream team together.   i think bench's defense was so overshadowed by his great bat, it diminished the memory of his defensive peak years.

from an offensive view it is piazza and bench then all the rest imo.  

I'm going to remark on this post and Clock's 

Clock … Simmons threw out 34% which was exactly league average for his career. 

I believe Yadi is the best defensive catcher of the last 50 years. I won't comment on before then as I was too young. He's better defensively than Bench, Sunny ( who I watched live probably 150 times ) Boone, and Carter. Pudge had a better throwing arm (the best I've ever seen) but that's it. However, Bench combined great defense with great offense so I'd have to give the best all time to him 

Overall I go Bench, Yadi, Pudge, Carter

A good discussion for example 3 star says 60/40 offense, I say 70/30 maybe 65/35 defense

Mike Piazza probably the best offensive catcher in the last 50 years or Yadi, Who do you take?  Obviously Yadi for me

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2 minutes ago, brianstl said:

I don't know about that.  Vuckovich is one of the least deserving Cy Young winners ever.  As truly dominate as Fingers was in 1981 he was nearing the end of the line and after that season Sutter was the better fireman.  Porter not only had a better defensive WAR over the next four seasons than Simmons, Porter had a better overall total WAR than Simmons over the next four seasons.  The trade brought the Cardinals Green, LaPoint, Lezcano and Sorenson.  Those players were in turn flipped over the next three seasons to bring in Ozzie Smith, Lonnie Smith and Jack Clark.  The Cardinals went from finishing 14 games under .500 in 1980 to having the best record in the NL East in 1981 and World Series Champs in 1982.  

So you are saying it was a good trade because the Cardinals got rid of the players received in the trade the next 3 seasons? Those particular players sent helped the Brewers whereas the players received were less help to the Cardinals. 

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