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O T Ted Simmons in the HOF


almaman

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Very happy for him.

Has handled himself well in retirement... year after year he didn't mouth off about not getting voted in, has been a good Cardinals ambassador, gave a very nice speech when the Cardinals inducted him in the their own Hall not long ago. Classy guy. A great Cardinal.

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45 minutes ago, courtside said:

Ozzie Smith, Robin Yount, Walt Jocketty, among the 16 member selection committee. 

Jay Jaffe had a pretty good article recently as to why Simmons is worthy of the MLB Hall of Fame:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ted-simmons-election-to-the-hall-of-fame-is-overdue/

Thanks. That's a great read. Before reading that I was on the fence regarding Simmons and the HOF ( Imo defense should be 75% of a players value as a catcher) However, I really didn't understand just how good he was offensively compared to the rest of the league not just catchers for the era. 

For someone who considers himself an extreme Cardinal fanatic, I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't get it. 

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24 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Thanks. That's a great read. Before reading that I was on the fence regarding Simmons and the HOF ( Imo defense should be 75% of a players value as a catcher) However, I really didn't understand just how good he was offensively compared to the rest of the league not just catchers for the era. 

For someone who considers himself an extreme Cardinal fanatic, I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't get it. 

Statistically, offensively, he was really good. And his defense while not good, wasn't terrible either. Some of the Whitey Herzog stuff was a bit interesting too. As Darrell Porter wasn't exactly a big defensive upgrade and certainly didn't have the offensive capabilities. Simmons didn't play on great teams which didn't help him with voting, or in the every day lineup.

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1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

Thanks. That's a great read. Before reading that I was on the fence regarding Simmons and the HOF ( Imo defense should be 75% of a players value as a catcher) However, I really didn't understand just how good he was offensively compared to the rest of the league not just catchers for the era. 

For someone who considers himself an extreme Cardinal fanatic, I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't get it. 

probably because he was a good hitting catcher when the likes of johnny bench and thruman munson, and carlton fisk and even the beginning of gary carter years.were all playing.  they could hit and were excellent catchers as well.   

until yadi came along i felt bench was the best fielding catcher in history (without regard to his hitting which in his prime was top shelf). 

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

probably because he was a good hitting catcher when the likes of johnny bench and thruman munson, and carlton fisk and even the beginning of gary carter years.were all playing.  they could hit and were excellent catchers as well.   

until yadi came along i felt bench was the best fielding catcher in history (without regard to his hitting which in his prime was top shelf). 

There is another catcher from that era that frequently gets forgotten. He's arguably a to 5 defensive catcher of the last 60 years. 

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3 hours ago, brianstl said:

Lance Parish or Jim Sundberg?

Sundberg. Extremely underrated catcher. He was good enough defensively that he finished 15th in the mvp vote twice despite playing for a horrible Rangers team and hitting just over league average. I believe he's tied for 4th with most GG's by a catcher. 

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Yes.   Thanks for the article Courtside.   Definitely a well written article in support of Simba.   I recall Ted Simmons though I admit that I was too young to really watch and remember his playing career.   Great person and smart baseball mind.   He will represent St. Louis very well and always happy to have another Cardinal enter the HOF.   Will he wear the STL cap?  For whatever reason, he has not retuned to St Louis much since he was traded and left town.  I know he is from Detroit, played for Milwaukee and Atlanta, but I don't recall too many sightings of him, interviews, etc.   I know he had his number retired by the Cardinals.  Can anyone comment on this?

Also, just not so sure about his selection.   Again, great to have St Louis represented, but I am just not sure he is good enough.  Guess it depends upon one's standards for the HOF.   Are there worse players in the Hall?  Sure.  Wil he be one of the best in the Hall? Probably not.

Very good hitter - especially for a catcher.   Following his playing years, the catcher position changed and a defensive specialist became the norm.  Could he have been denied admission to the Hall b/c of his political views?  for standing up to MLB?  did he alienate the older writers?  Sure.   But his defense was not the greatest - and the next generation of catcher were good defensively.   But to me, most of the questionable guys who still made the Hall, did so, because of their post-season play.  Ted was not so fortunate - and not all his fault.   At the same time, when he did get the chance, he did not take advantage of the same.   His team lost to the Yankees in the 1981 AL playoff series  and to the Cardinals in the 1982 World Series so he is not a champion.  Also, he batted 11 for 59 in the postseason for an average of .186.  And with the whole world watching the World Series, his team lost and he batted  4 for 23 or .173   https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simmote01.shtml

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Second best hitter in one of the 8 positions of a sport who's had over 15k players in the last 120 years.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                         mic drop

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10 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes.   Thanks for the article Courtside.   Definitely a well written article in support of Simba.   I recall Ted Simmons though I admit that I was too young to really watch and remember his playing career.   Great person and smart baseball mind.   He will represent St. Louis very well and always happy to have another Cardinal enter the HOF.   Will he wear the STL cap?  For whatever reason, he has not retuned to St Louis much since he was traded and left town.  I know he is from Detroit, played for Milwaukee and Atlanta, but I don't recall too many sightings of him, interviews, etc.   I know he had his number retired by the Cardinals.  Can anyone comment on this?

Also, just not so sure about his selection.   Again, great to have St Louis represented, but I am just not sure he is good enough.  Guess it depends upon one's standards for the HOF.   Are there worse players in the Hall?  Sure.  Wil he be one of the best in the Hall? Probably not.

Very good hitter - especially for a catcher.   Following his playing years, the catcher position changed and a defensive specialist became the norm.  Could he have been denied admission to the Hall b/c of his political views?  for standing up to MLB?  did he alienate the older writers?  Sure.   But his defense was not the greatest - and the next generation of catcher were good defensively.   But to me, most of the questionable guys who still made the Hall, did so, because of their post-season play.  Ted was not so fortunate - and not all his fault.   At the same time, when he did get the chance, he did not take advantage of the same.   His team lost to the Yankees in the 1981 AL playoff series  and to the Cardinals in the 1982 World Series so he is not a champion.  Also, he batted 11 for 59 in the postseason for an average of .186.  And with the whole world watching the World Series, his team lost and he batted  4 for 23 or .173   https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simmote01.shtml

He played here for 13 seasons - five in Milwaukee, three in Atlanta.  He made the All-Star game six times here and won the Silver Slugger once.   I don't see why he wouldn't go in as a Cardinal.

He usually makes an appearance or two in STL every year.  His post-playing career in the Pirates' front office and later as a scout has likely kept him from being more involved with the Cards.

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2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Bob Boone, Jim Sundberg and Tony Pena belong in the Hall of Very Good. Lance Parrish was an eight-time All Star, nearly identical to Gary Carter statistically and had a better arm.  I have no idea why he isn't in.

I wasn't saying Sunny should be in. I'd agree that he's in the next notch under. Just really kinda making the point that offense seems to be the main consideration for catchers getting in the hall, when in my opinion defense should rule 75% of the analysis. 

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17 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I wasn't saying Sunny should be in. I'd agree that he's in the next notch under. Just really kinda making the point that offense seems to be the main consideration for catchers getting in the hall, when in my opinion defense should rule 75% of the analysis. 

Up until the 1970s, I would agree with you. But once multiple catchers came on the scene who could hit 30 hr a year and win multiple Gold Gloves, that altered the math.

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4 hours ago, Box and Won said:

He played here for 13 seasons - five in Milwaukee, three in Atlanta.  He made the All-Star game six times here and won the Silver Slugger once.   I don't see why he wouldn't go in as a Cardinal.

He usually makes an appearance or two in STL every year.  His post-playing career in the Pirates' front office and later as a scout has likely kept him from being more involved with the Cards.

Ted Simmons should go in the HOF as a Cardinal.  He was the best player on numerous Cardinal teams during the lost decade of the '70's.  I, along with many other Cardinal fans, was very upset when Whitey Herzog traded Simmons to Milwaukee after the 1980 season.  The fans made their opinions clear on Opening Day, 1981 at Busch Stadium II.

This being said, while in the big picture, this is not a matter of life and death, nevertheless there's enough concern here that I'm posting this.  Milwaukee, prime media and former teammates, has been doing some, what I term, light lobbying.  Simmons' only post-season experience was as a Brewer.  His only World Series experience was as a Brewer, playing against the Cardinals in 1982, a World Series the Cardinals won 4 games to 3 in an upset.

St. Louis and the Cardinals cannot allow themselves to be outflanked by Milwaukee and Brewer interests.  It's not like St. Louis (SLU) has not been outflanked by Milwaukee interests (Marquette) before ...

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3 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Bob Boone, Jim Sundberg and Tony Pena belong in the Hall of Very Good. Lance Parrish was an eight-time All Star, nearly identical to Gary Carter statistically and had a better arm.  I have no idea why he isn't in.

I love the your term "Hall of Very Good."  It always drives me crazy when folks incessantly argue that guys should be in whatever sport's Hall of Fame, when they're not the elite of the elite.

If I were starting a sport that was going to last a while, I'd wait twenty years after the sports inception, and then put one guy into the Hall of Fame every year.  That way, the debate is always about who is the single best player not in the Hall of Fame, and not not what "very good" players are comparable with guys who are already in.

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15 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes.   Thanks for the article Courtside.   Definitely a well written article in support of Simba.   I recall Ted Simmons though I admit that I was too young to really watch and remember his playing career.   Great person and smart baseball mind.   He will represent St. Louis very well and always happy to have another Cardinal enter the HOF.   Will he wear the STL cap?  For whatever reason, he has not retuned to St Louis much since he was traded and left town.  I know he is from Detroit, played for Milwaukee and Atlanta, but I don't recall too many sightings of him, interviews, etc.   I know he had his number retired by the Cardinals.  Can anyone comment on this?

Also, just not so sure about his selection.   Again, great to have St Louis represented, but I am just not sure he is good enough.  Guess it depends upon one's standards for the HOF.   Are there worse players in the Hall?  Sure.  Wil he be one of the best in the Hall? Probably not.

Very good hitter - especially for a catcher.   Following his playing years, the catcher position changed and a defensive specialist became the norm.  Could he have been denied admission to the Hall b/c of his political views?  for standing up to MLB?  did he alienate the older writers?  Sure.   But his defense was not the greatest - and the next generation of catcher were good defensively.   But to me, most of the questionable guys who still made the Hall, did so, because of their post-season play.  Ted was not so fortunate - and not all his fault.   At the same time, when he did get the chance, he did not take advantage of the same.   His team lost to the Yankees in the 1981 AL playoff series  and to the Cardinals in the 1982 World Series so he is not a champion.  Also, he batted 11 for 59 in the postseason for an average of .186.  And with the whole world watching the World Series, his team lost and he batted  4 for 23 or .173   https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simmote01.shtml

Not sure he is good enough? Based on what exactly? 

In no particular order:

He is in the top 200 all time of any position player in WAR. There are six catchers in the MLB Hall of Fame with a WAR worse than Simmons. There are only 8 other catcher's with a 50 plus career WAR. All are in the Hall of Fame.

For players that played most of their career primarily as a catcher: 

2nd all time Catcher RBI's.

2nd all time Catcher Doubles.

2nd all time Catcher hits.

3rd all time Catcher games played.

7th all time among HOF Catcher Home Runs out of 14.

7th all time Catcher Batting Average.

4th all time Catcher Walks.

5th all time Catcher Runs Scored.

Top 10 in league in WAR 5 times regardless of any player's position.

Top 10 in OPS 15 times regardless of any player's position. 

His defense statistically was much better than some would think. Not great but not bad. At minimum average defensively as a catcher. 

He's clearly a Hall of Famer based on various criterias used for selection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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