OT Dumpster Fire in Columbia

[Quality Is Job 1]

2 hours ago, Pistol said:

With apologies to the few fine people I know around here who also cheer for Mizzou, the funniest possible outcome here is if Mizzou's season continues to be a disaster and then they win the SEC Tournament.

5/1/215/1/22

I wouldn't worry about that scenario.  I can't remember any occasion when Mizzou won more than one SEC Tournament game, let alone play for a championship.  Many Mizzou were incensed about the Tigers being picked by some to finish 13th.  The way this teams looks, that was too high.  I guess they can turn things around, but right now I wonder if they can win even one conference game.

Should they have kept Anderson?  Heh.

[HoosierPal]

3 hours ago, Pistol said:

This appears to be true. Martin's contract says that he can't be fired without cause until May 1, 2020. If he's fired between that date and April 30, 2021, he's owed a $6 million buyout. The buyout drops to $3 million the next year, $1 million the following, and $300,000 the final year. The overall deal is for 7 years and $21 million.

But here's the kicker: If Martin makes the Tournament at any time, his firing/buyout terms get pushed back a year. They made the Tournament his first season, 2017-2018. That means his actual can't-be-fired-until date is May 1, 2021. And the $6 million buyout is now between that date and April 30, 2022. And so forth.

One side note: May 1 is very late in the spring as it relates to the annual coaching carousel. It puts Mizzou at a huge disadvantage if they dump him on May 1, 2021 - in addition to being on the hook for another $6 million.

They are legitimately stuck with Martin until May 1, 2021. I would expect that we will see a very public countdown clock for Mizzou fans catching fire on social media. If you see "5/1/21" in the context of Mizzou fandom, now you have the explanation.

AND, they are buying out their alumni football coach for $2.85 million and his staff for another Brinks truck load, plus giving whichever desperate soul takes the gig another boatload of money.

[mrjoelabs]

Martin might be the worst game coach in the country.  This was a joy to watch.  JT finally has it figured out, maybe he can graduate early and come over here next year. Doubtful with his academics though.  Martin never has his players prepared to play...ever

[3star_recruit]

3 hours ago, Pistol said:

This appears to be true. Martin's contract says that he can't be fired without cause until May 1, 2020. If he's fired between that date and April 30, 2021, he's owed a $6 million buyout. The buyout drops to $3 million the next year, $1 million the following, and $300,000 the final year. The overall deal is for 7 years and $21 million.

But here's the kicker: If Martin makes the Tournament at any time, his firing/buyout terms get pushed back a year. They made the Tournament his first season, 2017-2018. That means his actual can't-be-fired-until date is May 1, 2021. And the $6 million buyout is now between that date and April 30, 2022. And so forth.

One side note: May 1 is very late in the spring as it relates to the annual coaching carousel. It puts Mizzou at a huge disadvantage if they dump him on May 1, 2021 - in addition to being on the hook for another $6 million.

They are legitimately stuck with Martin until May 1, 2021. I would expect that we will see a very public countdown clock for Mizzou fans catching fire on social media. If you see "5/1/21" in the context of Mizzou fandom, now you have the explanation.

Every high major coach needs to hire Cuonzo's lawyer. This guy is amazing.

[3star_recruit]

nm

[Billikens4life]

Cuonzo's lawyer must be amazing, but that is one of the stupidest contracts that you can hand out.  But then again, Mizzou athletics making poor decisions is just par for the course

[Clock_Tower]

2 hours ago, Bills_06 said:

What about with Watson?  Did you think he was going to be mainly a 3 point threat in college?  

 0-7 from the 3 point line is not a threat.  Instead, I would call that a nightmare.

Not laughing at you (Bills_06) but at Martin and Mizzou!!

[Pistol]

As a SLU fan, there are certain things that happen to other programs that I can't take any joy in, no matter which program it is.

Mizzou lost to Charleston Southern - I might think it's funny but I keep quiet because we very well might lay an egg against Maryville or Bethune-Cookman. This early college basketball season (not to mention our tortured history) has shown that anything can happen. Anyone can have a bad night or face an underdog playing great.

When Georgetown loses players to off-court circumstances, I'm not touching that for obvious reasons. People are piling on Ewing and the players but if it were us everyone here would be defending them and attacking the accuser(s) and school.

And I never take any joy in any team losing a player to injury of any kind. The recent injuries at St. Joe's or Richmond, for example - get healthy as soon as possible. I hate it.

But the contract that Mizzou gave to Martin is different. Unless that became market standard - and I am fairly confident it won't, given what we're seeing - I don't think this is something SLU would ever do. Maybe there are other contracts out there with clauses like this. Maybe they're even as long as the one in Martin's. It might even make a little sense if you want to make sure a guy like Coach K or Izzo or Boeheim retires at the program he's led for decades. But Martin isn't any of those guys and $21 million over 7 years is already a home run for a coach with his experience. It's just unbelievable that there's a 3-year no-firing-without-cause clause that is automatically extended with an NCAAT appearance, and the AD has put his own job on the line for signing this kind of deal. It's shocking, really, and things are going to be ugly over there for the foreseeable future.

[Brighton]

You know this is a beaten down fanbase when you can’t even enjoy the annual Mizzou choke job.

[JMM28]

57 minutes ago, Pistol said:

But the contract that Mizzou gave to Martin is different. Unless that became market standard - and I am fairly confident it won't, given what we're seeing - I don't think this is something SLU would ever do. Maybe there are other contracts out there with clauses like this. Maybe they're even as long as the one in Martin's. It might even make a little sense if you want to make sure a guy like Coach K or Izzo or Boeheim retires at the program he's led for decades. But Martin isn't any of those guys and $21 million over 7 years is already a home run for a coach with his experience. It's just unbelievable that there's a 3-year no-firing-without-cause clause that is automatically extended with an NCAAT appearance, and the AD has put his own job on the line for signing this kind of deal. It's shocking, really, and things are going to be ugly over there for the foreseeable future.

Most ADs are negotiating against themselves - especially when it’s extensions. But this is an all time laugher. 
 

I’d argue that it would be better for a mid major to hand out a deal with a clause like that. Mizzou should be expecting their coach to take their team to the NCAA 3 out of 4 years minimum - especially at that price point for Martin. That is a low expectations deal that should realistically turn into a lifetime contract for Cuonzo or a really expensive buyout. A team that has a handful of tournaments in their history would be okay to hand that out, as the coach would probably leave for greener pastures and/or be exceeding expectations for that program.  

Even if you fire the AD, who wants a job where your 1B high profile program has a coach locked in like that? 

This is great. 

[RiseAndGrind]

17 minutes ago, Pistol said:

As a SLU fan, there are certain things that happen to other programs that I can't take any joy in, no matter which program it is.

Mizzou lost to Charleston Southern - I might think it's funny but I keep quiet because we very well might lay an egg against Maryville or Bethune-Cookman. This early college basketball season (not to mention our tortured history) has shown that anything can happen. Anyone can have a bad night or face an underdog playing great.

When Georgetown loses players to off-court circumstances, I'm not touching that for obvious reasons. People are piling on Ewing and the players but if it were us everyone here would be defending them and attacking the accuser(s) and school.

And I never take any joy in any team losing a player to injury of any kind. The recent injuries at St. Joe's or Richmond, for example - get healthy as soon as possible. I hate it.

But the contract that Mizzou gave to Martin is different. Unless that became market standard - and I am fairly confident it won't, given what we're seeing - I don't think this is something SLU would ever do. Maybe there are other contracts out there with clauses like this. Maybe they're even as long as the one in Martin's. It might even make a little sense if you want to make sure a guy like Coach K or Izzo or Boeheim retires at the program he's led for decades. But Martin isn't any of those guys and $21 million over 7 years is already a home run for a coach with his experience. It's just unbelievable that there's a 3-year no-firing-without-cause clause that is automatically extended with an NCAAT appearance, and the AD has put his own job on the line for signing this kind of deal. It's shocking, really, and things are going to be ugly over there for the foreseeable future.

If I was an AD I would do the same thing. Go balls to the wall for my guy and if it works I’m a hero and if it doesn’t oh well I’ll be fired 

[Pistol]

56 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

I’d argue that it would be better for a mid major to hand out a deal with a clause like that. A team that has a handful of tournaments in their history would be okay to hand that out, as the coach would probably leave for greener pastures and/or be exceeding expectations for that program.  

Even if you fire the AD, who wants a job where your 1B high profile program has a coach locked in like that? 

That's a good point. It makes more sense if you love your HC and you're a potential stepping stone than a power conference program. Makes me wonder if guys like Few and McKillop and some others that have been at non-power conference programs for a long time have sweeteners in their deals like this.

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

As a SLU fan, there are certain things that happen to other programs that I can't take any joy in, no matter which program it is.

Mizzou lost to Charleston Southern - I might think it's funny but I keep quiet because we very well might lay an egg against Maryville or Bethune-Cookman. This early college basketball season (not to mention our tortured history) has shown that anything can happen. Anyone can have a bad night or face an underdog playing great.

When Georgetown loses players to off-court circumstances, I'm not touching that for obvious reasons. People are piling on Ewing and the players but if it were us everyone here would be defending them and attacking the accuser(s) and school.

And I never take any joy in any team losing a player to injury of any kind. The recent injuries at St. Joe's or Richmond, for example - get healthy as soon as possible. I hate it.

But the contract that Mizzou gave to Martin is different. Unless that became market standard - and I am fairly confident it won't, given what we're seeing - I don't think this is something SLU would ever do. Maybe there are other contracts out there with clauses like this. Maybe they're even as long as the one in Martin's. It might even make a little sense if you want to make sure a guy like Coach K or Izzo or Boeheim retires at the program he's led for decades. But Martin isn't any of those guys and $21 million over 7 years is already a home run for a coach with his experience. It's just unbelievable that there's a 3-year no-firing-without-cause clause that is automatically extended with an NCAAT appearance, and the AD has put his own job on the line for signing this kind of deal. It's shocking, really, and things are going to be ugly over there for the foreseeable future.

I assume "cause" means not showing up to practice and games, not being respectful to your boss as you cash your paycheck, not putting your school on probation b/c of rules violations  -- as opposed to the other "cause" --  being a bad recruiter, a bad coach, not making the Tournament and have a poor win/loss record.

[slufanskip]

1 minute ago, Clock_Tower said:

I assume "cause" means not showing up to practice and games, not being respectful to your boss as you cash your paycheck, not putting your school on probation b/c of rules violations  -- as opposed to the other "cause" --  being a bad recruiter, a bad coach, not making the Tournament and have a poor win/loss record.

That's kinda what I was thinking. I guess "just cause" is pretty clearly defined

[Pistol]

51 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

If I was an AD I would do the same thing. Go balls to the wall for my guy and if it works I’m a hero and if it doesn’t oh well I’ll be fired 

I guess Sterk thought Martin was a superstar. Don't get me wrong, I thought he was a good hire at the right time for Mizzou. But he's never stayed anywhere longer than three seasons. Missouri State, Tennessee, Cal - all three seasons and gone.

With the first two, he left them in better shape than when he arrived. The same can't be said of Cal but he clearly wanted the Mizzou job more, and I don't blame him given that he's from the region and Mizzou was willing to pay more and commit more to its athletics as it moved to the SEC than a high-academic school like Cal.

I just think there's a difference between going as hard as you can for your guy and locking your institution into a long-term deal with no escape clause. No matter how much Sterk saw Martin as the right guy, he has a responsibility to the athletic program and the institution. He can advocate for "his" guy without being this recklessly irresponsible on behalf of the school and state.

[cheeseman]

21 minutes ago, Pistol said:

That's a good point. It makes more sense if you love your HC and you're a potential stepping stone than a power conference program. Makes me wonder if guys like Few and McKillop and some others that have been at non-power conference programs for a long time have sweeteners in their deals like this.

I am not sure I would classify this clause as a sweetener.  To me it is a protection (not an add a cherry on top)  for the coach only.I bet this was asked for by Martin because he hasn't lasted more than 3 years at any major program.  When he left TN and Cal they were glad to have him go so I figure he was protecting himself from those same situations happening again.  To be fair Martin was successful at Southwest MO.  Not sure Few or McKillop needs this type of protection.

[Box and Won]

Martin's 2015-16 Cal team had FOUR future NBA players.  They lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

[73Billiken]

What a wonderful pre-Xmas present!  This is a joy to watch unfold.

Let them wallow in it.  Their attitude has always been of being the superior program in the state.

We should not listen to them trying to schedule SLU; we as a program have nothing to gain in playing them.

 

 

[mrjoelabs]

1 hour ago, Box and Won said:

Martin's 2015-16 Cal team had FOUR future NBA players.  They lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

He simply cannot coach

[jimbofive]

4 hours ago, Pistol said:

As a SLU fan, there are certain things that happen to other programs that I can't take any joy in, no matter which program it is.

I can take joy in whatever I want, w/r/t other programs' plights.

I had to sit through a 20 point scoring effort, as one of the greatest NCAA coaches in history used it as a teaching moment.

I also had to watch my team get raped out of 1 or 2 pretty much guaranteed tourney appearances due to rich white girl guilt accusations.

Mizzou can die in a fire.

[Clock_Tower]

Sometimes the smartest thing a coach can do is to know to when leave.   Martin has always been able to recruit talent, and with the talent win some games, but none of his stops have lasted very long.  Instead, his smartest moves have been to leave -- 3 years at MO State, 3 years at Tennessee, 3 years at Cal and now his 3rd year at Mizzou.  Blame cannot truly stick after only 3 years.   The direction of the program is really the best indicator - but even that is subjective and be spun in different directions.  The first year of a head coach is usually a late Spring hire, maybe bring in a player or 2 who is considered and unexpected bonus following by him then coaching whoever is left over, then a promising set of young talent in year 2 (though who can blame the losses on just a Freshman class) and then year 3 (still youngsters in your program -- Frosh and Sophs) - but patience can be waning and expectations can be higher.  But Tennessee was pushing him out the door and he immediately found Cal.  Then he failed and was fired at Cal only to get hired the same day at Mizzou with the Porters in tow -- the Father who was a $1 million assistant coach based only on his prior coaching abilities, then son (future star son Michael) who was injured nearly the whole year and now is averaging 3.7 ppg in year 2 of the NBA (after sitting out the 1st year with a second back surgery) and a decent but not that great Jontay - who also is long gone.  Frankly, I don't know why the programs (and Mizzou is not alone) did not take a closer look and did not see the mark he truly left at the programs.   I get it -- former college, P5 star, former NBA player, "up and coming" African American coach who is a rags to riches story... but I never thought he was that good - at any of his prior stops.

[Quality Is Job 1]

4 hours ago, Pistol said:

As a SLU fan, there are certain things that happen to other programs that I can't take any joy in, no matter which program it is.

Mizzou lost to Charleston Southern - I might think it's funny but I keep quiet because we very well might lay an egg against Maryville or Bethune-Cookman. This early college basketball season (not to mention our tortured history) has shown that anything can happen. Anyone can have a bad night or face an underdog playing great.

I think this is honorable, Pistol, but don't think for a second that if SLU were to lose a game this season against a "low-major" or worse program then a number of posters on Tigerboard wouldn't throw plenty of shade at the Billikens program, even after last night's monumentally embarrassing loss at home to Charleston Southern.  In fact, if such an event — highly unlikely — were to occur, not only would there be posts on Tigerboard making fun of Ford and the Bills, but I bet some trollers would pop up here, as well.

[Quality Is Job 1]

4 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Sometimes the smartest thing a coach can do is to know to when leave.   Martin has always been able to recruit talent, and with the talent win some games, but none of his stops have lasted very long.  Instead, his smartest moves have been to leave -- 3 years at MO State, 3 years at Tennessee, 3 years at Cal and now his 3rd year at Mizzou.  Blame cannot truly stick after only 3 years.   The direction of the program is really the best indicator - but even that is subjective and be spun in different directions.  The first year of a head coach is usually a late Spring hire, maybe bring in a player or 2 who is considered and unexpected bonus following by him then coaching whoever is left over, then a promising set of young talent in year 2 (though who can blame the losses on just a Freshman class) and then year 3 (still youngsters in your program -- Frosh and Sophs) - but patience can be waning and expectations can be higher.  But Tennessee was pushing him out the door and he immediately found Cal.  Then he failed and was fired at Cal only to get hired the same day at Mizzou with the Porters in tow -- the Father who was a $1 million assistant coach based only on his prior coaching abilities, then son (future star son Michael) who was injured nearly the whole year and now is averaging 3.7 ppg in year 2 of the NBA (after sitting out the 1st year with a second back surgery) and a decent but not that great Jontay - who also is long gone.  Frankly, I don't know why the programs (and Mizzou is not alone) did not take a closer look and did not see the mark he truly left at the programs.   I get it -- former college, P5 star, former NBA player, "up and coming" African American coach who is a rags to riches story... but I never thought he was that good - at any of his prior stops.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall Cuonzo Martin getting dismissed by Cal.  I'm pretty sure he left there voluntarily to take the Mizzou job.  Coach Romar at Washington got fired the day that Mizzou announced it was hiring Martin in a package deal with Michael Porter Sr. and his sons, who were reneging on their commitment to Romar and Washington.

[Pistol]

14 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I think this is honorable, Pistol, but don't think for a second that if SLU were to lose a game this season against a "low-major" or worse program then a number of posters on Tigerboard wouldn't throw plenty of shade at the Billikens program, even after last night's monumentally embarrassing loss at home to Charleston Southern.  In fact, if such an event — highly unlikely — were to occur, not only would there be posts on Tigerboard making fun of Ford and the Bills, but I bet some trollers would pop up here, as well.

Why do I care what's on Tigerboard?

All I'm saying on that point is I keep my schadenfreude to myself on those losses and don't set myself up for potential embarrassment by putting it in writing.

[Box and Won]

4 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Why do I care what's on Tigerboard?

All I'm saying on that point is I keep my schadenfreude to myself on those losses and don't set myself up for potential embarrassment by putting it in writing.

I check Tigerboard maybe once or twice a year.  It makes me so grateful for this board, in terms of both layout and content.