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HoosierPal

Game Starts, First Five Minutes

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A handful of posters seem to be all uptight about game starts.  So I went back to the Game Logs and looked at the starters and what the score was at a point closest to the 5 minute mark.  Certainly in almost every game a substitution for various reasons had been made before the five minute mark. You can go back and research that if you want.

All who pay attention know that our starters for the first four games were French, Goodwin, Thatch, Jacobs and Bell.  Collins has started the last four since Thatch was injured/hurt/demoted.

FGCU - SLU 9 - 6

Valpo - SLU 13-12

EWash - SLU 10-6

Seton Hall - Hall 10-3

High Point - SLU 9-2

Belmont - SLU 5-2

BC - Boston College 9-1

SIUC - SIUC 10-3

So draw your own conclusions.  The lineup with Thatch starting has lead 3 of 4 games, and the lineup with Collins in has lead 2 of 4 games.

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-the last two games do point to a need for something to be addressed, for those blaming it all or mostly on JBell, that's nuts, I also think it was nuts to not get JBell back in the game yesterday especially when their big was on the bench but I trust CFord and the staff

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55 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

A handful of posters seem to be all uptight about game starts.  So I went back to the Game Logs and looked at the starters and what the score was at a point closest to the 5 minute mark.  Certainly in almost every game a substitution for various reasons had been made before the five minute mark. You can go back and research that if you want.

All who pay attention know that our starters for the first four games were French, Goodwin, Thatch, Jacobs and Bell.  Collins has started the last four since Thatch was injured/hurt/demoted.

FGCU - SLU 9 - 6

Valpo - SLU 13-12

EWash - SLU 10-6

Seton Hall - Hall 10-3

High Point - SLU 9-2

Belmont - SLU 5-2

BC - Boston College 9-1

SIUC - SIUC 10-3

So draw your own conclusions.  The lineup with Thatch starting has lead 3 of 4 games, and the lineup with Collins in has lead 2 of 4 games.

Now normalize point difference to difference in team Kenpom or NET. That would be a better judge. 

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Hopefully someone less lazy than myself can do this same exercise for when we made our first substitution. I think that would be extremely valuable to compare to the above so that we can find out if we are just slow starters or if it's a problem with the starting 5

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1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

A handful of posters seem to be all uptight about game starts.  So I went back to the Game Logs and looked at the starters and what the score was at a point closest to the 5 minute mark.  Certainly in almost every game a substitution for various reasons had been made before the five minute mark. You can go back and research that if you want.

All who pay attention know that our starters for the first four games were French, Goodwin, Thatch, Jacobs and Bell.  Collins has started the last four since Thatch was injured/hurt/demoted.

FGCU - SLU 9 - 6

Valpo - SLU 13-12

EWash - SLU 10-6

Seton Hall - Hall 10-3

High Point - SLU 9-2

Belmont - SLU 5-2

BC - Boston College 9-1

SIUC - SIUC 10-3

So draw your own conclusions.  The lineup with Thatch starting has lead 3 of 4 games, and the lineup with Collins in has lead 2 of 4 games.

I'd say we had slow starts offensively in the last 4 scoring 2, 5, 1, and 3 points. We've also had slow defensive starts in half of our games averaging 2 points against per minute. 

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3 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I'd say we had slow starts offensively in the last 4 scoring 2, 5, 1, and 3 points. We've also had slow defensive starts in half of our games averaging 2 points against per minute. 

it feels like we also have a ton of TO's in the first few minutes of these games. 

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1 minute ago, wgstl said:

it feels like we also have a ton of TO's in the first few minutes of these games. 

I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to look up the actual stats

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27 minutes ago, wgstl said:

it feels like we also have a ton of TO's in the first few minutes of these games. 

Absolutely agree.  Seemed like we had a billion turnovers in the first 4-5 minutes of BC. 

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26 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to look up the actual stats

Here you go.  Turnovers in the first 5 min (per ESPN play-by-play): 

FGCU - 2

Valpo - 1

EW - 2

SHU - 2

HP - 3 

Bel - 5

BC - 5

SIU - 3

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5 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Here you go.  Turnovers in the first 5 min (per ESPN play-by-play): 

FGCU - 2

Valpo - 1

EW - 2

SHU - 2

HP - 3 

Bel - 5

BC - 5

SIU - 3

That certainly helps identify a cause for the slow starts both offensively and defensively.  In the last 4 games we've had 3 twice which translates to 24 per game and 5 twice which has us on pace for 40. I'm not sure if this is an intensity/focus issue or trying to do too much. You just can't give an opponent that many more possessions than you and expect to get off to a good start. In addition many times that offensive t/o leads to easy points on the other end

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J. Bell had 3 rebounds, was 0-2 shooting  and had 1 foul -- in 3 minutes. Yuri and Goodwin both missed 3 pointers and we had 3 turnovers in the first half - including a hard to handle bullet pass to Bell from French.  Not the most impressive stats - thought the rebounds were good... but why did the team continue to play bad after Bell was removed?  If the score was 0 -10 at the 5 minute mark and if Bell played only 3 minutes -- what was the score when Bell left the game?   0 to 6?  The score then became 6 to 10 because of Perkins and Jimerson but why the score then go back to an 8 point deficit?  8 to 16 with less than 10 minutes to play?   Why were we still losing until into the 2nd half?

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1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

Here you go.  Turnovers in the first 5 min (per ESPN play-by-play): 

FGCU - 2  Bell, French

Valpo - 1 Bell

EW - 2 Bell, Thatch

SHU - 2 French, Collins

HP - 3  French, Goodwin, French

Bel - 5 Collins, Jacobs, French, French, Collins

BC - 5 Bell, Collins, French, Collins, French

SIU - 3 Goodwin, French, Jacobs

I added the owner of the Turnover. 

Bell-4

Collins - 5

French -9

Goodwin - 2

Jacobs - 2

Thatch - 1

So it is extremely obvious, it goes without saying, needless to say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, ipso facto,  that the answer to our initial 5 minute turnovers is to bench French and Collins.  'Ball don't lie.'  I'm sure this will make our MBM's happy.

 

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The Kenpom rankings for these teams will make you want to crawl in a hole... Belmont was actually a quality win and Seton Hall is 12 so whatever with that one. Everyone else is well below us in kenpom. We’re currently 112, BC is like 130 and the rest are over 250. 

Point is, we should be dominating these teams and not down 10 to a kenpom 300 team...

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14 minutes ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

The Kenpom rankings for these teams will make you want to crawl in a hole... Belmont was actually a quality win and Seton Hall is 12 so whatever with that one. Everyone else is well below us in kenpom. We’re currently 112, BC is like 130 and the rest are over 250. 

Point is, we should be dominating these teams and not down 10 to a kenpom 300 team...

what is it recess or study hall that gave you the chance to post today?   have you decided who you are taking to the big christmas dance yet?

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27 minutes ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

The Kenpom rankings for these teams will make you want to crawl in a hole... Belmont was actually a quality win and Seton Hall is 12 so whatever with that one. Everyone else is well below us in kenpom. We’re currently 112, BC is like 130 and the rest are over 250. 

Point is, we should be dominating these teams and not down 10 to a kenpom 300 team...

Basketball is like any other game. You don't always play your best especially when you are giving almost 70 mpg to freshman and another 40 to newcomers. That makes over half our minutes to newcomers. 

Also take away the 1st 3:30 and we win the SIUC game by 19. In reality it wasn't a great or even good game but minus the slow start it wasn't as bad as it seemed. We didn't score our 10th point until over 10 minutes gone. So we scored 59 points and held them to 44 in the last 30 minutes. 

And going on the road and beating #130 by 10 is a good win. 

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49 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I added the owner of the Turnover. 

Bell-4

Collins - 5

French -9

Goodwin - 2

Jacobs - 2

Thatch - 1

So it is extremely obvious, it goes without saying, needless to say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, ipso facto,  that the answer to our initial 5 minute turnovers is to bench French and Collins.  'Ball don't lie.'  I'm sure this will make our MBM's happy.

 

  1. Start a shooter (Jimerson / Weaver) instead of Collins (or Bell, but I understand the idea behind starting Bell).
  2. Stop trying to force feed French at the beginning of games.
  3. Tell French to pass the ball when he's double* or triple teamed inside.

* It'll be harder to double him with a shooter on the floor and also provide him with a better option to pass to if they do double him.

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1 minute ago, RUBillsFan said:
  1. Start a shooter (Jimerson / Weaver) instead of Collins (or Bell, but I understand the idea behind starting Bell).
  2. Stop trying to force feed French at the beginning of games.
  3. Tell French to pass the ball when he's double* or triple teamed inside.

* It'll be harder to double him with a shooter on the floor and also provide him with a better option to pass to if they do double him.

Exactly 

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27 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

what is it recess or study hall that gave you the chance to post today?   have you decided who you are taking to the big christmas dance yet?

More you mock me the more I’m going to rub it in your face. You do realize 3 threads were made about my sole observations that y’all mocked me for. Now after last nights game you all see the light.  Weird 

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I like Bell and his long-term potential. My only feedback on the lineup would be that Jimerson, Goodwin, and French should be out there together as much as possible. The spacing with Jimerson on the court is outstanding and French and Goodwin can be (and have been) dominant with a more freed up lane. Goodwin and French have definitely made a jump in terms of their development but it's a whole lot easier when the opponent can't sag 5 guys into the lane

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1 minute ago, slufan13 said:

I like Bell and his long-term potential. My only feedback on the lineup would be that Jimerson, Goodwin, and French should be out there together as much as possible. The spacing with Jimerson on the court is outstanding and French and Goodwin can be (and have been) dominant with a more freed up lane. Goodwin and French have definitely made a jump in terms of their development but it's a whole lot easier when the opponent can't sag 5 guys into the lane

This would probably help French get in a rhythm sooner, as well, and cut down on those early game turnovers. Maybe start Bell for the tip and bring Jimerson in at the first whistle?

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1 hour ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

More you mock me the more I’m going to rub it in your face. You do realize 3 threads were made about my sole observations that y’all mocked me for. Now after last nights game you all see the light.  Weird 

I don't see the light. The starting 5 was supposed to include Thatch but he's sick. I'm fine with Bell starting. The slow starts haven't been due to Bell. Let the season play out, the starting 5 may change and be set or it may fluctuate based upon a combination of who is practicing well and the opponent. I'd also have no problem with Jimerson starting in place of Yuri while Thatch is out. Hell, there is a case to be made for numerous starting lineups. I'm going to trust in Coach Ford. He see's them practice every day and knows what he wants to accomplish in the short term with the long term in mind

No one gets on you due to one recent post or opinion, it's that your opinions over time haven't proven to be very good. You always seem to want the next new thing or change based upon some small meaningless stat or example. 

You didn't answer my question regarding the 3 user names. Why not? 

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1 hour ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

The Kenpom rankings for these teams will make you want to crawl in a hole... Belmont was actually a quality win and Seton Hall is 12 so whatever with that one. Everyone else is well below us in kenpom. We’re currently 112, BC is like 130 and the rest are over 250. 

Point is, we should be dominating these teams and not down 10 to a kenpom 300 team...

Kentucky shouldn't have lost to Evansville.  Duke shouldn't have lost to Stephen F. Austin.  Even the best teams in the land have bad games.  We're spending all this time talking about a bad five minutes when our team is 7-1.  Maybe we should over analyze the great finishes we've had or the outstanding 2nd halves.

If you dissect each game played by the national champion every year, I think you will find a five minute stretch in every game where they were outscored by the other team.  Let's just enjoy that our team is built for the second half and keep enjoying these wins.

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52 minutes ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

More you mock me the more I’m going to rub it in your face. You do realize 3 threads were made about my sole observations that y’all mocked me for. Now after last nights game you all see the light.  Weird 

So no update on the junior high Christmas dance?   I was really rooting for Amy to say yes.   Good luck!

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