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Sheltiedave

Five SIU observations from da Natuzzi in SoCo

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We found out a few things today, with a few positives, a few negatives, and a few negatives that became brush fires.

1) First and foremost, with a thin front court of a decent active center and a small forward, we should have had our way playing a high post/cutter game, but it took over ten minutes to realize that SIU was hellbent on stopping French.

French didn’t help by trying to pound the paint, and he certainly didn’t do any recognition passing back to the guard when double/triple teamed. Poor recognition and poor coaching here.

2) We have just about reached the limit of force feeding Bell minutes as a starter. Ford saw the writing on the wall here, and Bell’s 3 minutes accurately reflected his overexposure with an active small ball SIU team. We cannot spot every team a 10 pt lead like we have been, and Bell had two miscues that didn’t help early.

3) The defense and rotations were pitiful in the first half. French has to know to jump hard if a forward or center is stepping out for a three, and likewise he must drag with the center of it otherwise means Collins gets the center posting up in the paint. Ford could fry an egg on his head at halftime due to our ineptitude.

4) Again we showed poor form breaking the press in multiple fashions. Perkins must stop with his jump passes immediately, and never throw a lazy north pass directly in center court. Jimerson made a lateral baseline pass back to Collins when both were covered. There was a lazy lateral pass just passed half court that was picked off. We gave back five points off these bad pass plays.

5) Jacobs is starting to feel how to pass to an open area, hitting French perfectly for a dunk layup. Goodwin had two assists directly in the wrinkle area I mentioned, one a dime to Perkins breaking in left baseline, and the other on a break where the help guard left the leaking Jimerson for an open three.

These bad games happen, especially over the holidays. Players get sick, worn down from their studies, and concentration slips. Thank goodness we have the F&G wrecking crew, and our bench outscored theirs 27 - 3.

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4 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

We found out a few things today, with a few positives, a few negatives, and a few negatives that became brush fires.

1) First and foremost, with a thin front court of a decent active center and a small forward, we should have had our way playing a high post/cutter game, but it took over ten minutes to realize that SIU was hellbent on stopping French.

French didn’t help by trying to pound the paint, and he certainly didn’t do any recognition passing back to the guard when double/triple teamed. Poor recognition and poor coaching here.

2) We have just about reached the limit of force feeding Bell minutes as a starter. Ford saw the writing on the wall here, and Bell’s 3 minutes accurately reflected his overexposure with an active small ball SIU team. We cannot spot every team a 10 pt lead like we have been, and Bell had two miscues that didn’t help early.

3) The defense and rotations were pitiful in the first half. French has to know to jump hard if a forward or center is stepping out for a three, and likewise he must drag with the center of it otherwise means Collins gets the center posting up in the paint. Ford could fry an egg on his head at halftime due to our ineptitude.

4) Again we showed poor form breaking the press in multiple fashions. Perkins must stop with his jump passes immediately, and never due a lazy north pass directly in center court. Jimerson made a lateral baseline pass back to Collins when both were covered. There was a lazy lateral pass just passed half court that was picked off. We gave back five points off these bad pass plays.

5) Jacobs is starting to feel how to pass to an open area, hitting French perfectly for a dunk layup. Goodwin had two assists directly in the wrinkle area I mentioned, one a dime to Perkins breaking in left baseline, and the other on a break where the help guard left the leaking Jimerson for an open three.

These bad games happen, especially over the holidays. Players get sick, worn down from their studies, and concentration slips. Thank goodness we have the F&G wrecking crew, and our bench outscored theirs 30-3.

I agree with your analysis here -- Ford is not doing Bell any favors by putting him in this position.  Bell should come in after the first TV timeout after we've established an offensive rhythm. If Perkins doesn't go off in the first half, we may have been in too big of a hole to come back.

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47 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

We found out a few things today, with a few positives, a few negatives, and a few negatives that became brush fires.

1) First and foremost, with a thin front court of a decent active center and a small forward, we should have had our way playing a high post/cutter game, but it took over ten minutes to realize that SIU was hellbent on stopping French.

French didn’t help by trying to pound the paint, and he certainly didn’t do any recognition passing back to the guard when double/triple teamed. Poor recognition and poor coaching here.

2) We have just about reached the limit of force feeding Bell minutes as a starter. Ford saw the writing on the wall here, and Bell’s 3 minutes accurately reflected his overexposure with an active small ball SIU team. We cannot spot every team a 10 pt lead like we have been, and Bell had two miscues that didn’t help early.

3) The defense and rotations were pitiful in the first half. French has to know to jump hard if a forward or center is stepping out for a three, and likewise he must drag with the center of it otherwise means Collins gets the center posting up in the paint. Ford could fry an egg on his head at halftime due to our ineptitude.

4) Again we showed poor form breaking the press in multiple fashions. Perkins must stop with his jump passes immediately, and never throw a lazy north pass directly in center court. Jimerson made a lateral baseline pass back to Collins when both were covered. There was a lazy lateral pass just passed half court that was picked off. We gave back five points off these bad pass plays.

5) Jacobs is starting to feel how to pass to an open area, hitting French perfectly for a dunk layup. Goodwin had two assists directly in the wrinkle area I mentioned, one a dime to Perkins breaking in left baseline, and the other on a break where the help guard left the leaking Jimerson for an open three.

These bad games happen, especially over the holidays. Players get sick, worn down from their studies, and concentration slips. Thank goodness we have the F&G wrecking crew, and our bench outscored theirs 27 - 3.

This is a great post. Also just want to add to your (5) that Ford said Jacobs was really the key to the second half run - moving him to the point. He was able to move off those screens effectively and get Has the ball in space several times. 

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We went with the starting five of the last 3 games and quickly fell into a hole. Bell only saw 3 minutes and sat. Yurimania played 21 minutes most coming in the first half. I like Yurimania, but it's time to come off the bench. I think the best starting lineup, because of Fred's apparent health problems, has to be JGood, Jacobs, French, Perkins, and Jimerson. Yes, Perkins may be a bit of a liability on D, same for Jimerson. But they are scorers.

Perkins in body and mindset reminds me a little of Harry Rogers. For those of you who never saw Harry play, and I did for 3 years, he would not pass Taj Mahal 79's eye test, ie he wasn't some bulked up PF or # 3. He was tall and lanky.  Yes, the game has changed, but Rogers was a very fluid player who could hit shots from the outside or take you off the dribble. Perkins shows me the same traits. He's a scorer first and foremost. He may find he's overmatched when we play Auburn, who all look like the Russkie weight lifting squad, but we don't have a PF or player, besides French, who looks like that anyways. Yes, he will get beat on D, but he will also likely beat his guy on offense. Zero sum game. Perkins should start or get 25 mpg. 

Jacobs showed us something tonight, I thought. He made a couple of good assists and can shoot it. Another scorer not quite like Perkins but he's a threat. In the speed up game, he's an asset. 

Jimerson, it goes without saying, the more minutes this kid gets he's going to score more. He's going to stop the D's from collapsing on French and JGood. His biggest sin was that turnover on his long pass. I call it a heads up play that he tried but didn't work. If he doesn't start, he's got to get his minutes just to throw the other team off stride. He needs to get in the flow early. He's not a bad defender that should only get better once he learns the tricks of the trade. 

Bell can replace French in spurts. Can't believe he's got such bad hands, which has been his weakness. He's either not looking for the pass, or he's got Trump sized hands and just can't handle the rock. 

No need to comment on French or JGood , but I'll add these points.  We are what they are, and they are pretty good. Yeah, we'd like to see JGood shoot better from the outside and the line. Maybe it happens. If it does, he's all A10. French is a warrior who can't hit a FT if a W depends on it, and it will in future games. But it was very obvious tonight, until we got Perkins and Jimerson involved, how SIU was going to play this game.  Drop 3 guys on French, and if JGood snuck in there the crowd would provide help. Expect more of that, and that's why we need Perkins and Jimerson in there a lot. 

As for Jacobs, if he doesn't step up then we still have Yurimania and Weaver to bail him out. Also, Yuri can spell JGood. Same goes for Weaver. 

We're 7-1 and entering the toughest part of our non con. Is KSU beatable by this team?  More likely than beating Auburn and Pearl. Tulane could be a struggle, but I'd expect we win that. Then it's basically conference play. That's where the real fun begins, as the A10 appears pretty decent from 1-10 teams. 

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I am too lazy to look it up - but what was the general consenus on a "good" 3 point percentage for GJ? Currently sitting at 44% after 8 games. Damn good in my eyes for a Frosh. 18-41.

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2 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

I am too lazy to look it up - but what was the general consenus on a "good" 3 point percentage for GJ? Currently sitting at 44% after 8 games. Damn good in my eyes for a Frosh. 18-41.

Damn good for anyone. The best thing about Jimerson is he opens up the floor. You can’t sag off him thus giving more space to French and Goodwin. 

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Nice initial post by Sheltie.  Three comments from the cheap seats:

1) Ya'all need to listen to Coach Ford, and accept what he says.  "I'm not necessarily starting my best five, I'm starting the five I need to start." Lucky for us Ford doesn't subscribe to the Flavor of the Day Club.  For those who want a different starting five, here are the opening sequence of plays...

Goodwin misses a jumper

Goodwin with a turnover

Collins beat off the dribble and fouls for an 'and one"

Turnover by French

Missed jumper by French, Missed jumper by Bell.

Turnover by Jacobs

So I assume you want all five starters on the bench. 

2) A key that turned the game around was putting Jacobs and Goodwin at point.  The Saluki's weren't guarding Collins.  His man was sinking into the post, clogging up French territory.  When Jacobs took over they had to guard him, and that pulled the defender away from French,opening up the lane for Hasahn.  French scored 13 of his 15 in the second half.

3)  I really liked their freshman Domask.  We had no answer for him.  Perkins tried his best, but couldn't handle him.  As Spoon once told Highmark, "if you aren't going to defend your guy, at least try to outscore him."  That almost worked, but Domask had 21 to Perkins 18.  How did Lusk steal him away from Marquette and Wisconsin? He was Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin last season.

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5 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Nice initial post by Sheltie.  Three comments from the cheap seats:

1) Ya'all need to listen to Coach Ford, and accept what he says.  "I'm not necessarily starting my best five, I'm starting the five I need to start." Lucky for us Ford doesn't subscribe to the Flavor of the Day Club.  For those who want a different starting five, here are the opening sequence of plays...

Goodwin misses a jumper

Goodwin with a turnover

Collins beat off the dribble and fouls for an 'and one"

Turnover by French

Missed jumper by French, Missed jumper by Bell.

Turnover by Jacobs

So I assume you want all five starters on the bench. 

2) A key that turned the game around was putting Jacobs and Goodwin at point.  The Saluki's weren't guarding Collins.  His man was sinking into the post, clogging up French territory.  When Jacobs took over they had to guard him, and that pulled the defender away from French,opening up the lane for Hasahn.  French scored 13 of his 15 in the second half.

3)  I really liked their freshman Domask.  We had no answer for him.  Perkins tried his best, but couldn't handle him.  As Spoon once told Highmark, "if you aren't going to defend your guy, at least try to outscore him."  That almost worked, but Domask had 21 to Perkins 18.  How did Lusk steal him away from Marquette and Wisconsin? He was Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin last season.

I think you and I are on the same page about what rotation played the best tonight. I agree on Domask. I expect he may seek a transfer from SIU. Hope not for them, but you just know some P5 will whisper in his ear....and he's gone. Their other FR Jones looked pretty good as well. Just goes to show there are a lot of good players out there just waiting to be found. Domask seems like the kind of player Rickma would have offered. Hard to believe UW didn't extend an offer to the Wisconsin POY. Or did they? 

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A lot of good comments. Evolving team. Again, we were without Thatch and Hankton -- and yet we are 7-1.  And a different member of the team (other than the Big Two) stepped up - Perkins - especially in the first half.  And Jimerson is rounding into a fine and consistent player for our team.

A few more comments

1.  Bell can start or not start - but our going down by 10 had nothing to do with Bell.   

2.  The hole we dug ourselves into was the result of poor spacing, bad passes and guys trying to do too much.

3.  Thatch originally provide both defense and an outside shot.    Not sure if Thatch will continue to provide the outside shooting when he returns, and not sure Jacobs can provide the outside shooting each and every game, but we need a shooter in the lineup.

4.  Yes, Goodwin can rebound but his PG skills are undervalued.   Goodwin is not your typical player - and hence matchups with him vary.   If Goodwin's game was more like Scott Highmark or Erwin Claggett - 2 great former players but shooters, then a compliment of a non-shooter would work.   Last year, when Isabel did not make his shots from the perimeter, then a lineup of Isabell and Thatch helped clog the lane for Goodwin and French.   Yuri was not the answer tonight in that SIU-C did not even try to guard him - but dropped his man off to double on French.  

5.  Especially with French, Bell and Goodwin on the floor, we need a shooter.   Again, maybe a healthy Thatch is the answer (this would be ideal b/c of his defense as well), and if not then Perkins and Jimerson need to be considered.

6. Not giving up, at all, on Yuri but I suspect his wrists are bothering him - and he is more effective when we play up tempo -- not a slow down, half court team like tonight.  And I also like him coming off the bench and adding the spark.

And if anyone is interested in LAST year's box score.  https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/boxscore?id=116611

Edited by Clock_Tower

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Not on the thread's topic, but does anyone know exactly what Thatch's injury or illness is?   Hopefully a one week break helps get him back on the floor next Sunday.

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The hole we dug ourselves into had as much to do with bad D as bad offense. We gave up what 10 pts in 3:24

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43 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

A lot of good comments. Evolving team. Again, we were without Thatch and Hankton -- and yet we are 7-1.  And a different member of the team (other than the Big Two) stepped up - Perkins - especially in the first half.  And Jimerson is rounding into a fine and consistent player for our team.

A few more comments

1.  Bell can start or not start - but our going down by 10 had nothing to do with Bell.   

2.  The hole we dug ourselves into was the result of poor spacing, bad passes and guys trying to do too much.

3.  Thatch originally provide both defense and an outside shot.    Not sure if Thatch will continue to provide the outside shooting when he returns, and not sure Jacobs can provide the outside shooting each and every game, but we need a shooter in the lineup.

4.  Yes, Goodwin can rebound but his PG skills are undervalued.   Goodwin is not your typical player - and hence matchups with him vary.   If Goodwin's game was more like Scott Highmark or Erwin Claggett - 2 great former players but shooters, then a compliment of a non-shooter would work.   Last year, when Isabel did not make his shots from the perimeter, then a lineup of Isabell and Thatch helped clog the lane for Goodwin and Thatch.   Yuri was not the answer tonight in that SIU-C did not even try to guard him - but dropped his man off to double on French.  

5.  Especially with French, Bell and Goodwin on the floor, we need a shooter.   Again, maybe a healthy Thatch is the answer (this would be ideal b/c of his defense as well), and if not then Perkins and Jimerson need to be considered.

6. Not giving up, at all, on Yuri but I suspect his wrists are bothering him - and he is more effective when we play up tempo -- not a slow down, half court team like tonight.  And I also like him coming off the bench and adding the spark.

And if anyone is interested in LAST year's box score.  https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/boxscore?id=116611

Great post, deserves more than a 'reaction'.

My comments on selected one's of yours:

2) Some posters don't want to hear this.  They want to blame Player A or Player B.  Our starts haven't worked because of what you stated.

4) Two words, Triple Double.  Next question please.

5) I'm in the Wiz camp in that you need at least 8 games to draw any conclusions.  We have four players who have taken over 10 three's and are hitting over 30%.  Jimerson 43.9%, Weaver 37.5%, Goodwin 33.3% and Jacobs 30.4%.  Any of these guys can light it up on a given night.  

And per the link, some of the Flavor of the Day posters would have benched Bess after his SIU performance last year.  One we all know would have certainly thrown him under the bus.

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49 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I think you and I are on the same page about what rotation played the best tonight. I agree on Domask. I expect he may seek a transfer from SIU. Hope not for them, but you just know some P5 will whisper in his ear....and he's gone. Their other FR Jones looked pretty good as well. Just goes to show there are a lot of good players out there just waiting to be found. Domask seems like the kind of player Rickma would have offered. Hard to believe UW didn't extend an offer to the Wisconsin POY. Or did they? 

Domask is a reminder that recruiting is an art not a science, he did not receive any P5 offers and his recruiting chart is typical for basketball recruits with 14 offers all at the mid majorish level, Bucknell, American, Indiana State, Wright State, etc. It seems in basketball that mostly once a player starts getting offers at a certain level the offers stay at that level.

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2 hours ago, slu72 said:

We went with the starting five of the last 3 games and quickly fell into a hole. Bell only saw 3 minutes and sat. Yurimania played 21 minutes most coming in the first half. I like Yurimania, but it's time to come off the bench. I think the best starting lineup, because of Fred's apparent health problems, has to be JGood, Jacobs, French, Perkins, and Jimerson. Yes, Perkins may be a bit of a liability on D, same for Jimerson. But they are scorers.

 

72.  That's quite a post by you.  Did not go unnoticed.  

As you mention, though, we are only 8 games into the season.   Yuri had the initial success - and he has not lost the skills and talents which impressed us.   Instead, it is obvious that teams have now made an adjustment to slow Yuri down.  Adjustments will soon be made on the others who have shown success - most recently Perkins.  Instead, it is time for Yuri to heal, to learn from these first few games and then to make the necessary adjustments.

Yurimania will soon strike back!!

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3 hours ago, RiseAndGrind said:

I am too lazy to look it up - but what was the general consenus on a "good" 3 point percentage for GJ? Currently sitting at 44% after 8 games. Damn good in my eyes for a Frosh. 18-41.

Not entirely positive, but didn't someone predict he'd shoot 50%? Not out of the realm of possibility...

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31 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Not entirely positive, but didn't someone predict he'd shoot 50%? Not out of the realm of possibility...

If Gibson shoots 50% from three then he’s not taking enough 3s. 

 

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8 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

72.  That's quite a post by you.  Did not go unnoticed.  

As you mention, though, we are only 8 games into the season.   Yuri had the initial success - and he has not lost the skills and talents which impressed us.   Instead, it is obvious that teams have now made an adjustment to slow Yuri down.  Adjustments will soon be made on the others who have shown success - most recently Perkins.  Instead, it is time for Yuri to heal, to learn from these first few games and then to make the necessary adjustments.

Yurimania will soon strike back!!

No doubt he will. I have not lost faith in Yurimania one bit. But believe we need some scorers on the floor to open things up for JGood and French right from the opening bell. 

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55 minutes ago, slu72 said:

No doubt he will. I have not lost faith in Yurimania one bit. But believe we need some scorers on the floor to open things up for JGood and French right from the opening bell. 

Yuri has some big gaps that he will need to work on to address. First and foremost is his outside shooting. If teams can sage 7+ feet off him defensively, then it presents a problem for the whole team. Second is his tendency to always go right. Again, teams will scout his strong preference, so he needs to get equally comfortable driving both ways. Finally, he still needs to work on his decision making as the quality of the opponent improves. In the last couple weeks, he has learned that what work against Eastern Washington won't work against everyone.

He is a great player with some rare and unique abilities, but his upside is much higher if he focuses on improving in these areas. 

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9 minutes ago, davidnark said:

Yuri has some big gaps that he will need to work on to address. First and foremost is his outside shooting. If teams can sage 7+ feet off him defensively, then it presents a problem for the whole team. Second is his tendency to always go right. Again, teams will scout his strong preference, so he needs to get equally comfortable driving both ways. Finally, he still needs to work on his decision making as the quality of the opponent improves. In the last couple weeks, he has learned that what work against Eastern Washington won't work against everyone.

He is a great player with some rare and unique abilities, but his upside is much higher if he focuses on improving in these areas. 

Agree with above. He's being mentored by a pretty good PG in his day. So, I'm sure these issues will be addressed. Especially his 3 pt shot. 

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We don’t necessarily need all the scorers out on the floor to start the game. What we do need is some variety in how we attack, and how we initiate our offense.

We run our best offensive sets when we wheel around a forward in the wrinkle area. We don’t do well early trying to pound the ball in to Bell or French. We don’t do well passing it around the horn, waiting for a defender to fall asleep on a 3 pt shooter.

Opposing teams will stack the paint on French. They will stack the right side on Collins, aggressively closing out his driving and passing lanes.

The good news - every game Ford has some elements the players have thrown into play. SIU saw Jimerson hoist a couple quick threes. No fake, no misdirection, no dribble, just a catch and shoot. One out of bounds play had French pivot and face block his man and Jimerson’s, so Jimerson could high wheel over to the right sideline for an easy clean three.
 

Finally, Jacobs showed he can shake his man off a double high screen by shoulder diving into the screen. Everyone needs to pick up on this, as we should get a couple threes a game on these brush offs.

Jacobs also showed a nice pg moment when he grabbed a 50/50 contested loose ball, and immediately spun to body shield the SIU guard. That is textbook ball  security.

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10 hours ago, MichaelC said:

Domask is a reminder that recruiting is an art not a science, he did not receive any P5 offers and his recruiting chart is typical for basketball recruits with 14 offers all at the mid majorish level, Bucknell, American, Indiana State, Wright State, etc. It seems in basketball that mostly once a player starts getting offers at a certain level the offers stay at that level.

it's another classic example of people being enamored with athleticism over basketball skill.....

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20 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

We don’t necessarily need all the scorers out on the floor to start the game. What we do need is some variety in how we attack, and how we initiate our offense.

We run our best offensive sets when we wheel around a forward in the wrinkle area. We don’t do well early trying to pound the ball in to Bell or French. We don’t do well passing it around the horn, waiting for a defender to fall asleep on a 3 pt shooter.

Opposing teams will stack the paint on French. They will stack the right side on Collins, aggressively closing out his driving and passing lanes.

The good news - every game Ford has some elements the players have thrown into play. SIU saw Jimerson hoist a couple quick threes. No fake, no misdirection, no dribble, just a catch and shoot. One out of bounds play had French pivot and face block his man and Jimerson’s, so Jimerson could high wheel over to the right sideline for an easy clean three.
 

Finally, Jacobs showed he can shake his man off a double high screen by shoulder diving into the screen. Everyone needs to pick up on this, as we should get a couple threes a game on these brush offs.

Jacobs also showed a nice pg moment when he grabbed a 50/50 contested loose ball, and immediately spun to body shield the SIU guard. That is textbook ball  security.

i know i am apparently in the minority, but i dont know what a wrinkle area is, at least in a basketball game.   i know taj and skip are showing more wrinkles below their eyes, but i dont think that is what you are talking about?

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16 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i know i am apparently in the minority, but i dont know what a wrinkle area is, at least in a basketball game.   i know taj and skip are showing more wrinkles below their eyes, but i dont think that is what you are talking about?

When Hasahn sets a screen for Jacobs' man, the opposing big hedges/shows, leaving an open space in the FT line / high-post area. I think that's the space that Sheltie is referring to. Jacobs did a good job of throwing a nice pocket pass to Hasahn in that area a couple of times. 

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30 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

it's another classic example of people being enamored with athleticism over basketball skill.....

Oh my gosh, How many Stars, where is he Rated.............

The man can Hoop!

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I think we need to do something different with the starting line-up, but the biggest problem yesterday at the start of the game was going 2-7 in the paint in the first 8 minutes.  We got some good looks, but we just didn't finish.

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