It’s time to talk about our forwards.

[glazedandconfused]

Let me start by saying, I don't think our team has leadership/motivation issues any more so than most other teams or previous SLU teams.

IMO, If players on the team aren't motivated/not giving effort, that's 95% the player's fault and 5% the leader's (coach or captain). Goodwin has been leading by example, but clapping or screaming or other motivational tactics aren't going to solve much if any. 

 

Don't take my %s above to be exact, just saying the player's themselves should be held accountable.

[3star_recruit]

56 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Well to me that also speaks to Ford trying to control the narrative. Like I said if he stretches the truth or spins the truth on one thing you have to take everything with at least a little skepticism. The fact is that we laid an egg to HP and if it wasn’t for Gibson and Goodwin we lose. Just because he scored when we needed doesn’t equate leadership. You gotta help rally your guys to work harder for rebounds and be tougher. 

If you could give an example of a real leader in the A10, maybe we could follow you better.

[NH]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

Well to me that also speaks to Ford trying to control the narrative. Like I said if he stretches the truth or spins the truth on one thing you have to take everything with at least a little skepticism. The fact is that we laid an egg to HP and if it wasn’t for Gibson and Goodwin we lose. Just because he scored when we needed doesn’t equate leadership. You gotta help rally your guys to work harder for rebounds and be tougher. 

What exactly is wrong with our leadership? In two games now (Valpo and HP), we've blown big leads but also held on at the end. The fact that we were able to weather those storms I think speaks positively to the leadership/mentality of the group. I'm sure it could be better, but it's not like this team has been crumbling.

More broadly (not specifically directed at you '05), Last I checked we have a team with 1 senior, 7 newcomers and 3 new starters. That team has started the season by winning 4 of 5, with the loss coming against the #12 team in the country. All of our wins have been by double-digits and we are 3-2 against the spread. I'm not saying everything is perfect and I do have some structural concerns about our squad, but overall the start to the season has been roughly in line with expectations. It feels like some people think it has been a disaster.

[drkelsey55]

When French proceeds to drive the lane into 3 defenders, he needs to know where his shooters are so he can lead the team in assits instend of missed bunnies.

 

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

Well to me that also speaks to Ford trying to control the narrative. Like I said if he stretches the truth or spins the truth on one thing you have to take everything with at least a little skepticism. The fact is that we laid an egg to HP and if it wasn’t for Gibson and Goodwin we lose. Just because he scored when we needed doesn’t equate leadership. You gotta help rally your guys to work harder for rebounds and be tougher. 

The only thing that makes sense here is "...to me..."

[Littlebill]

10 minutes ago, drkelsey55 said:

When French proceeds to drive the lane into 3 defenders, he needs to know where his shooters are so he can lead the team in assits instend of missed bunnies.

 

I think he made this change mid-game on Wednesday. He had some bad turnovers early because of the way HP was collapsing. Then after a bit started to penetrate and looked to really kick the ball in and out

[glazedandconfused]

For what it's worth. French has improved in pretty much every non FT % category from last 2 years. His turnover rate is down from last 2 years and his assist rate is up. He's being asked to do way more for this offense (Usage Rate up to 27% !) which usually would lead to a decrease in shooting % or an increase in Turnover rate and that just hasn't happened yet. 

His Usage rate is 2nd highest of the decade for SLU. (Milik Yarborough hit 28 his freshman year.)

yes FT shooting is a problem (it was last year too) but outside of that, French has significantly improved.

[slu72]

23 hours ago, NH said:

We’re also replacing Bess with a combination of Thatch/Jacobs/Perkins, which further sacrifices some size/length.

Small ball is great on offense, but it’s defense/rebounding where you get hurt. I’m not sure this team has the toughness or athleticism to be a really good small ball defensive team.

I'd say as we move forward Jimerson replaces Bess. He's not as good on D, few players are, but I thought he did a respectable job against HP. Granted, that's not saying much as the competition will only get tougher down the road. I'm just hoping his offense can make up for the D shortfall. I thought Hargrove would be the answer at the 4 alongside French. Two things I was misinformed on; first, his height I thought he was like 6'7", and second, his basketball acumen was higher than it is. Therefore, we are left with Hankton, who seems awfully fragile, and Perkins who could provide points but how about some rebounds and defense?  Bell is a space eater or a jammer. Hopefully, he's the man to keep French out of foul trouble just by helping out against opponents' fives. Take the big guy from Dayton, does anyone care if Bell pounds on him and fouls out? Nope, just as long as he's not getting shots at 3 point plays. 

Yes, it would have been good to land either a GT PF or skilled FR, say a FR version of French. Didn't happen, so we have to play the cards we've been dealt. 

[slu72]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

pretty confusing reply.    GBL defends/points out coach ford complimenting goodwin, you counter with "if it wasnt for gibson and goodwin"..........

how does goodwin "rally your guys"?     explain how the real leader should have did this "rally"?   i am learning so much about leadership here that i am sure i can personally apply.  thanks so much.

I guess he could take the Billiken 05 Leadership course and learn how to be loud and obnoxious. 

[RUBillsFan]

2 hours ago, glazedandconfused said:

For what it's worth. French has improved in pretty much every non FT % category from last 2 years. His turnover rate is down from last 2 years and his assist rate is up. He's being asked to do way more for this offense (Usage Rate up to 27% !) which usually would lead to a decrease in shooting % or an increase in Turnover rate and that just hasn't happened yet. 

His Usage rate is 2nd highest of the decade for SLU. (Milik Yarborough hit 28 his freshman year.)

yes FT shooting is a problem (it was last year too) but outside of that, French has significantly improved.

The problem with French having such a high usage rate is that his poor FT shooting then has an even larger impact on our offense.

You seem like a numbers guy and have been providing some stats that haven't seen anywhere else.  I'd be curious to see our points per possession numbers for all possessions excluding French FTs versus those possessions ending in French FTs.  I'd imagine that those numbers would tell opposing teams to foul Hasahn every single time down the floor.

[WVBilliken]

2 hours ago, slu72 said:

I'd say as we move forward Jimerson replaces Bess. He's not as good on D, few players are, but I thought he did a respectable job against HP. Granted, that's not saying much as the competition will only get tougher down the road. I'm just hoping his offense can make up for the D shortfall. I thought Hargrove would be the answer at the 4 alongside French. Two things I was misinformed on; first, his height I thought he was like 6'7", and second, his basketball acumen was higher than it is. Therefore, we are left with Hankton, who seems awfully fragile, and Perkins who could provide points but how about some rebounds and defense?  Bell is a space eater or a jammer. Hopefully, he's the man to keep French out of foul trouble just by helping out against opponents' fives. Take the big guy from Dayton, does anyone care if Bell pounds on him and fouls out? Nope, just as long as he's not getting shots at 3 point plays. 

Yes, it would have been good to land either a GT PF or skilled FR, say a FR version of French. Didn't happen, so we have to play the cards we've been 

So SLU plays Villanova style.  They won 2 National Titles playing a big and a combination of quick scoring guards and small forwards most of the time, all who could handle the ball and attack the basket and/or shoot..

Four games in Bell looking okay.  Hankton is not the answer.  He does not seem to have that big man attitude.  Love to see him prove me wrong.  But Bell, forget the offense, if he can defend and rebound at a decent level by conference time for 10 to 15 minutes a game all will be good.  A few putbacks and layups is all the offense we need from Bell.  Clog the middle and protect the rim Jimmy.

[glazedandconfused]

31 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

The problem with French having such a high usage rate is that his poor FT shooting then has an even larger impact on our offense.

You seem like a numbers guy and have been providing some stats that haven't seen anywhere else.  I'd be curious to see our points per possession numbers for all possessions excluding French FTs versus those possessions ending in French FTs.  I'd imagine that those numbers would tell opposing teams to foul Hasahn every single time down the floor.

There's a little breakdown showing that his FTs cost us more as he's being used more.

Takeaway from this is:

- 1st column shows he's definitely improved from field so far

- 2nd column shows that he has still improved even after accounting for FT....though not by as much

- 3rd shows that the FTs will continue to cost him more and more as his usage increase/gets to line more

If French could even be a 50% Ft shooter, this would effectively negate the difference above.

 

[slufanskip]

I think the idea that we can't count on Bell offensively is a bit premature. He's a big that's only 5 games into his frosh season. I'm not sure we'll see more than 20 mpg on a normal basis by the end of the season. however, imo he has shown some nice offensive moves. If he can get up to 20 mpg by mid Jan or so, I'd bet he'll have a couple of double digit games and probably average 8-9ppg. He scored 8 in 13 min vs Seton Hall which is the biggest team we've played. Not world beating numbers but a good start to his Billiken career as a big. I'm very high on his potential. 

[HoosierPal]

21 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I think the idea that we can't count on Bell offensively is a bit premature. He's a big that's only 5 games into his frosh season. I'm not sure we'll see more than 20 mpg on a normal basis by the end of the season. however, imo he has shown some nice offensive moves. If he can get up to 20 mpg by mid Jan or so, I'd bet he'll have a couple of double digit games and probably average 8-9ppg. He scored 8 in 13 min vs Seton Hall which is the biggest team we've played. Not world beating numbers but a good start to his Billiken career as a big. I'm very high on his potential. 

I agree on Bell's potential. 

In his first season, Ian Vouyoukas, in 21 games averaged 10.5 mpg, 2.2 ppg, shot 39%, gathered 1.7 rpg and blocked 3 shots total.  He turned out okay.  Sometimes it takes 'bigs' a while to get used to D1.

[Sheltiedave]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

The problem with French having such a high usage rate is that his poor FT shooting then has an even larger impact on our offense.

You seem like a numbers guy and have been providing some stats that haven't seen anywhere else.  I'd be curious to see our points per possession numbers for all possessions excluding French FTs versus those possessions ending in French FTs.  I'd imagine that those numbers would tell opposing teams to foul Hasahn every single time down the floor.

At 70 possessions, we would have roughly 35 points. Only problem is ....they have only 13 players; you need 14 to cover 70 fouls.

[RUBillsFan]

33 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I think the idea that we can't count on Bell offensively is a bit premature. He's a big that's only 5 games into his frosh season. I'm not sure we'll see more than 20 mpg on a normal basis by the end of the season. however, imo he has shown some nice offensive moves. If he can get up to 20 mpg by mid Jan or so, I'd bet he'll have a couple of double digit games and probably average 8-9ppg. He scored 8 in 13 min vs Seton Hall which is the biggest team we've played. Not world beating numbers but a good start to his Billiken career as a big. I'm very high on his potential. 

Minuscule sample size, but so far Bell is struggling from the line nearly as much as French.  Just like French that is going to limit his offensive upside significantly.

[billiken_roy]

34 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I think the idea that we can't count on Bell offensively is a bit premature. He's a big that's only 5 games into his frosh season. I'm not sure we'll see more than 20 mpg on a normal basis by the end of the season. however, imo he has shown some nice offensive moves. If he can get up to 20 mpg by mid Jan or so, I'd bet he'll have a couple of double digit games and probably average 8-9ppg. He scored 8 in 13 min vs Seton Hall which is the biggest team we've played. Not world beating numbers but a good start to his Billiken career as a big. I'm very high on his potential. 

let's not forget jimmy bell played on one of the best high school teams in the nation and was a backup then and didnt see the floor much.  this guy is as raw as a college player can be.   add his amazing body transformation that is still in progress, i think we have no idea what he might turn into, but i sure like the potential.   plus anyone that has the discipline to lose the weight that he has lost in the last 2 years we know has quite the fortitude.   i say lay off jimmy and watch him grow into a monster.  enjoy the ride.

[slufanskip]

6 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Minuscule sample size, but so far Bell is struggling from the line nearly as much as French.  Just like French that is going to limit his offensive upside significantly.

I'll take the significant upside limitation if it results in French's numbers. And a really small sample size as he's had only 2 games where he went to the line more than once and he's at .500 in those 2. I have no blue Kool-Aid expectations that he'll be a 70% + f/t shooter. Bigs as a whole don't shoot well, but if he can get to 60% + I'll be happy. 

[slufanskip]

10 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

let's not forget jimmy bell played on one of the best high school teams in the nation and was a backup then and didnt see the floor much.  this guy is as raw as a college player can be.   add his amazing body transformation that is still in progress, i think we have no idea what he might turn into, but i sure like the potential.   plus anyone that has the discipline to lose the weight that he has lost in the last 2 years we know has quite the fortitude.   i say lay off jimmy and watch him grow into a monster.  enjoy the ride.

What I've noticed has been his footwork around the basket with the ball. What has hurt him is bringing the ball down a bit when guarded by smaller guys and not being strong enough with the ball in his hands. He's had it knocked away too often for me, but I also see this as a problem he'll overcome and overcome rather quickly

[dennis_w]

16 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

let's not forget jimmy bell played on one of the best high school teams in the nation and was a backup then and didnt see the floor much.  this guy is as raw as a college player can be.   add his amazing body transformation that is still in progress, i think we have no idea what he might turn into, but i sure like the potential.   plus anyone that has the discipline to lose the weight that he has lost in the last 2 years we know has quite the fortitude.   i say lay off jimmy and watch him grow into a monster.  enjoy the ride.

well said roy, when he is an upper classman will be very glad THE LOCOMOTIVE is a billiken

[almaman]

1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

I think the idea that we can't count on Bell offensively is a bit premature. He's a big that's only 5 games into his frosh season. I'm not sure we'll see more than 20 mpg on a normal basis by the end of the season. however, imo he has shown some nice offensive moves. If he can get up to 20 mpg by mid Jan or so, I'd bet he'll have a couple of double digit games and probably average 8-9ppg. He scored 8 in 13 min vs Seton Hall which is the biggest team we've played. Not world beating numbers but a good start to his Billiken career as a big. I'm very high on his potential. 

plus he's a freshman, we've seen a lot worse big men here regardless of class.