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What is the Story on Hargrove


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1 minute ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, Perkins aggressively switched on screens, and he came up within half a foot on his man at the charity stripe, which is a marked level of effort higher than the first two games.

Hargrove got game time and popped on effort, and showed he understood the out of bounds X cut play from the key. All he can do is continue to pick up and execute plays in game, and max his effort in practice. The time will follow the learning and effort curves, sometimes in linear fashion, sometimes driven by foul trouble, sometimes by catching fire.

Ford has done an outstanding job to date with an impossible task of cat herding. To get everyone going the same direction, salting playing time across the board, and having almost everyone popping in some aspect in at least one game this early on is superlative coaching.

The depth and competition in practice is really showing out in game time. We still are going to get kicked in some games, and turn wins into losses with our abysmal FT shooting, but the development can be seen by all.

im glad you saw them do something on a couple of plays.   now start watching the times they dont have the ball.   you can do it. 

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Roy, I’m really only worried about Perkins on d. His value on o is the elbow shot. If he can hit 2 or 3 a game, and nail them in such desultory fashion, it is a great benefit for French down low, the spot up three pt shooters, a pass back to Collins, or a dime to a cutter. Keep in mind he had 6 pts + 3 assists, so he would be a plus time in many games.

Jimerson is the shooter that is much more adept at motion than Perkins, and is the one I would first get up to speed on motion concepts without the ball. Ford is working all his guards on these concepts, but not necessarily rolling everything out at once in games.

Hargrove is learning. He has the talent and energy, and he is buying into Ford’s system. He is working hard to harness his energy in a positive direction. It will only improve us that much more as his playtime expands from earning and winning it.

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1 hour ago, Old guy said:

The amount of time Hargrove played in the last game is not an issue, the good fact is that he played and he performed at a reasonable level. He will be used more frequently from now on, same for Bell.

 

It helped their case that we were up by 20+ for stretches of the 2nd half. It’s not realistic to expect that except against perhaps Highpoint  and Bethune.  

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

i think for th above to be true, i.e. more frequent time, we would have needed to see they outperformed the players perceived to be above them.   i dont think they necessarily did that.   

i also would like to see hargrove and perkins be more intense when they dont have the ball.   i.e. defense, moving on offense, etc.   didnt see that last night.   when they had the ball good stuff happened.  when they didnt they were somewhat wanderers

bell has the advantage of no competition.   unless we want to play small all the time with only french in the lane, bell has to play.   his 10-15 minutes a game preserves french's fouls somewhat.  

Roy.   That was only our 3rd game of the year -- 4 if you count the exhibition game.    Hargrove entered the exhibition game AFTER the walkon (HIghtower), then did not play the 1st regular season game (though Hightower did), played 32 second (and in the first half) in the second game of the season (ahead of Hightower though only 32 seconds) and again last night ahead of Hightower - and for longer than Hightower. Call it a start - or dismiss it, but Hargrove now appears to be ahead of Hightower.   As to him being ahead of our guards?   I just don't see Hargrove playing the 3 at all this year.    And while he can knock down a 3 pointer (like Hankton can), I would prefer neither of them shoot the 3 unless the defense is truly not guarding them.   My point is that Hargrove's competition appears more to French, Bell, Hankton and Diarra than the guards - so there is definite minutes available for Hargrove to get more minutes (and to surpass both Bell and Hankton).   

As to your comments about Perkins and Hargrove, yes, I had hoped that both would be further along by now.   They aren't and Ford is doing the right thing.   By the start of the conference games, hopefully they will show big improvement.   If not enough, then hopefully by the midpoint of the conference games, and if not, then by the A10 Tournament.

As to Bell, he does have competition -- French, Hankton, Diarra and Hargrove.

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25 minutes ago, Bills_06 said:

To answer the OP question, here is the story on Hargrove.  Link

Did you know he had 5 coaches in 4 years in high school?

Sounds like he was disappointed at first but hopefully he isn't lying when he says he understands.  His time will come.  

Thank you for posting this.  I dare anyone to find a kid with a better attitude than the one TJ seemingly has. Can’t wait for him to put it all together.

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10 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Any way to copy the article and post it here? It seems I've run thru my freebies at the PD. I don't even get offered a free pass by doing a survey. I guess I'm going to have to break down at some point and subscribe. 

I'm pretty sure if you're using Google Chrome as your web browser all you need to do is open a new browser window in "Incognito Mode" by pressing Ctrl + Shift + N and you'll be able to view the article even if you've exceeded your PD freebies.

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7 hours ago, slu72 said:

Any way to copy the article and post it here? It seems I've run thru my freebies at the PD. I don't even get offered a free pass by doing a survey. I guess I'm going to have to break down at some point and subscribe. 

slu72 I have problems with the PD internet website too. I look at the articles every day. If I get the stupid I have to pay to red the article...I then go to my iPhone to read the article. I hear your frustration but where there is a will there is a way.

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1 hour ago, Schasz said:

slu72 I have problems with the PD internet website too. I look at the articles every day. If I get the stupid I have to pay to red the article...I then go to my iPhone to read the article. I hear your frustration but where there is a will there is a way.

Incognito mode worked for me.  Just had to answer a short poll to read.  Cheap price to pay.

But in a nutshell covered 5 hs coaches in 4 years.  Made it tougher to acclimate to the college game.  Was down at first but kept good attitude and working hard.  Coming along and expecting to have a big impact on team.

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I believe what we'll get from Hargrove is 2-2.5 years (or more) of senior-year Maurice Jeffers or 1-1.5 years (or more) of senior-year Javon Bess — and I guess there might not be that much difference between Jeffers and Bess, considering Maurice did get drafted in the 2nd round of the 2001 NBA draft.  Hargrove's opportunity to capitalize on his learning curve will be longer than those of either of the players the Bills had for just two years.

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4 hours ago, Schasz said:

slu72 I have problems with the PD internet website too. I look at the articles every day. If I get the stupid I have to pay to red the article...I then go to my iPhone to read the article. I hear your frustration but where there is a will there is a way.

I get it on my iPhone and laptop. They've got me nailed. 

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Ok, 5 games in and still very rare or no Hargrove sightings. I understand the idea that his BB foundation has cracks, but his talent does seem ideally suited for the push it style Ford is establishing. My guess would be his problem is D is limiting his minutes. I hope he's working hard on that aspect, because it seems from all his vids this kid would be an assasin in a fast paced offense. 

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23 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Ok, 5 games in and still very rare or no Hargrove sightings. I understand the idea that his BB foundation has cracks, but his talent does seem ideally suited for the push it style Ford is establishing. My guess would be his problem is D is limiting his minutes. I hope he's working hard on that aspect, because it seems from all his vids this kid would be an assasin in a fast paced offense. 

The pressure defense hasn't been nearly effective the last 3 games. We've been forced into more of a halfcourt game. It will be hard for Hargrove to get minutes under that scenario.

 

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37 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The pressure defense hasn't been nearly effective the last 3 games. We've been forced into more of a halfcourt game. It will be hard for Hargrove to get minutes under that scenario.

 

I can see that. Can he be worse on D than Perkins? 

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Here is an honest question about Hargrove. So far he has taken 9 shots and made 4. All 4 were dunks. He took one three pointer and being kind, he missed it. I believe his other 4 misses were at the rim. 


So my question is does he have a jump shot?  Perkins elbow jumpers are sweet; can TJ do the same?  


We have not been running like I envisioned. So far we have 4 fast break points per game more than last season. I can envision TJ as a trailer on a break but so far that piece of our offense isn’t happening. 


So who does TJ take minutes away from?  Can he defend better than Thatch or Jacobs?  So far you can’t take a three point shooter out (Gibby and Weaver) and have TJ replace that option and Perkins is our best chance at scoring from 10 feet. TJ hasn’t shown that shot. 

We aren’t playing a “havoc” press so I’m not seeing our wings getting tired. 
I’m interested in a rational response....who sits if TJ plays more. 

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6 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Here is an honest question about Hargrove. So far he has taken 9 shots and made 4. All 4 were dunks. He took one three pointer and being kind, he missed it. I believe his other 4 misses were at the rim. 


So my question is does he have a jump shot?  Perkins elbow jumpers are sweet; can TJ do the same?  


We have not been running like I envisioned. So far we have 4 fast break points per game more than last season. I can envision TJ as a trailer on a break but so far that piece of our offense isn’t happening. 


So who does TJ take minutes away from?  Can he defend better than Thatch or Jacobs?  So far you can’t take a three point shooter out (Gibby and Weaver) and have TJ replace that option and Perkins is our best chance at scoring from 10 feet. TJ hasn’t shown that shot. 

We aren’t playing a “havoc” press so I’m not seeing our wings getting tired. 
I’m interested in a rational response....who sits if TJ plays more. 

It didn't count for the books but he did go 1/1 from 3 in the Exhibition game 

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I think Perkins’ defense has been fine. My guess is that’s Travis agrees based on the crunch time minutes Perkins got last game. Ironically, where we need Perkins to improve is his shooting, which we all know was his calling card in JUCO. I maintain he could be be an x-factor this year.

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imo they are about the same on defense and rebounding.   hargrove i dont recall has made a shot that wasnt a dunk yet, while perkins has shown some ability to score in a few different ways with the ball.   that might be the difference maker. 

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3 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

Here is an honest question about Hargrove. So far he has taken 9 shots and made 4. All 4 were dunks. He took one three pointer and being kind, he missed it. I believe his other 4 misses were at the rim. 


So my question is does he have a jump shot?  Perkins elbow jumpers are sweet; can TJ do the same?  


We have not been running like I envisioned. So far we have 4 fast break points per game more than last season. I can envision TJ as a trailer on a break but so far that piece of our offense isn’t happening. 


So who does TJ take minutes away from?  Can he defend better than Thatch or Jacobs?  So far you can’t take a three point shooter out (Gibby and Weaver) and have TJ replace that option and Perkins is our best chance at scoring from 10 feet. TJ hasn’t shown that shot. 

We aren’t playing a “havoc” press so I’m not seeing our wings getting tired. 
I’m interested in a rational response....who sits if TJ plays more. 

I defer to those who have truly seen Hargrove play - and play not only for his high school games - but also play in practices this year, for his prior AAU teams, etc. but Hargrove appears to be more of a scorer or slasher who can do many things and score many different ways --  inside and outside.   We know he is athletic and can rebound and dunk, understand that he has a nice perimeter shot where he can, no doubt, make 3 point shots - but not sure if he is/would be considered a true 3 point shooter.   At least to me, similar guys appear to be Thatch, Jacobs, Goodwin - each who appear to have better dribbling/guard skills.   At the same time, the athletic, roving, scorer role now appears to be filled by Goodwin, Jacobs and Thatch.   At the same time, he has forward skills which those guys do not have (and he apparently has a perimeter  shot (which French has not shown but which Hankton may also have) and the ability to take a few dribbles, slash to the basket, score and rebound - which French has truly added to his game this year.   At the same time, his background does not suggest that he is a "back to the basket" kind of guy - and yet he is working on it.  Right now, his height and strength are 2 challenges he is now working on - and I believe will conquer.  Though for now, French, Bell and Hankton have greater height and possibly greater strength on the inside and appear to be ahead of him on the depth chart.  Height is only one aspect.  Donnie Dobbs (6'2") and Jeff Harris (6'4") were certainly "back to the basket" guys.   And for most part, Dwayne Evans was too --- 3 of our better guys over the years.  

And that leave Perkins, who also appears to be learning the offense/D1 college game and who appears to have a more unique skill set - along with his extra 2 years of experience.  At the same time, I believe that whoever can shoot and make 3 pointers, will play and play a lot.   And in this regard, everyone on the team is competition to Hargrove.  Minutes will be obtained if he can outplay Thatch and Jacobs as a slasher/guard/shooter,  or outshoot Jimerson and Weaver from the 3 point line, or outplay Hankton and Perkins on the inside.

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we'll see more of hargrove for a few reasons.  There will be games where refs are whistle happy.  That will happen, it always does and nothing can be done. As the reason goes on fatigue ramps up, lazy fouls happen.  Also its a long season, players get banged up, get sick etc. Last I could see coach shaking things up later in conference, like I said its a long season, sometimes you have to bring in new energy. 

 

I dont understand the "play hargrove more" argument.  Coach isnt holding him out for any other reason than hes just not ready nor better than perkins atm.  Its quite simple. 

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