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Practice Observations: Warm-up for open practice TODAY!


DoctorB

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After  reading Torch's comments about what he saw Bell do in 4 prior practices, and having seen his problems when facing a very active defense I have been wondering. If it is a problem with ball handling and poor hand control when faced with defense, this may be improved by play time and practice. I think he will get it. He may not be able to fully take over for French at the beginning of the season without causing a fair number of turnovers from lost balls, but he can defend and he can block. So, let me put it this way, I think he can play and gain experience, as long as the benefits he provides from defending and blocking offset the detrimental side of his hand clumsiness and ball handling causing turnovers. I think we need to give him a chance to get a lot better than he is now, which I think he will do. I do not think the situation is as bad as you say in #1, he is not next best, he is good in his own ways and bad in his own ways. This has to be sorted out.

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Sounds like the summary for all these reports would be as follows: 

1) While talented and athletic, none of our FR are prime time ready. All of them are WIPs, so it's wait and see time. 

2) Perkins is not the impact scorer we thought he'd be largely due to lacking in BB knowledge. Hope he's a quick learner. 

3) Weaver's contribution is hard to figure out at this point. 

4) Not much noticeable change in the games of our returning Big3. However, it appears Fred's offensive output will increase. I think we were all hoping to JGood taking 10 3's in the scrimmage and hitting 3 of them. Doesn't seem to be the case. FT ability an unknown. 

5) Jacobs appears to have made major strides forward. Expectations for him are higher than we thought. Hankton's game could surprise as well, but then again maybe not so much. 

Bottom line: Still a lot of questions to be answered. Nothing new for Billiken fans, since we enter most seasons in this mode. 

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30 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Early on the board we had a discussion about the 3pt line being moved back how it would impact the % made - did anyone notice if the line moved back had any big impact?

Only thing I took note of was I think one player took a shot with a toe on the line. Hard to say if that was due to the line moved or just where he decided to plant his foot.

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Both the old and the new line were painted on the Chaifetz's court. Jimerson and many of the others did not have (or seemed to have) a marked degree of difficulty scoring 3 pts. However, I was not paying attention as to who stepped on the new line or not. There may be some issues in this regard.

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6 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Exactly. Since when is a 6'7 215lb jump shooter qualified to play the 5? I understand that we're all pleased Hankton has put in the work in the weight room but the desire to make the Dance a year early has driven some folks to derangement.

He cannot play a classic 5, but it isn't uncommon to see top D1 teams play without a center or even a true power forward for long stretches. 

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4 hours ago, Old guy said:

Both the old and the new line were painted on the Chaifetz's court. Jimerson and many of the others did not have (or seemed to have) a marked degree of difficulty scoring 3 pts. However, I was not paying attention as to who stepped on the new line or not. There may be some issues in this regard.

I don't think the line was moved for the women.  If that is correct then you will still see the old line on all courts.

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6 hours ago, cheeseman said:

Early on the board we had a discussion about the 3pt line being moved back how it would impact the % made - did anyone notice if the line moved back had any big impact?

There is no way to tell in a practice when no one is keeping stats on 3pt shooting.

I will be tracking this as the season goes on. Unfortunately , I will have to ditch 12 years of 3pt stats and start over again. The line was moved back in 2007 because  the 3 was "taking over the game". They are moving it back again because we are now back to where we were in 2006.

In the very small  sample from the NIT where it was tried out on an experimental basis.  ....Shooting was down at the start and started to recovery by the end of the tourney. The final teams were about the same as they had been all year even though the numbers for all the teams were down for the whole tourney. Reg season 35.2%...2019 NIT 33% The analysis of the results were unclear....Had the players adjusted during the tourney...or was it because the better teams  with the better shooters were left at the end....Unknown...small sample size with too many variables. Also the last time the change was made in 2007...The overall season went from 2006= 35.2% to 34.3% in 07...again by the end of the season most teams were almost back to their normal average.

My expectation is that numbers will be down at the start of the season and get better as the season goes  and continue to get better in future seasons. At some point in the not too distant future the numbers will be equal again.

As for the Bills 3 pt shooting ....our  grade should go up....you can't go lower than last year's F-.

 

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5 hours ago, davidnark said:

He cannot play a classic 5, but it isn't uncommon to see top D1 teams play without a center or even a true power forward for long stretches. 

i agree, if they indeed are going 40 minute pressure i could see hankton on the back end for short periods of time

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9 hours ago, slu72 said:

Sounds like the summary for all these reports would be as follows: 

1) While talented and athletic, none of our FR are prime time ready. All of them are WIPs, so it's wait and see time. 

2) Perkins is not the impact scorer we thought he'd be largely due to lacking in BB knowledge. Hope he's a quick learner. 

3) Weaver's contribution is hard to figure out at this point. 

4) Not much noticeable change in the games of our returning Big3. However, it appears Fred's offensive output will increase. I think we were all hoping to JGood taking 10 3's in the scrimmage and hitting 3 of them. Doesn't seem to be the case. FT ability an unknown. 

5) Jacobs appears to have made major strides forward. Expectations for him are higher than we thought. Hankton's game could surprise as well, but then again maybe not so much. 

Bottom line: Still a lot of questions to be answered. Nothing new for Billiken fans, since we enter most seasons in this mode. 

72

You are one of our more optimistic posters, but frankly, your summary is a little depressing. Accurate but depressing.

Then again, one practice does not a season make. At the same time, my optimism has largely been based upon our more “experienced” but new players (Weaver and Perkins) as opposed to our brand new freshmen.  But if these guys are not ready to go from day one, it will be interesting. 
With that said, the Wiz makes a great point - we shot a grade of an F- from 3 point line last year, the Foreman we saw as a senior last year was limited and certainly replaceable with depth, we also lacked any real bench/depth and our offense  did not click until 2/3’s of the year was over. 

This year, maybe it will be the depth, and the up tempo play, that will carry us this year? 

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14 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

72

You are one of our more optimistic posters, but frankly, your summary is a little depressing. Accurate but depressing.

Then again, one practice does not a season make. At the same time, my optimism has largely been based upon our more “experienced” but new players (Weaver and Perkins) as opposed to our brand new freshmen.  But if these guys are not ready to go from day one, it will be interesting. 
With that said, the Wiz makes a great point - we shot a grade of an F- from 3 point line last year, the Foreman we saw as a senior last year was limited and certainly replaceable with depth, we also lacked any real bench/depth and our offense  did not click until 2/3’s of the year was over. 

This year, maybe it will be the depth, and the up tempo play, that will carry us this year? 

I'm just compiling a generalized summary of those who attended and reported. Not trying to judge impressions of any one individual. Kind of like when u walk out of a movie and you hear "boy that was a good flick" and then hear others say it sucked. 

Read thru the attendees posts and you'll see what I mean. No one said they suck, but many said much work to do. A few gave glowing reviews. I wasn't there, but this is what I surmized from the tenors of the posts. 

I have felt that we will struggle in the early going. Just too many new untested pieces. Hopefully, they jell and learn on the run. If they do, we will likely all feel good in Feb. 

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10 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I'm just compiling a generalized summary of those who attended and reported. Not trying to judge impressions of any one individual. Kind of like when u walk out of a movie and you hear "boy that was a good flick" and then hear others say it sucked. 

Read thru the attendees posts and you'll see what I mean. No one said they suck, but many said much work to do. A few gave glowing reviews. I wasn't there, but this is what I surmized from the tenors of the posts. 

I have felt that we will struggle in the early going. Just too many new untested pieces. Hopefully, they jell and learn on the run. If they do, we will likely all feel good in Feb. 

I think the shooting will be better than Saturday showed. They practiced 3 hours Friday late afternoon. And, they are at the end of a long month. Unlike Majerus, Ford will cut back to restore their legs. 

By the way, they practiced again Saturday afternoon, after the women played Illinois in their closed scrimmage. 

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38 minutes ago, slu72 fan said:

I think the shooting will be better than Saturday showed. They practiced 3 hours Friday late afternoon. And, they are at the end of a long month. Unlike Majerus, Ford will cut back to restore their legs. 

By the way, they practiced again Saturday afternoon, after the women played Illinois in their closed scrimmage. 

slu72 fan

What were your thoughts?  I presume you have watched them more than just Saturday.

 

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29 minutes ago, slu72 fan said:

I think the shooting will be better than Saturday showed. They practiced 3 hours Friday late afternoon. And, they are at the end of a long month. Unlike Majerus, Ford will cut back to restore their legs. 

By the way, they practiced again Saturday afternoon, after the women played Illinois in their closed scrimmage. 

They practiced Friday evening before our open practice at 9 on Sat morning.  At the open practice they went after it hard-Ford really worked them.  I think he wants to make sure that they can handle the up tempo system.  They had to be dragging when they started the scrimmage at around 10:30.  I think that might have affected some of the shooting.  I know most of them shot better in the drills even when they were being pressured in the drills.

Regarding the KCH at the 5 discussion, I did not suggest that he would be a first, or even second, option at the 5, but rather that he could pick up a few minutes here and there, especially against back-up 5s from our opponents.  He will get most of his minutes at the 4 - I don't see that he will be necessary at the 3 with JP, GJ, TH Jr, and FT Jr. fighting for minutes  there.

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11 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes. Thank you to all who appeared at the practice and provided updates. Much appreciation from those of us, even locals, who could not make it. Unfortunately I had a very very sad funeral at 10 AM that morning so I do personally thank everyone. 
 

in reading the various comments, though, a few things stand out:

1.  Does Bell still have more weight  to lose or not?  Is he truly ready to play, and perform well, this year, or is he just the next best we have after French and more ready than Diarra?

2.  Not too many comments from/about Weaver.   I am a little surprised   Happy if our long term option (Sophomore Jacobs) is truly beating him out. 

3.  Jevon Bess himself said that Perkins is our best player (or along these lines) two months ago and yet no one posted anything to similar or along these lines. If anything, the reports on Perkins have not been all that positive  Yes, he missed all summer with us as Thicks correctly pointed out but he is also 2 years removed from high school with two years of college/JUCO playing experience  I, for one, am surprised on hearing this.

4  Not surprised to hear about the learning curves and progress that both Hargrove and Yuri face.  Undisciplined, poor high school coaching catches up to even the best.  And leading a good D1 team at PG is alot to ask a true freshman.

5.   Marginal improvement is all that anyone can expect from returning players. Yes the weight room and age experience can greatly help players (Hankton and Jacobs)  but most do not all of a sudden become a 3 point shooter in a matter of a few months/summer.  Comments that Goodwin may increase his 3 point shooting by 3%, guys being decent FT shooters, etc seems more wishful thinking than reality.  I assume Goodwin played PG yesterday, but were there times when someone on his team else played PG? and if so, what position/role did Goodwin play?

6.   Who were our best outside shooters? I assume Jimerson was one, and curious if he is more of a spot up 3 point shooter like Highmark or if he can create his own shot like Claggett?

 

 

1.  He needs to lose a lot more weight and he needs to drop fat.  He is about 2/3 of the way there.  He is what we have.  He will miss shots, drop balls, and he won't protect the rim as a shot blocker.  He will rebound and clog the middle though.  Anything more than 15 minutes is pushing it.  He is way ahead of Diarra.

2. He will be a rotation player but not a starter unless he starts shooting lights out.  Good on ball defender but is lagging in learning some of our offense and defense.  

3. It is more than just learning the plays with Perkins.  

4.  Why do people think Hargrove and Collins got bad coaching in HS?  They didn't.

5. Goodwin played a little bit off ball yesterday but for the most part he's been the primary ball handler.  I think he's more comfortable in that role.  He can improve without becoming a better shooter if he picks his spots better than he was able to last year.  The offense is his.  he won't have to play off of anyone else this year to get his points.

6. Thatch, Hankton and Jimmmmerson have been our best shooters.  Jimmmmmmerson has a real knack for getting his shot off, stepbacks, pivots, eurosteps & sidesteps.  Different than Highmark, who used pump fakes to open up drives and create space for jumpers and Claggett who could break down defenders off the dribble to create openings.  Gibson can drive too but he creates shots without dribbling much.

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2 hours ago, thetorch said:

1.  He needs to lose a lot more weight and he needs to drop fat.  He is about 2/3 of the way there.  He is what we have.  He will miss shots, drop balls, and he won't protect the rim as a shot blocker.  He will rebound and clog the middle though.  Anything more than 15 minutes is pushing it.  He is way ahead of Diarra.

2. He will be a rotation player but not a starter unless he starts shooting lights out.  Good on ball defender but is lagging in learning some of our offense and defense.  

3. It is more than just learning the plays with Perkins.  

4.  Why do people think Hargrove and Collins got bad coaching in HS?  They didn't.

5. Goodwin played a little bit off ball yesterday but for the most part he's been the primary ball handler.  I think he's more comfortable in that role.  He can improve without becoming a better shooter if he picks his spots better than he was able to last year.  The offense is his.  he won't have to play off of anyone else this year to get his points.

6. Thatch, Hankton and Jimmmmerson have been our best shooters.  Jimmmmmmerson has a real knack for getting his shot off, stepbacks, pivots, eurosteps & sidesteps.  Different than Highmark, who used pump fakes to open up drives and create space for jumpers and Claggett who could break down defenders off the dribble to create openings.  Gibson can drive too but he creates shots without dribbling much.

Excellent. Thank you!

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9 hours ago, thetorch said:

6. Thatch, Hankton and Jimmmmerson have been our best shooters.  Jimmmmmmerson has a real knack for getting his shot off, stepbacks, pivots, eurosteps & sidesteps.  Different than Highmark, who used pump fakes to open up drives and create space for jumpers and Claggett who could break down defenders off the dribble to create openings.  Gibson can drive too but he creates shots without dribbling much.

In Highmark's playing days, eurostep was called traveling.  Just sayin'.

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Thanks for all the great feedback on here. Just a few further responses:

--Yes, JB will need to drop more weight, and muscle up.  I am confused why anyone would say he does not.  Maybe they were seated too far up in the stands?  Anyway, yes, his body is still in transition and a work in progress. Bigger issue with him will be stamina: he can really only play in short bursts.  by the way:  I think my evaluation of JB's hands is more upbeat than some others: he has pretty good hands.  His feet and dexterity are truly special.  Strength is off the charts for a freshman, body-wise: oak tree.

--The questions about Perkins are legit, but I think he is a quiet force and do think he will become a major contributor. He and many of the other new guys are really given a lot of teaching and game planning stuff early on, and some do better learning the systems than others. Different players get chewed out in different practices for different reasons, but overall it is a challenging learning curve and one thing is this: if a player fails to grasp the defensive sets and gets burned a couple times, they will be on the bench.  But Perkins does have a scoring ability and finds ways to contribute.  Impact scorer?  let's see but he could be like Isabell last year -- it may take most of a season for us to really get a feel for how much of an impact he will have on this team.

--In that regard, I also have noticed in practice a lot of work on defensive positioning, pressing, and running through presses, etc.  I am struck by the claims by Coach Ford about playing 40 minutes of press.  He talks it up a lot in practices, too.  "People are going to hate playing us; they're going to fear us!" that sort of thing... Will we really do it? and will it work out?  In that scenario, yes stamina is a huge factor and a large rotation is required.

--last but not least: my kool-aid report is premised on any of these guys working hard, making grades, and improving over 4-5 years.  Give them some time and let's see how they progress.  I have not yet heard anything close to any knucklehead type stuff from any of the new guys -- or anyone for that matter. Knock on wood.  Actually have heard great stuff about the character of new guys.  (The knucklehead stuff really infuriates me, a basketball wannabe in the old days who just never had the pysical equipment of this kind of player.)  I truly hope I'm right about the knucklehead factor.  That said: it is the "age of transfers" so who knows? 

Overall: Let's see how this season works itself out (I have refrained from predicting a W_L record, because I really don't know what to think about this work in progress as a TEAM playing real competition). But I think it will be FUN to watch -- most of the time...

 

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Didn't make it but it sounds like the Jacobs playing 5 or 10 minutes a game can finally be put to rest. 

It also sounds like French can still be really effective at the 4. If our guards can knock down shots from the perimeter, it'll really help with spacing and our half court defense could be really good. Although inexperienced, we have the pieces to play and match up to any style of basketball this year. 

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53 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

In Highmark's playing days, eurostep was called traveling.  Just sayin'.

-speaking of traveling, one thing that stuck with me was during one of the first drills where it was fast break against no defense there were many times our guys traveled, again there was no defense, CFord would comment to them about details on spacing but not about traveling, unless the rule changed and you get 4 steps then it would be okay otherwise we seem to practicing bad habits

-thanks to CFord and staff for having the open practice and the two old guys near me that complained after their third trip up the stairs that at 10.15 that the donuts and coffee were gone, get a life

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10 hours ago, thetorch said:

1.  He needs to lose a lot more weight and he needs to drop fat.  He is about 2/3 of the way there.  He is what we have.  He will miss shots, drop balls, and he won't protect the rim as a shot blocker.  He will rebound and clog the middle though.  Anything more than 15 minutes is pushing it.  He is way ahead of Diarra.

2. He will be a rotation player but not a starter unless he starts shooting lights out.  Good on ball defender but is lagging in learning some of our offense and defense.  

3. It is more than just learning the plays with Perkins.  

4.  Why do people think Hargrove and Collins got bad coaching in HS?  They didn't.

5. Goodwin played a little bit off ball yesterday but for the most part he's been the primary ball handler.  I think he's more comfortable in that role.  He can improve without becoming a better shooter if he picks his spots better than he was able to last year.  The offense is his.  he won't have to play off of anyone else this year to get his points.

6. Thatch, Hankton and Jimmmmerson have been our best shooters.  Jimmmmmmerson has a real knack for getting his shot off, stepbacks, pivots, eurosteps & sidesteps.  Different than Highmark, who used pump fakes to open up drives and create space for jumpers and Claggett who could break down defenders off the dribble to create openings.  Gibson can drive too but he creates shots without dribbling much.

One of the things Coach Ford kept saying was slow it down. Play fast from point A to B. but then slow it down. Jimerson demonstrated this idea on a play where he took a pass at the top of the key and let his defender fly by him to get an open 3. Torch says above he can create his shot in numerous ways. The play I talk about above is an example of Jimerson's savvy. Not just letting the defender over run him most players in that situation do that, it's what created the defender overrunning him that made the play. He rotated to the top with speed and intensity, then he stopped on a dime. His fast movement to the spot caused his defender to play overly fast and then his precise, quick stop caused the defender to fly past. The entire sequence was beautifully played and isn't what you expect from a frosh before his first game. Fast from A to B then slow it down. With that said he also rushed his shot a couple of times and when he does it gets flat. 

Jimmy Bell dropped a lot of passes and had the ball slapped away too much. He needs to be stronger on the ball but more than that he needs to learn to seal his defender away so he can't get his hands to the ball. A lot of technique and precise footwork still to be learned from JB. However, he's just got some natural gifts that will force him to be on the court. I'd agree with above that he'll get 15 min or so per game early as I think that's all his conditioning will allow early

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