ESPN MID MAJOR DISCUSSION

[slu72]

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27861088/mid-majors-2019-20-predictions-mid-major-anyway

Follow the link above to the article. Mostly a discussion about which MM conferences could be considered High Majors this season. I don't think they give the A-10 enough kudos, but they did say VCU and Davidson have a shot at pulling off a Loyola. Mostly they consider the MWC and the WWC as the two most likely to be considered High Majors. The WCC basically on the strength of just two teams; Zaga and St. Marys. The MWC being a little deeper with Utah St, NMS, Nevada, et al. Makes next year's A10 v MWC challenge something to look forward to. 

Really no mention of the A10 other than VCU and Davidson. They did point out the A10 has a strong history of getting 3 or more teams into the dance over the last 10 years or so, but criticize us for not getting by the first weekend. I guess they overlooked VCU's final four run and LaSalle and Dayton's sweet 16 runs. No mention of SLU anywhere. However, if you look at the last nine seasons we've made the dance 4 times and garnered  two first rd wins to show for our efforts. 4 times in 9 years isn't bad but still not where we'd like to be, but close to the Taj Mahal 79's  line of every other year. 

The article makes no mention of Dayton, St. B's, or URI chances this season. 

Overall an interesting discussion. I assume what they mean by high major is that the conferences considered mid majors could compete with the high majors of CUSA and the AAC, since they don't consider them to be members of the power 5 + The Beast. Actually, I can see the AAC giving some of the P5+1 teams fits this year in the dance. Memphis is loaded and UC and Houston are solid.  

[Littlebill]

1 hour ago, slu72 said:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27861088/mid-majors-2019-20-predictions-mid-major-anyway

 

Really no mention of the A10 other than VCU and Davidson. They did point out the A10 has a strong history of getting 3 or more teams into the dance over the last 10 years or so, but criticize us for not getting by the first weekend. I guess they overlooked VCU's final four run and LaSalle and Dayton's sweet 16 runs. No mention of SLU anywhere. However, if you look at the last nine seasons we've made the dance 4 times and garnered  two first rd wins to show for our efforts. 4 times in 9 years isn't bad but still not where we'd like to be, but close to the Taj Mahal 79's  line of every other year. 

 

three*

[slu72]

Just now, Littlebill said:

three*

I stand corrected. 3. 

[SLURadioBoy]

The Athletic has a great article about mid-majors today. It basically talks about how it's nearly impossible to determine who should be considered a mid-major these days because so many "mid-majors" have higher revenues and more success than power conference schools that continuously struggle. Coach Ford was even quoted in the story....

https://theathletic.com/1315199/2019/10/23/who-are-you-calling-a-mid-major-the-broken-term-defines-too-much-of-college-basketball/

Travis Ford has also seen the game from several angles. He played at Missouri and Kentucky. He coached at Eastern Kentucky in the Ohio Valley Conference, at UMass in the Atlantic 10 and at Oklahoma State in the Big 12. Back in the A-10 now with Saint Louis, Ford says when it comes to commitment — everything from chartered flights to administrative support and even the size of his office — Saint Louis is practically indistinguishable from Stillwater.

“More and more, these terms are becoming outdated,” the third-year Billikens coach says. “How you define yourself should be based on the resources you have, the support from your administration and your fans. Internally, that’s what you judge yourself on.”

[Cowboy]

10 minutes ago, SLURadioBoy said:

The Athletic has a great article about mid-majors today. It basically talks about how it's nearly impossible to determine who should be considered a mid-major these days because so many "mid-majors" have higher revenues and more success than power conference schools that continuously struggle. Coach Ford was even quoted in the story....

https://theathletic.com/1315199/2019/10/23/who-are-you-calling-a-mid-major-the-broken-term-defines-too-much-of-college-basketball/

Travis Ford has also seen the game from several angles. He played at Missouri and Kentucky. He coached at Eastern Kentucky in the Ohio Valley Conference, at UMass in the Atlantic 10 and at Oklahoma State in the Big 12. Back in the A-10 now with Saint Louis, Ford says when it comes to commitment — everything from chartered flights to administrative support and even the size of his office — Saint Louis is practically indistinguishable from Stillwater.

“More and more, these terms are becoming outdated,” the third-year Billikens coach says. “How you define yourself should be based on the resources you have, the support from your administration and your fans. Internally, that’s what you judge yourself on.”

-I wonder how big "practically" really is? 

[Pistol]

I've always hated the term "mid-major" along with "low-major" and "high-major" for those reasons and many others. The terms don't even make sense - low-major, especially - before you add all the complicating context to the discussion.

The problem is that you have so little control over what fans and the press decide to call you, and there's no consistency whatsoever there.

[billikenfan05]

Just now, Cowboy said:

-I wonder how big "practically" really is? 

It’s indistinguishable when it comes to basketball. When it comes to the non-rev sports it’s a whole other world.

[willie]

9 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

It’s indistinguishable when it comes to basketball. When it comes to the non-rev sports it’s a whole other world.

I totally agree with this point. We don't have football to pay for the other sports. 

[TheChosenOne]

40 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

It’s indistinguishable when it comes to basketball. When it comes to the non-rev sports it’s a whole other world.

Doesn't Oklahoma State have a massive two floor locker room for their basketball team?!?!

Completely agree with you though, I think for the most part SLU's basketball facilities (Chaifetz Arena, the practice gym, locker room, weight room, training room, etc.) probably compare to many of the "high-major" basketball programs beyond maybe some minor things (like some of the facilities being shared as opposed to being basketball specific as I am sure it is at many places). But if you go beyond basketball, the facilities on the whole are nowhere close, heck we have some posters who post things showing local high schools have better facilities for many of their teams than SLU does. That is where we are on an uneven playing field though since programs with football are making so much more $. It appears that most of those athletic departments have decided to keep that money for their football programs and truly making the experience for the football players top notch, but it opens up $ for projects for other sports which is evident if you visit any of these campuses across the country.

[Crewsorlose]

The problem is lumping teams with conferences. Gonzaga isn't a mid-major program. Santa Clara is. The NBE had a bunch of teams from the Old Big East, and then added a bunch of mid-majors. Is DePaul a high-major now? Was Creighton not before? Is Memphis a mid-major since it left the Metro? Despite a Final Four appearance? It's an artificial clarification that leads to lazy narratives.

The notion that your conference has to be playing into the 2nd weekend of the Dance is also problematic. Many years this doesn't apply to the Pac-12 or the SEC. If you want to talk conference quality, just talk conference quality. If the A-10 is the 8th best conference out of 35 conferences, that's what it is. If it's the 12th best, that's what it is. 

[billikenfan05]

19 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

Doesn't Oklahoma State have a massive two floor locker room for their basketball team?!?!

Completely agree with you though, I think for the most part SLU's basketball facilities (Chaifetz Arena, the practice gym, locker room, weight room, training room, etc.) probably compare to many of the "high-major" basketball programs beyond maybe some minor things (like some of the facilities being shared as opposed to being basketball specific as I am sure it is at many places). But if you go beyond basketball the facilities on the whole are nowhere close, heck we have some posters who post things showing local high schools have better facilities for many of their teams than SLU does. That is where we are on an uneven playing field though since programs with football are making so much more $. It appears that most of those athletic departments have decided to keep that money for their football programs and truly making the experience for the football players top notch, but it opens up $ for projects for other sports which is evident if you visit any of these campuses across the country.

OSU is the gold standard for player accommodations. They have the most lavish locker room, player lounge, etc in the NCAA. Duke is the gold standard for player health and performance. There are always going to be outliers but I’d bet that the player and coach accommodations at SLU would match up with the majority of Big 12 and ACC. Obviously our biggest weakness is space so I’m sure there are bigger complexes but I think amenity wise we’re in the conversation.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

40 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

It’s indistinguishable when it comes to basketball. When it comes to the non-rev sports it’s a whole other world.

How do their baseball facilities compare

[billikenfan05]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

How do their baseball facilities compare

Ha! I actually had a post cued up about that. I was in Arkansas for my cousins 21st Birthday and went for a run through campus and my lord! The baseball field has auxiliary seating beyond the outfield, outside the stadium that is better than what the Billikens have. It's more impressive than a lot of AAA stadiums. Their softball stadium is just as impressive. What I was intrigued by was that their womens soccer stadium, while smaller than ours, has much more comfortable fan accommodations than Hermann. I took a few pictures I'll see if I can upload them to this post.

[3star_recruit]

Mid-major is just a shorthand term for conference affiliation.  Long-term success always trumps conference affiliation.  Nobody mistakes Washington State or Penn State for being more prominent programs than Gonzaga or VCU.  I'd rather go to the tournament 8 out of 10 ten years from a mid-major conference than be mired in long-term mediocrity like Minnesota or USC.  And the vast majority of so-called high-major programs are mediocre.

[slu72]

The biggest factor in the labels for hoops is conference affiliation. Especially when it comes to recruiting. Look at SLU. In the past 20 years we've landed just 2 of the cities prized recruits. Even the best  one had some extenuating circumstances that got him here. The second one was a goof ball and left. 

But I don't have a problem with this. If we can keep this group together for the next 2 to 4 seasons and continue to land good 3 stars we can be successful in the A10. The key is keeping Ford happy. Sadly, we didn't do that with our other good HC's; Spoon and Rick. 

[SLURadioBoy]

12 minutes ago, slu72 said:

The biggest factor in the labels for hoops is conference affiliation. Especially when it comes to recruiting. Look at SLU. In the past 20 years we've landed just 2 of the cities prized recruits. Even the best  one had some extenuating circumstances that got him here. The second one was a goof ball and left. 

But I don't have a problem with this. If we can keep this group together for the next 2 to 4 seasons and continue to land good 3 stars we can be successful in the A10. The key is keeping Ford happy. Sadly, we didn't do that with our other good HC's; Spoon and Rick. 

I would definitely consider Goodwin a prized recruit, but that still only makes the number 3.

[slu72]

5 hours ago, SLURadioBoy said:

I would definitely consider Goodwin a prized recruit, but that still only makes the number 3.

Missed him. I'd agree. 

[Compton]

7 hours ago, Crewsorlose said:

The notion that your conference has to be playing into the 2nd weekend of the Dance is also problematic. Many years this doesn't apply to the Pac-12 or the SEC. 

I agree that it's problematic, but that's just not the case for the SEC. They're almost always represented in the 2nd weekend. I think they've missed it once this millennium. Pac-12 has probably missed 4 or 5 though. 

[Quality Is Job 1]

Tommie Liddell III doesn't qualify as a prized recruit?

[SLURadioBoy]

7 hours ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Tommie Liddell III doesn't qualify as a prized recruit?

Good point. Liddell and Lisch should probably be in that boat too. If I remember correctly, both were pretty heavily recruited.

[RUBillsFan]

21 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

And the vast majority of so-called high-major programs are mediocre.

I agree with your sentiment that the labels are shorthand for conference affiliation and there are certainly bad "high major / power 6" conference schools. 

This is going to be unpopular, but I don't think I'd say the vast majority are mediocre.

I believe there are 75 schools in "high major" conferences - Big Ten (14), Big 12 (10), SEC (14), ACC (15), Big East (10), Pac-12 (12).  I'm not going to consider the AAC as high major, but you could argue they are which changes things a little.  45 of these are ranked in the top 50 of KenPom pre-season rankings.  I would not consider any school in the top 50 to be mediocre and that's 45/75 or 60%.  Another 17 are in the 51-75 range which I probably would still not call mediocre, so almost 83% of "high major" schools are in the top 75.  You can certainly cherry pick mediocre ones (Boston College, Washington St, Cal)  to prove that conference affiliation isn't everything just as you can cherry pick Gonzaga or VCU the other way.

You could argue that a one year sample isn't very representative and some schools that are historically mediocre like the Penn State example you gave (#43 by KenPom) are skewing my analysis.  However, it would take a lot of those type schools to make "the vast majority" mediocre.  A quick look at the schools in the top 75 range only yields a few that I'd put in that bucket (Oregon St, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Miss St, TCU, Penn State).

 

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

I agree with your sentiment that the labels are shorthand for conference affiliation and there are certainly bad "high major / power 6" conference schools. 

This is going to be unpopular, but I don't think I'd say the vast majority are mediocre.

I believe there are 75 schools in "high major" conferences - Big Ten (14), Big 12 (10), SEC (14), ACC (15), Big East (10), Pac-12 (12).  I'm not going to consider the AAC as high major, but you could argue they are which changes things a little.  45 of these are ranked in the top 50 of KenPom pre-season rankings.  I would not consider any school in the top 50 to be mediocre and that's 45/75 or 60%.  Another 17 are in the 51-75 range which I probably would still not call mediocre, so almost 83% of "high major" schools are in the top 75.  You can certainly cherry pick mediocre ones (Boston College, Washington St, Cal)  to prove that conference affiliation isn't everything just as you can cherry pick Gonzaga or VCU the other way.

You could argue that a one year sample isn't very representative and some schools that are historically mediocre like the Penn State example you gave (#43 by KenPom) are skewing my analysis.  However, it would take a lot of those type schools to make "the vast majority" mediocre.  A quick look at the schools in the top 75 range only yields a few that I'd put in that bucket (Oregon St, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Miss St, TCU, Penn State).

 

Sounds like the chicken and the egg situation... The high major conferences consider all of their members to be worthy of rankings in the top 50. These rankings are not about what prior year wins and losses or future year wins and losses in that most of them have .500 or worse conference win-loss records. Instead they are all about the “eye test.” 
These games are also not about good “road wins” bc most of the teams in the high major conference do not play games on the road. And when their records of 17-15 are compared to a mid major team at 22-10, The losses are all explained away because they played such “tough”opponents.- but no one wants to leave these conferences because the competition is too tough and they cannot win. And because they have the opportunity to play so many ranked opponents, on their home court, they then have a good chance to win at least one or two of these games - and when that happens, they then stick out their chest and crow about how good they are - so much better than the lowly mid major teams. 
Now the only thing preventing the high majors from convincing the American sports fan of the above is that they have to play road games against non-high major teams in the NCAA tournament. Of course,  they now stack the field, they deny promising mid majors as they pop their bubble, give each other favorable matchups and higher seeds than they deserve - but upsets continued to occur. Now they want their own tournament with only the high majors in it to prevent being exposed and to not have to share the wealth or continue to lose good players to the mid majors who choose playing time over conference affiliation. 
Frankly, I no longer believe in all these “upsets.” Most of the “upsets” or Cinderellas are simply the better team prevailing - though not the better name program prevailing. Some true upsets occur: 1983 NC State, 1985 Villanova; a few Syracuse teams who should not of made the tournament but then proceeded quite far with their unusual style play/matchup zone, UMBC over Virginia...

[3star_recruit]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:41 PM, RUBillsFan said:

I agree with your sentiment that the labels are shorthand for conference affiliation and there are certainly bad "high major / power 6" conference schools. 

This is going to be unpopular, but I don't think I'd say the vast majority are mediocre.

I believe there are 75 schools in "high major" conferences - Big Ten (14), Big 12 (10), SEC (14), ACC (15), Big East (10), Pac-12 (12).  I'm not going to consider the AAC as high major, but you could argue they are which changes things a little.  45 of these are ranked in the top 50 of KenPom pre-season rankings.  I would not consider any school in the top 50 to be mediocre and that's 45/75 or 60%.  Another 17 are in the 51-75 range which I probably would still not call mediocre, so almost 83% of "high major" schools are in the top 75.  You can certainly cherry pick mediocre ones (Boston College, Washington St, Cal)  to prove that conference affiliation isn't everything just as you can cherry pick Gonzaga or VCU the other way.

You could argue that a one year sample isn't very representative and some schools that are historically mediocre like the Penn State example you gave (#43 by KenPom) are skewing my analysis.  However, it would take a lot of those type schools to make "the vast majority" mediocre.  A quick look at the schools in the top 75 range only yields a few that I'd put in that bucket (Oregon St, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Miss St, TCU, Penn State).

 

Look at the 5 year records of teams in high major conferences and you will see well over half with records slightly above .500 or worse.  That's the very definition of mediocre. 

[RUBillsFan]

7 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Look at the 5 year records of teams in high major conferences and you will see well over half with records slightly above .500 or worse.  That's the very definition of mediocre. 

A team playing in the ACC with a record slighly above .500 is probably top 50 in KenPom and an NCAA tournament team most years.  That is not mediocre.

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

A team playing in the ACC with a record slighly above .500 is probably top 50 in KenPom and an NCAA tournament team most years.  That is not mediocre.

The ACC is the only conference in the top 6 where half the programs are not mediocre. That's why it's the best conference in America.