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HoosierPal

Perkins Article in PD

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Replacing Foreman will not be all that tough.  Replacing Bess will be very hard.   And replacing the Isabell we saw down the stretch will also be hard - not the Isabell we watched the first 2/3's of the season.   As to turnovers, Isabell made the most, followed by Goodwin.   French also had a lot himself.  

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/139/saint-louis-billikens

IMO, most of our turnovers last year were due to frustration and attempts to try and do too much - hero ball.   Our team was not clicking for most of the year and each guy tried to do too much and the results were not all that great.   Guess what:   when you make a nice pass to a wide open teammate who misses the shot, you don't get credit for an assist.  But if he makes the shot, you do.  Perimeter shooting was a big problem for us last year - we missed a lot of them.   And if you know he will miss the shot again, or will pass on taking the shot, maybe you dribble 1 more time and make a more difficult pass to someone else, and if the more difficult pass doesn't work, now you have a turnover.  

Believe we need to be careful about interpreting individual stats in a team game.

Our assist to turnover ratio has been poor for something like 23 out of 25 years. It's almost synonymous with Billiken basketball.

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Roy, if you reread what I wrote, Goodwin was very poor leading the break. He made poor passes in the key, he took poor angles, and he too often tried to bull rush the basket, and picked up a charge.

i love Goodwin, but - but - he is not going to morph into more than a serviceable pg who can deliver groceries. His best skills fall into the small forward niche. He happens to have some of the best skills in areas that we don’t normally see, such as Larry Hughes like level jumping the passing lanes, understanding what angle to take to snag a rebound, when to release a shot in the paint, where to go and when/how to cut without the ball. All these skills are superior, and underutilized when he has the ball as the pg.

Our strengths this year may lie more on offense than defense, and playing a beautiful game may be more a focus. This would preferentially drive playing time for Collins being the pg; conversely, Goodwin would be the one to most benefit from Collins’ development, as Goodwin is quite adept at being the secondary ballhandler when the halfcourt defense is unbalanced. He has great court sense.

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20 hours ago, Billiken Rich said:

So many options.  It's been a long time since we we've been this deep......

I'm somewhat nervous about our numbers for inside the paint.  This time last season we had French, Foreman, Gordon and Santos.  We had our collective fingers crossed that Welmer would be able to contribute. And of course Bess slide inside as needed.

Today we have French, and then Bell, Diarra, then Hankton?  Hargrove inside?  Sure we lost Santos and then Gordon, but to me French has become the most irreplaceable athlete on the roster.  Goodwin and Thatch have proven their toughness, but we won't survive too long with 6'3" players guarding the opponents pivot.  French lead the team last season in PF and DQ's.  He needs to be on the floor 30 to 35 mpg in all tight games.

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48 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

I'm somewhat nervous about our numbers for inside the paint.  This time last season we had French, Foreman, Gordon and Santos.  We had our collective fingers crossed that Welmer would be able to contribute. And of course Bess slide inside as needed.

Today we have French, and then Bell, Diarra, then Hankton?  Hargrove inside?  Sure we lost Santos and then Gordon, but to me French has become the most irreplaceable athlete on the roster.  Goodwin and Thatch have proven their toughness, but we won't survive too long with 6'3" players guarding the opponents pivot.  French lead the team last season in PF and DQ's.  He needs to be on the floor 30 to 35 mpg in all tight games.

The reality is that we have French and Foreman from last year vs French, Bell, Diarra (who seems to be the forgotten recruit,) Hankton, and Hargrove .  Calling Santos and Welmer players on last years team is preposterous.  Gordon at least played a few games.

Last year we were worried about having enough players to compete.  This year (knock on wood) we will be worried about keeping all of the fresh faces happy.

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43 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

The reality is that we have French and Foreman from last year vs French, Bell, Diarra (who seems to be the forgotten recruit,) Hankton, and Hargrove .  Calling Santos and Welmer players on last years team is preposterous.  Gordon at least played a few games.

Last year we were worried about having enough players to compete.  This year (knock on wood) we will be worried about keeping all of the fresh faces happy.

What I said was that last preseason we had the five listed power players. What is preposterous to you is true and accurate to me. Carry on. 

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13 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

Sheltie, goodwin had the best assist to turnover ratio on the team.   If he's as horrible with the ball as you claim, the whole team must really suck.

Roy, lets make a few things clear to all. The overall stats for the team for last season just give you the overall averages and ratios. What the team actually did as the season progressed went through bad, not so bad, and (at the end) good. The Isabell that played most of the season was not the Isabell that ended the season and so on and so  forth.

I think Goodwin is great, and French is also great. I am surprised that no one mentioned our FT performance failure, but I guess people are tired of talking about the same thing over and over. So what do I  expect for this year? I expect the season to start showing improvements in some individual players results from early on. I do pray and hope these improvements are evident from the start of the season primarily in FT performance, as this is one of the areas that can be corrected individually and does not depend upon other player's activities. We will not know exactly how good we are this coming year until the team starts playing like a team, however an FT performance improvement should be evident much earlier.

I expect this team will be a lot better overall than last year's team, but will be pretty satisfied if they start the year with much improved FT performance than last year's. I am also willing to wait and go to the games to watch the team gelling into a fully  functional unit. I think it may well be a great year for us.

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39 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

What I said was that last preseason we had the five listed power players. What is preposterous to you is true and accurate to me. Carry on. 

You are correct you did say this time last season.  It's still the case that we have more bodies than last year and they do not include a head case and a chronically injured player.

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5 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Replacing Foreman will not be all that tough. 

I wonder if coach plans on trying Hargrove up top on a 1-3-1.  

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I'd rather have him as one of the two ends on the 3 line of the 1-3-1.  Those are the guys that can jump up and get a steal off of the long pass.  His leaping ability is perfect for that.

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16 hours ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, if you reread what I wrote, Goodwin was very poor leading the break. He made poor passes in the key, he took poor angles, and he too often tried to bull rush the basket, and picked up a charge.

i love Goodwin, but - but - he is not going to morph into more than a serviceable pg who can deliver groceries. His best skills fall into the small forward niche. He happens to have some of the best skills in areas that we don’t normally see, such as Larry Hughes like level jumping the passing lanes, understanding what angle to take to snag a rebound, when to release a shot in the paint, where to go and when/how to cut without the ball. All these skills are superior, and underutilized when he has the ball as the pg.

Our strengths this year may lie more on offense than defense, and playing a beautiful game may be more a focus. This would preferentially drive playing time for Collins being the pg; conversely, Goodwin would be the one to most benefit from Collins’ development, as Goodwin is quite adept at being the secondary ballhandler when the halfcourt defense is unbalanced. He has great court sense.

Shelti

Not sure.   Goodwin sure made a lot of mistake playing PG, and you're right, often did rush the basket and was called with a charge.   But with Isabell as his shooting guard and last year's Thatch as the 3, and with French and Foreman as the 4 and 5, we really didn't have a perimeter game - and Goodwin tried too hard - hero ball. And even with Bess on the floor, he was a good player but not an automatic perimeter shooter.   But when Isabell got hot and started to knock down his shots, and with the rest of the team playing well too, Goodwin looked much better at PG.  This year, I expect better offensive play by Thatch and good shooting from Weaver, Jamison and Perkins, and therefore expect Goodwin to look much better at the PG.

Again, though, not sure what Goodwin's best position actually is..  Maybe he thrives at small forward as the recipient of the pass rather than as the maker of the pass.  We will see

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I think JGood should be our replacement for Bess, but only if he's developed any kind of a perimeter shot. He's a versatile guy, but not a PG. That's an experiment that's got to end. 

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10 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I think JGood should be our replacement for Bess, but only if he's developed any kind of a perimeter shot. He's a versatile guy, but not a PG. That's an experiment that's got to end. 

right.  the team leader the last two years in assist to turnover ratio and the only guy in school history with a triple double is not capable. 

 imo, goodwin was never given the full control of the position.   the team has been badly configured each year and lesser players with no place else to play were then given minutes there and goodwin was then used in multiple other positions when the other players entered the game.   why dont we see what he actually can do when given the keys to the car?

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13 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I think JGood should be our replacement for Bess, but only if he's developed any kind of a perimeter shot. He's a versatile guy, but not a PG. That's an experiment that's got to end. 

And your plan?  Yurimania?

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30 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

right.  the team leader the last two years in assist to turnover ratio and the only guy in school history with a triple double is not capable. 

 imo, goodwin was never given the full control of the position.   the team has been badly configured each year and lesser players with no place else to play were then given minutes there and goodwin was then used in multiple other positions when the other players entered the game.   why dont we see what he actually can do when given the keys to the car?

You play how you play. When you're running the break or breaking a man down off the dribble and have to make a split second decision, you retain your playmaking abilities regardless of your official designation.

Hell, there are programs that actively recruit multiple point guards to play in the backcourt together. There are backcourts where both guards have an assist to turnover ratio over 1.5.

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Roy, your rose colored glasses sometimes distort the big picture.

The big picture is Ford trying, and succeeding, in putting together all the disparate players and best utilizing their skills while putting the best team on the floor. 

Bluster and Strawman aside, we need Goodwin on the floor at 35 mpg. I don’t care if he loses out on triple doubles this year, I recognize and write Ford needs to improve the team by utilizing Goodwin less at the point, and to give a plurality of the pg minutes to a combo of Collins/Weaver/Jacobs.

Goodwin will be fresher, have stronger legs, and hopefully bump up his scoring, fg and ft %s, which is where we desperately need him to improve.

Ford cannot recruit two 3 star point/combo guards in consecutive years, and then park them on the bench to avoid cutting Goodwins pg minutes. That guarantees no pg recruit signing for the next two years as well.

As the first pass target, ie Bess in last year’s zone offense, Goodwin would have a large say in his stats sheet results, which is what you want. I want him to expend less energy on the ball and more leading us on defense, scoring and weak side rebounding.

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59 minutes ago, almaman said:

And your plan?  Yurimania?

How'd you guess? 

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

right.  the team leader the last two years in assist to turnover ratio and the only guy in school history with a triple double is not capable. 

 imo, goodwin was never given the full control of the position.   the team has been badly configured each year and lesser players with no place else to play were then given minutes there and goodwin was then used in multiple other positions when the other players entered the game.   why dont we see what he actually can do when given the keys to the car?

Even his FR year he was positioned on a wing or in a corner.  Pretty sure that was the coach's decision. I think Ford figured out he's not a true PG, so let's use him in some hybrid floater role. And he had a good FR year. Last year he and Isabell, both PGs in training, was a freaking disaster. 

As Sheltie said we need him on the floor, because he's our best player, and our most versatile player. I'm hopeful we speed things up this year and not rely so much on half court sets. Then who is playing the point won't be such a big deal. Just race down the court and find the open man or take the best shot. We had trouble doing that last year until late in the season. But when you have to go to your half court sets, we need a PG to run the show. 

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9 minutes ago, almaman said:

repetition?

It's all about the reps. 

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1 hour ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, your rose colored glasses sometimes distort the big picture.

The big picture is Ford trying, and succeeding, in putting together all the disparate players and best utilizing their skills while putting the best team on the floor. 

Bluster and Strawman apart, we need Goodwin on the floor at 35 mpg. I don’t care if he loses out on triple doubles this year, I recognize and write Ford needs to improve the team by utilizing Goodwin less at the point, and to give a plurality of the pg minutes to a combo of Collins/Weaver/Jacobs.

Goodwin will be fresher, have stronger legs, and hopefully bump up his scoring, fg and ft %s, which is where we desperately need him to improve.

Ford cannot recruit two 3 star point/combo guards in consecutive years, and then park them on the bench to avoid cutting Goodwins pg minutes. That guarantees no pg recruit signing for the next two years as well.

As the first pass target, ie Bess in last year’s zone offense, Goodwin would have a large say in his stats sheet results, which is what you want. I want him to expend less energy on the ball and more leading us on defense, scoring and weak side rebounding.

i agree, it is tough to handle the ball, set the offense and score, goodwin needs to be free to do what he does best and let others be the pg

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18 hours ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, your rose colored glasses sometimes distort the big picture.

The big picture is Ford trying, and succeeding, in putting together all the disparate players and best utilizing their skills while putting the best team on the floor. 

Bluster and Strawman aside, we need Goodwin on the floor at 35 mpg. I don’t care if he loses out on triple doubles this year, I recognize and write Ford needs to improve the team by utilizing Goodwin less at the point, and to give a plurality of the pg minutes to a combo of Collins/Weaver/Jacobs.

Goodwin will be fresher, have stronger legs, and hopefully bump up his scoring, fg and ft %s, which is where we desperately need him to improve.

Ford cannot recruit two 3 star point/combo guards in consecutive years, and then park them on the bench to avoid cutting Goodwins pg minutes. That guarantees no pg recruit signing for the next two years as well.

As the first pass target, ie Bess in last year’s zone offense, Goodwin would have a large say in his stats sheet results, which is what you want. I want him to expend less energy on the ball and more leading us on defense, scoring and weak side rebounding.

Yes and no.

Yes, Goodwin needs to play 35 mpg, we need to keep his legs fresh and put him in position not only for him, but the team, to succeed.  Yes, Goodwin made a lot of bad reads and choices with the ball leading to a lot of turnovers.   

No.  Bess was not a good, first option in last year's zone offense.  In fact, no one on our team was a good first option in that no one could really shoot it and provide zone busting perimeter shooting. Coach Ford built a team with different guys providing different skills, but for Goodwin's first year, we expected to have Bishop, Graves and Henriquez.  Then, we expected to have them back the next year until it was too late to replace them with anyone other than Isabell, Wiley and Thor.  Again, PG duties, with no real perimeter shooting, was given to Goodwin.

Not saying Goodwin will turn out as good a PG as Kwamain, or that Yuri won't do better over time, but also don't believe Goodwin has been given a chance to be PG - with a full, complementing roster -- until now   And as Roy points out, Goodwin did put up some good numbers.  I have no problem being patient and giving Goodwin more time -- at least the first half of this year to see what Goodwin does.  By then, Goodwin will either solidify the job or not, and if not, then Yuri should be further along and more ready to show what he can do.

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Goodwin moves better without the ball than he does trying to create offense with the ball in his hands. Slashing, put backs and superb offensive rebounding for a guard. He's a more than competent enough ball handler to securely get the ball across half court and get us into a half court offense of some sort, but at the end of the day, I would still rather see Yuri given the reigns early on for the point. Trial by fire, prepare for the end of the year. It's not like we don't know what Goodwin can do. If Yuri is a dumpster fire at the PG position (which would surprise me), it goes to Goodwin, maybe at worst costing you a game or two in non-conference. 

This may have already been stated, but something I would love to see this year is Goodwin running as a two and looking for post up oppurtunities against guards. He was a big in high school, can move well in the post and is creative in finding shot oppurtunities from down in the post. With some of the smaller guards in the A-10, he could be a real problem for the defense. Possibly could offer Yuri an easier shot at running the offense because the best defensive guard will have to take Goodwin. 

Maybe the answer here in all of this is that Goodwin isn't a PG period, no matter what his role is claimed publically by Ford, and his talents just aren't defined by a single position. Goodwin does every other thing the team needs to win in any given game. He's a true on the court leader. 

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Goodwin is a serviceable pg. He is above average in ball handling, and is a bulldog physically, so in some games he can use his physical strength to dominate lesser guards, hence most of his triple doubles. His incandescent talents are rebounding and scoring on put backs and in the paint.

The catch to Goodwin at pg is we have an incandescent pg talent in Collins. He is a true pg, all passing, ball handling, and creating plays out of nothing in the half court set, while also being outstanding on the break, and at finishing. He can play the beautiful game and is tough as nails, ala Kwamain and  Marques Perry.

Ford needs to figure out how to balance these two at pg/off guard to maximize Collins development. 

unlike Isabell last year, Collins is going to pop as a very good college pg, even a great one if he gets an outside shot. He has the skills to make plays inside the 3 pt line that Goodwin has not flashed on a regular basis. He took a well coached St Mary’s team down to the wire vs Vashon his Jr year, and then took a very young team to a state title while healing from shoulder surgery his senior year.

I expect Ford is eager to put the three man weave to bed this year, and start playing a much more vertical game come November.

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