2019-20 Season

[Sheltiedave]

I’ll choose to disagree. Santos was a risk, and never played a game. Gordon was an even bigger risk, and lasted what, 12 games with declining chemistry to boot. They both became vanishing chimeras that hurt the team far more than they helped. In the end, we got 12 games out of three years of scholarship slots.

It would be very nice for Hankton to evolve into a serviceable reserve PF,  but this is a situational need created by two recruiting decisions that both failed due to character flaws.

This is why we so strenuously hope that between Collins, Hargrove, and Gimmmerson, two of the three hit the ground running like Goodwin and French did their freshmen year, because we turn into a tourney team quickly.. if Collins can get starter minutes because he earned them, then we will mature like the McCauley, Perry, and Mitchell led teams.

[billiken_roy]

Rickma was without a doubt the greatest developer of team talent in billiken history.    

I consider ford the greatest recruiter.   At least in my fandom, which goes back 42 years.   Ford is also a fantastic motivator from my view.   What ford lacks is individual development.   I will say again, considering the shooter ford was as a player it is horrible that our outside shooting and free throw shooting is so bad and doesnt appear to get better.   Same with point guard development.   

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, Sheltiedave said:

We are in complete agreement.

What Ford and co. Have been unable to close the deal on is that very package, now in its third year.

The staff got emergency back fills to start, due to connections, and Foreman was a small success, but they have yet to pick up any high school starting big who is a 3 ️, after their amazing grab of French.

Historically, this recruiting pattern always kept us behind Dayton in the MCC. I hate seeing it repeated again, but I know Ford is a lot more recruiting savvy than Grawer and Spoon were, so we will see how he pivots in the next two classes.

When we had sustained success under Majerus, it was due halfway to him instilling his system in four year players, and half having three years of successful recruiting which included three excellent point guards, three rugged power forwards, a stretch four, and backups across the board.

Coach Ford had the same problem securing issue-free power forwards in the big 12. Carteare Gordon is not the first big kid with problems he's taken a chance on. The best power forward he ever had was Stephane Lasme, a 6'8 pogo stick he inherited when succeeding Steve Lappas at UMass.

People are free to wish for whatever recruiting outcome they want but coach's track record is pretty clear here. More often than not our best option at the power forward will be undersized.  But a physically mature 6'6 or 6'7 player can do quite well in the A10.

[Crewsorlose]

How are people feeling about the frontcourt? After watching Madness, it's hard for me to see Perkins spending a lot of time at the 4, esp. against bigger teams. Hargrove maybe a bit more.

I see the front court as a real issue for minutes. French should play 33-35 mpg. Let's say 25 at the 5. Diarra doesn't seem ready, so slot Bell in for 15. Suppose they go big a bit, with Bell and French. Still, Hankton is going to need to play. Perhaps a lot when Bell and French pick up fouls. I don't see Hankton as top 10 in terms of talent, but he may be top 8 in minutes.

In the backcourt, I don't see Weaver and Collins on the court at the same time much. There's a decent chance Jacobs gets buried behind other guards. If they press, I suppose their best lineup will be French/Hargrove/Goodwin/Thach/Weaver or Collins. 

Can't wait for the season to start. 

[slufanskip]

2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

Rickma was without a doubt the greatest developer of team talent in billiken history.    

I consider ford the greatest recruiter.   At least in my fandom, which goes back 42 years.   Ford is also a fantastic motivator from my view.   What ford lacks is individual development.   I will say again, considering the shooter ford was as a player it is horrible that our outside shooting and free throw shooting is so bad and doesnt appear to get better.   Same with point guard development.   

90% of development and improvement is on the player as far as personal skills are concerned. 

[Clock_Tower]

2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

Rickma was without a doubt the greatest developer of team talent in billiken history.    

I consider ford the greatest recruiter.   At least in my fandom, which goes back 42 years.   Ford is also a fantastic motivator from my view.   What ford lacks is individual development.   I will say again, considering the shooter ford was as a player it is horrible that our outside shooting and free throw shooting is so bad and doesnt appear to get better.   Same with point guard development.   

Roy. Now you’re being unfair. you blame Ford for PG development? What coach would look good for point guard development if you removed, unexpectedly, his returning point guatrd in Bishop as well as his back up in Ty Graves. And instead of saying these guys are permanently gone, leading the Coach on through the next recruiting season and then letting him know, after recruits have already committed.  
Now, as to development, if you ask me did Isabell get better under Ford - I would say most definitely - especially after considering we were his third school in four years. Has Goodwin developed under Coach Ford? Most definitely especially considering he never played point guard before SLU. 

Despite S2, Coach Ford wins the A10 Tournament, takes us to the NCAA tournament, brings in a monster recruiting class and he now needs defending 2 months prior to our first game? Wow  

Who was the coach Ford supposed to develop and what did Coach Ford do wrong?  He made due w Roby and Hines, he went w Goodwin and Isabell after losing Bishop and Graves, he now brings in Yuri and Weaver to help Goodwin...

Just wait for Coach Ford to actually make a mistake and then watch as his critics continue their attacks..

[billiken_roy]

41 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

90% of development and improvement is on the player as far as personal skills are concerned. 

Someone's got to teach mechanics.   Practicing bad habits / form is as bad as not practicing at all.

[billiken_roy]

40 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Roy. Now you’re being unfair. you blame Ford for PG development? What coach would look good for point guard development if you removed, unexpectedly, his returning point guatrd in Bishop as well as his back up in Ty Graves. And instead of saying these guys are permanently gone, leading the Coach on through the next recruiting season and then letting him know, after recruits have already committed.  
Now, as to development, if you ask me did Isabell get better under Ford - I would say most definitely - especially after considering we were his third school in four years. Has Goodwin developed under Coach Ford? Most definitely especially considering he never played point guard before SLU. 

Despite S2, Coach Ford wins the A10 Tournament, takes us to the NCAA tournament, brings in a monster recruiting class and he now needs defending 2 months prior to our first game? Wow  

Who was the coach Ford supposed to develop and what did Coach Ford do wrong?  He made due w Roby and Hines, he went w Goodwin and Isabell after losing Bishop and Graves, he now brings in Yuri and Weaver to help Goodwin...

Just wait for Coach Ford to actually make a mistake and then watch as his critics continue their attacks..

Your opinion.   I stand by mine 

[3star_recruit]

I think it's fair to say that Coach Ford's player development at OK State was average. He has a relatively short list of players he can point to that significantly improved their production after their sophomore year.

Coach experienced more success with developing players in his short stint at UMass: Stephane Lasme, Chris Lowe, James Life and Etienne Brower off the top of my head. I hope he reproduces that success here.

[Sheltiedave]

Roy, Majerus was a genius at coaching the physics of the game, and also having a technical understanding of the intricacies.

He would know each of the players’ stride lengths when dribbling at varied speeds while in a half court offense, and he would lay tape on the floor to show the bigs how to position at each side of the top of the key. He would spend ten minutes telling Loe where to set depending on the forward in the paint, and how Loe needed to stand to pin his man inside the cut, putting his feet just so, putting his arms just so, and putting his hips and shoulders just so, all so he could catch a pass, square up and shooting minimal time and motion, all while at the same time pinning his man and blocking the cutter’s(Jett his senior year)man.

Majerus would then switch over and teach the cutters, showing them how to take the steps so they would have an inch separation around the cut, all the way from hip to shoulder. He would walk them through, then he would run them through it, then they would dribble and run through it, then they would scrimmage through it.

When they would hit game time, they had it down so cold that they could immediately recognize when it would work, and they would hit it hard. It helped that Conklin, Loe, Agbecko, and Ellis could all do the screen right, and Loe and Ellis had to have their man sit on them, before and after the cut.

Majerus taught this at the PhD level, Ford to this point is at the bachelors level.

Drew Hanlon is making lots of money teaching the pro guards to do some of Majerus’ tricks at a masters level. This stuff is not easy to learn well, and hard to smoothly incorporate unless you get it drilled into you at the level where you can learn it.

[Clock_Tower]

6 hours ago, Old guy said:

Clock, the optimal composition desired for a team may be X, and you may not be able to get the necessary talent to get all the players you desire to have. So let's say you are some distance away from what you would consider the optimal composition of the team, what is a good coach to do? You do what you need to do to adapt play style to the actual on site team strengths and weaknesses, and develop the talent within the team. Does this mean you are not going to play a really good season? No, of course not. I believe we may wind up with very good results this season. I would NOT discount off the cuff the possibility of going back to the dance this year. All I can say is that we will see, and that the season will start real soon. I can't wait.

Old Guy. Generally I agree with you; however, RM certainly did not do this, and he, of course was an excellent coach.  
I was truly excited to see what RM would do with our guys. Would he play man to man?  Would he go to a zone? What would a HOF coach do that our normal coaches would not  do? Would he try A 1-3-1? . Would he press?  Brad would say he was going to change our style of play based upon our new players... but RM never did. 
Instead, he implemented his offense his way on his terms even though great players like Kevin Lisch and Tommy  Liddell may not have been best suited for that style of play. RM did not care. 
I assume, but I’m not sure, that coach Ford will make the adjustment to run a 4-1 and play up-tempo because of our personnel- I would - but I am a MBM and not an elite D1 head coach. 

[Quality Is Job 1]

1 hour ago, Sheltiedave said:

When they would hit game time, they had it down so cold that they could immediately recognize when it would work, and they would hit it hard. It helped that Conklin, Loe, Agbecko, and Aussie could all do the screen right, and Loe and Aussie had to have their man sit on them, before and after the cut.

It appears you mixed Reggie Agbeko with Corey Remekun.

Crews recruited Agbeko to SLU — he never had a connection to Rickma.

[Sheltiedave]

Right you are, confusion is a normal state these days!

[billiken_roy]

Sheltie you could have saved everyone a lot of reading by just saying you agree with me.

[Aquinas]

6 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

Rickma was without a doubt the greatest developer of team talent in billiken history.    

I consider ford the greatest recruiter.   At least in my fandom, which goes back 42 years.   Ford is also a fantastic motivator from my view.   What ford lacks is individual development.   I will say again, considering the shooter ford was as a player it is horrible that our outside shooting and free throw shooting is so bad and doesnt appear to get better.   Same with point guard development.   

I agree, as a team we shot poorly. Bess however made the most remarkable shooting progress that I ever recall seeing in a player in his Jr and Sr years. Ford obviously went after some proven shooters for this season, and my hope is that wil] open up some easier shots for our other players.  Shots start going down and confidence goes up.  

[slufanskip]

4 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

Someone's got to teach mechanics.   Practicing bad habits / form is as bad as not practicing at all.

And you don't think they're getting taught proper mechanics? In some cases practicing bad habits is worse than not practicing at all. I can't imagine there is a player at SLU who hasn't been taught proper shot mechanics just to speak of one item

[Old guy]

2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Old Guy. Generally I agree with you; however, RM certainly did not do this, and he, of course was an excellent coach.  
I was truly excited to see what RM would do with our guys. Would he play man to man?  Would he go to a zone? What would a HOF coach do that our normal coaches would not  do? Would he try A 1-3-1? . Would he press?  Brad would say he was going to change our style of play based upon our new players... but RM never did. 
Instead, he implemented his offense his way on his terms even though great players like Kevin Lisch and Tommy  Liddell may not have been best suited for that style of play. RM did not care. 
I assume, but I’m not sure, that coach Ford will make the adjustment to run a 4-1 and play up-tempo because of our personnel- I would - but I am a MBM and not an elite D1 head coach. 

Clock, I totally agree that it would be absolutely wonderful and also intriguing to see how RM would handle the present team. Unfortunately he died many years ago, and I really do not think we will be able to see him handling the team. I have no idea how Ford will handle this team but I am pretty sure he will not do it as Majerus might have, had he had the chance. So, in Ford we trust and GO BILLS!

[Clock_Tower]

1 hour ago, Old guy said:

Clock, I totally agree that it would be absolutely wonderful and also intriguing to see how RM would handle the present team. Unfortunately he died many years ago, and I really do not think we will be able to see him handling the team. I have no idea how Ford will handle this team but I am pretty sure he will not do it as Majerus might have, had he had the chance. So, in Ford we trust and GO BILLS!

Sorry. I was not clear. I meant to say that I was curious and intrigued to see what RM would do, in his first year in 2007, with Brad Sodeberg’s guys - and was disappointed. RM showed no interest in winning that first year. Brad was far more creative and got far more out of our guys than RM. But 2 years later, I watched the best half of Billiken basketball I had ever seen - that flawless first half against Romar/Washington. Next we are heading to NCAA Tournament. RM was a genius - but only w his players in his system. RM did not change his style of play to fit his personnel.
    Ford is not RM. Will Ford change his style of play to fit his personnel this year?

[Old guy]

2 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Sorry. I was not clear. I meant to say that I was curious and intrigued to see what RM would do, in his first year in 2007, with Brad Sodeberg’s guys - and was disappointed. RM showed no interest in winning that first year. Brad was far more creative and got far more out of our guys than RM. But 2 years later, I watched the best half of Billiken basketball I had ever seen - that flawless first half against Romar/Washington. Next we are heading to NCAA Tournament. RM was a genius - but only w his players in his system. RM did not change his style of play to fit his personnel.
    Ford is not RM. Will Ford change his style of play to fit his personnel this year?

That is an interesting question that I have no answer for, we will have to see.

[billiken_roy]

10 hours ago, slufanskip said:

And you don't think they're getting taught proper mechanics? In some cases practicing bad habits is worse than not practicing at all. I can't imagine there is a player at SLU who hasn't been taught proper shot mechanics just to speak of one item

considering the results, i dont think they are being taught anything.  they play.

[3star_recruit]

9 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Sorry. I was not clear. I meant to say that I was curious and intrigued to see what RM would do, in his first year in 2007, with Brad Sodeberg’s guys - and was disappointed. RM showed no interest in winning that first year. Brad was far more creative and got far more out of our guys than RM. But 2 years later, I watched the best half of Billiken basketball I had ever seen - that flawless first half against Romar/Washington. Next we are heading to NCAA Tournament. RM was a genius - but only w his players in his system. RM did not change his style of play to fit his personnel.
    Ford is not RM. Will Ford change his style of play to fit his personnel this year?

These are Ford's players playing in his system. Over half of them are new and most of the new players are freshmen but these are his players. His small ball teams at UMass, after taking their lumps the first year, scored a lot of points. Same way at Eastern Kentucky. At Ok State, he didn't have enough depth most years to play uptempo. If you look at his entire career, he's already demonstrated a willingness to play different styles according to his personnel.

[dennis_w]

Ford is flexible in style when he needs to. he showed that the first year he was here and will continue to do so. Not many kids will buy into the RM style 

[slufanskip]

3 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

considering the results, i dont think they are being taught anything.  they play.

Oh come on. You actually think we have a D1 staff that doesn't teach fundamentals or particularly shot mechanics? Why do the players always seem to get a pass? If they don't learn it's always they weren't coached not they didn't or couldn't learn.

If I had Jordan Goodwin's natural athleticism and abilities, I can tell you with 100% certainty, I'd be able to shoot. I don't care if I had to download mechanics off the internet to learn, somehow, some way I'd learn. If he could hit high 30's from 3 he'd be an NBA prospect.

I've given private shooting lessons to kids from Elementary school through college. First lesson, I ask them all this question. Do you believe I can make you a great shooter, all of them answer yes. It's the wrong answer. Only they can make themselves great. It's up to the player. It's the coach's job to teach and show and correct. It's the players responsibility to work on it. And by work I mean focus and self correct while putting in the reps and the work not just go through the motions.

You think bad results mean the players aren't getting taught. I don't buy it.  

Players like Goodwin and French who's main attributes are strength and athleticism generally excel at effort parts of the game. They have been failed by coaches and a mentality that puts far too much emphasis on winning at a young age. It's not their college coaches as winning is too relevant at that stage. By no means am I saying Goodwin doesn't put in effort. Hell, just watch him play, effort and motor is what his game is about. Somewhere down his line (and I'd put French in the same category) someone should have held him accountable to put in the technical or fundamental work even it's going to cost your team some games. They don't take their 7th grade won/loss record with them. Hell they won't even remember it 3/4 years later. They will take the skills learned forward and it'll make a lot more difference in their career then that 42-17 win over xxxxx team in 8th grade

[Clock_Tower]

2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

These are Ford's players playing in his system. Over half of them are new and most of the new players are freshmen but these are his players. His small ball teams at UMass, after taking their lumps the first year, scored a lot of points. Same way at Eastern Kentucky. At Ok State, he didn't have enough depth most years to play uptempo. If you look at his entire career, he's already demonstrated a willingness to play different styles according to his personnel.

Absolutely they are Ford's players.  No intending any excuses for that.  And for the first time, barring another program setback, we will be able to watch a Coach Ford team with all its available players and components. My only comment is that Coach Ford has been scrambling, playing "with 1 arm tied behind his back", "making due", using Plan B, etc. ever since S2 broke and the boys self-imposed suspension on themselves - and received even worse treatment than had they simply played and appealed.   Shame on SLU and the Title IX Coordinator Anna Kratky.   Kangaroo Court now abolished by Betsy DeVos.   IMO, Kratky should be fired and replaced.

I am not sure what system Coach Ford prefers.  Frankly, I don't think it fair to hold him to whatever he did years ago at Eastern Kentucky and UMass as those were a long, long time ago, the game has changed since then, the players have changed, and likely Ford has changed since then.  As to OSU, again, Coach Ford would be a fool to do the same thing here at SLU as he did at OSU.   My take is that Ford is not a fool, that he learned from his mistakes and that we are about to embark on a new era of SLU basketball - though I do believe that Ford will be the first to say that he is shorthanded due to the losses of Gordon and Santos and his inability to land a Graduate Senior big man. Nonetheless, let the Coach Ford era begin!!

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Absolutely they are Ford's players.  No intending any excuses for that.  And for the first time, barring another program setback, we will be able to watch a Coach Ford team with all its available players and components. My only comment is that Coach Ford has been scrambling, playing "with 1 arm tied behind his back", "making due", using Plan B, etc. ever since S2 broke and the boys self-imposed suspension on themselves - and received even worse treatment than had they simply played and appealed.   Shame on SLU and the Title IX Coordinator Anna Kratky.   Kangaroo Court now abolished by Betsy DeVos.   IMO, Kratky should be fired and replaced.

I am not sure what system Coach Ford prefers.  Frankly, I don't think it fair to hold him to whatever he did years ago at Eastern Kentucky and UMass as those were a long, long time ago, the game has changed since then, the players have changed, and likely Ford has changed since then.  As to OSU, again, Coach Ford would be a fool to do the same thing here at SLU as he did at OSU.   My take is that Ford is not a fool, that he learned from his mistakes and that we are about to embark on a new era of SLU basketball - though I do believe that Ford will be the first to say that he is shorthanded due to the losses of Gordon and Santos and his inability to land a Graduate Senior big man. Nonetheless, let the Coach Ford era begin!!

I'm not holding Coach Ford to anything, I'm giving you concrete examples of how he operated given the personnel. He's already said in recent interviews that he feels the team can play faster because he has the depth to do so. There is no mystery here.