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Clocktoweraccords2004

Local roster building

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We have Goodwin, Perkins, Thatch, Yuri, Lewis and Hargrove so far as our local players on the roster which is almost half. If we can take 80% of the best local players, we will be an ncaa tournament team forever. (Yes Thatch is from Sikeston but I still count it) 

Now that we have proven ourselves a little bit, we have a lot more momentum in recruiting compared to Mizzou which has went on a cliff after the brothers left. 

No longer will the Cooks, Rameys, Liddell’s pass us by so quickly. The future is bright and Lewis coming back is proof minds have changed with Ford. 

And Yes recruiting outside the area is essential but keeping top talent local is a huge priority and relatively easier than getting talent out of state

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11 minutes ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

We have Goodwin, Perkins, Thatch, Yuri, Lewis and Hargrove so far as our local players on the roster which is almost half. If we can take 80% of the best local players, we will be an ncaa tournament team forever. (Yes Thatch is from Sikeston but I still count it) 

Now that we have proven ourselves a little bit, we have a lot more momentum in recruiting compared to Mizzou which has went on a cliff after the brothers left. 

No longer will the Cooks, Rameys, Liddell’s pass us by so quickly. The future is bright and Lewis coming back is proof minds have changed with Ford. 

And Yes recruiting outside the area is essential but keeping top talent local is a huge priority and relatively easier than getting talent out of state

I hope you’re right, and the offers to Kern and Kalkbrenner are another sign that we are trying to be in play for all local talent. However, it already seems like Fletcher and Love (the two biggest names in the 2020 class) are getting distracted by the bright lights of the blue bloods. Kasubke and Bradford are still in play, but they’re not quite as highly rated nationally. Fingers crossed, but I don’t think we will ever have the top-30 local guys on lockdown (might get one on occasion), barring a looong run of prominence and/or a move to the Big East. 

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Sure we will be getting top 30 local guys from time to time, we already have with Gordon. The fact that he did not work out for us is another matter, we did get him. We will get more top 30 local guys in time and the chances are that some of them will work out just fine for the Bills.

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7 hours ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

We have Goodwin, Perkins, Thatch, Yuri, Lewis and Hargrove so far as our local players on the roster which is almost half. If we can take 80% of the best local players, we will be an ncaa tournament team forever. (Yes Thatch is from Sikeston but I still count it) 

Now that we have proven ourselves a little bit, we have a lot more momentum in recruiting compared to Mizzou which has went on a cliff after the brothers left. 

No longer will the Cooks, Rameys, Liddell’s pass us by so quickly. The future is bright and Lewis coming back is proof minds have changed with Ford. 

And Yes recruiting outside the area is essential but keeping top talent local is a huge priority and relatively easier than getting talent out of state

I feel that the fact that Fred Thatch Jr. played for the local AAU team should allow us to count him as a local recruit.

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It's a progression.  Travis has worked SLU into the conversation for kids that may have not looked at us in the past.  Now the next step is success on the court.  If we do that and start to look like we may be turning into a Gonzaga, Villanova, or Xavier, then we will start getting the 4 and 5 star guys regularly.  I also think that Travis is brilliant with framing the local recruiting as guys "staying home" and "playing for their home town."  This theme is making its way around the area, and people are starting to buy into it.

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Four and five-star guys are going straight to the pros shortly.  Give that dream up.  In our entire history, we've had two of those and they each lasted one year or less.  To keep the local kids Travis has to win big and make every game an event.  Somewhere you get seen and where you want to be seen.  A high-flying, entertaining circus that goes to the dance 7 out of ten times every decade.  A circus with 12,000 spectators game-in and game-out.  You want to make leaps like that where the Cooks, Liddell's and whomever no longer look past us?  Just remember this --- we said that with Johnnie Parker.  With Douglass and Gray.  With Highmark, Claggett and Winfield.  With Hughes.  With the Miracle in Memphis.  With Rick.  Now with Goodwin, Thatch and Hargrove.  Winning, being on TV, and being in the Dance --- build it, then they will come. 

Lewis signed with a coach who got canned.  Then he signed with a coach that went elsewhere.  Lewis is really nobody when compared to a Beal, a McLemore, a Lee, a White, a Tatum.  Lewis is lucky we had a landing spot for him and a need for shooters -- real and/or perceived.  And we need to get lucky and hope they grant him a waiver to play his last year with us starting this coming year.  But we are SLU so two things will happen .... we won't get that waiver and like all other jump shots, Mike Lewis' will die once it gets here too.

Gonzaga, Villanova and Xavier all follow my example above ---- they win, they are entertaining before sell out crowds, and they go to the Dance.  Every.  Strinking.  Year.  Just like .......... Cincinnait.  Cincinnati?  Yep, p[retty amazing to think Mick Cronin had them in the Dance for each fo the last nine years.  N-I-N-E years.  That is pretty damn good for anybody, let alone Mick Cronin and Cincinnati.  Looooooooooooooomg way to go.

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I think with one and done rule eventually going out the window and players eventually being able to transfer at least once without sitting out I think local recruiting is going to be the best way for small programs to get players who will stick with a program all four years.

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24 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I think with one and done rule eventually going out the window and players eventually being able to transfer at least once without sitting out I think local recruiting is going to be the best way for small programs to get players who will stick with a program all four years.

Yeah, building a local pipeline will be very important, especially once basically the 10-13th guys on every roster in the country will be eyeing playing time with an immediate transfer. Who sticks around and is willing to compete for minutes when that becomes reality? As you said, it'll be the guys who are committed to the city as well as the program and want to stay close to home.

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57 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

Four and five-star guys are going straight to the pros shortly.  Give that dream up.  In our entire history, we've had two of those and they each lasted one year or less.  

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

Four and five-star guys are going straight to the pros shortly.  Give that dream up.  In our entire history, we've had two of those and they each lasted one year or less.  To keep the local kids Travis has to win big and make every game an event.  Somewhere you get seen and where you want to be seen.  A high-flying, entertaining circus that goes to the dance 7 out of ten times every decade.  A circus with 12,000 spectators game-in and game-out.  You want to make leaps like that where the Cooks, Liddell's and whomever no longer look past us?  Just remember this --- we said that with Johnnie Parker.  With Douglass and Gray.  With Highmark, Claggett and Winfield.  With Hughes.  With the Miracle in Memphis.  With Rick.  Now with Goodwin, Thatch and Hargrove.  Winning, being on TV, and being in the Dance --- build it, then they will come. 

Lewis signed with a coach who got canned.  Then he signed with a coach that went elsewhere.  Lewis is really nobody when compared to a Beal, a McLemore, a Lee, a White, a Tatum.  Lewis is lucky we had a landing spot for him and a need for shooters -- real and/or perceived.  And we need to get lucky and hope they grant him a waiver to play his last year with us starting this coming year.  But we are SLU so two things will happen .... we won't get that waiver and like all other jump shots, Mike Lewis' will die once it gets here too.

Gonzaga, Villanova and Xavier all follow my example above ---- they win, they are entertaining before sell out crowds, and they go to the Dance.  Every.  Strinking.  Year.  Just like .......... Cincinnait.  Cincinnati?  Yep, p[retty amazing to think Mick Cronin had them in the Dance for each fo the last nine years.  N-I-N-E years.  That is pretty damn good for anybody, let alone Mick Cronin and Cincinnati.  Looooooooooooooomg way to go.

4 stars are NOT going straight to the NBA.  Many 5 stars will but not even all of them.  See Tillmon, Gordon, French, Goodwin just to name a few we know about.

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Agree, there will be plenty of 4 stars and some 5 stars left after the straight pathway from HS to NBA is fully taken. The rest of the  kids will go to D1.

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3 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Lewis signed with a coach who got canned.  Then he signed with a coach that went elsewhere.  Lewis is really nobody when compared to a Beal, a McLemore, a Lee, a White, a Tatum.

Who said that he was on their level?  He's an overlooked shooter that has played like a 3 star recruit.  Loading up on 3 star recruits and more importantly, keeping them, will win us a lot of games. 

There's a lot of worthy goals we can aim for in the next four years other than national power.  How about we start with wresting control of the A10 from VCU?

 

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Some talk here makes me think there is a known number of 4 and 5 * recruits in each class. If this is the case please inform this eager to learn dimwit.

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Look, the title of the thread says "local roster building."  One guy wants to include Sikeston in there.  Okay, but only because he played with the Eagles.  Someone said Sikeston is closer to Memphis but what do I know.  Then another guy includes Hasahn French.  Who hails from local Middletown, NY.  Never mind the fact that verbal commits lists him at 3.3 stars.  Maybe you round that up...... like 3.7 star Javon Bess, just outside the St.Louis metroplex in Akron, Ohio.  Then another anoints Lewis as a 3-star like shooter.  Sure, fine by me.  Ofcourse, this is after he took 5 shots per game in 12 played at Duquesne.  

While I agree Lewis isn't and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Beal, Lee, Liddell, etc., the bigger names and talentsd leave St. Louis, always have.  The aforementioned are some but so did Tyler Cook, Xavier Snead, Jeremiah Tilmon, Carte'Are Gordon, Loren Woods, Chris Carawell, Courtney Stockard, LaPhonso Ellis, and many more.  Only winning and a committed coach is what they'll stay home for.  

The one statement I'll agree with is the one that says be the power in the A10 first, then we can talk.  

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4 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Four and five-star guys are going straight to the pros shortly.  Give that dream up.  In our entire history, we've had two of those and they each lasted one year or less.  To keep the local kids Travis has to win big and make every game an event.  Somewhere you get seen and where you want to be seen.  A high-flying, entertaining circus that goes to the dance 7 out of ten times every decade.  A circus with 12,000 spectators game-in and game-out.  You want to make leaps like that where the Cooks, Liddell's and whomever no longer look past us?  Just remember this --- we said that with Johnnie Parker.  With Douglass and Gray.  With Highmark, Claggett and Winfield.  With Hughes.  With the Miracle in Memphis.  With Rick.  Now with Goodwin, Thatch and Hargrove.  Winning, being on TV, and being in the Dance --- build it, then they will come. 

Lewis signed with a coach who got canned.  Then he signed with a coach that went elsewhere.  Lewis is really nobody when compared to a Beal, a McLemore, a Lee, a White, a Tatum.  Lewis is lucky we had a landing spot for him and a need for shooters -- real and/or perceived.  And we need to get lucky and hope they grant him a waiver to play his last year with us starting this coming year.  But we are SLU so two things will happen .... we won't get that waiver and like all other jump shots, Mike Lewis' will die once it gets here too.

Gonzaga, Villanova and Xavier all follow my example above ---- they win, they are entertaining before sell out crowds, and they go to the Dance.  Every.  Strinking.  Year.  Just like .......... Cincinnait.  Cincinnati?  Yep, p[retty amazing to think Mick Cronin had them in the Dance for each fo the last nine years.  N-I-N-E years.  That is pretty damn good for anybody, let alone Mick Cronin and Cincinnati.  Looooooooooooooomg way to go.

Almost no 4 stars go NBA shortly.  And only about half the 5 stars come out after freshman year.

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There's more than one way to succeed.

It's true that SLU's relationshp with local HS and AAU programs has been up and down over the years and that we needed to work the local programs harder because there's so much talent in the region. I like that we're currently at a relatively high wave in terms of local representation on the roster. Sometimes this can be a burden, like when there are local players with baggage or difficult families or whatever. It can also create additional difficulties if there's frequent coaching turnover.

Bottom line is that in SLU's history, a local-heavy roster is not necessarily correlated to success.

One of our most successful runs in program history - the three seasons from 2011 to 2014 - saw exactly one local player* on the roster - Kyle Cassity, whose senior season was 2011-2012. The next time we had a local kid, it was Austin Gillmann in 2014-2015 and that was the first year we started to tank under Crews.

The 2019-2020 roster already has more local players (6) than we've had in any season in over a decade. We had 6 local guys in 2006-2007, 7 the following year, and 5 or 6 the year after that (depending on whether you include Brett Thompson from Vienna, IL).

Aside from that stretch in 2007-2009, It wasn't routine for SLU to have about half the roster made up of locals going back to the late 90s. From 1992-1993 until 1999-2000, every team had 5 or more locals. Prior to that, it was even more. The high numbers I saw were 1987-1988 and 1991-1992, when we had 9 local players on each team (although 1-2 guys on each roster may have been walk-ons; I couldn't tell).

In the modern era, here are the best seasons SLU has had in order of total wins, with the number of locals following each year and NCAA Tournament seasons in bold:

2012-2013 - 0
2013-2014 - 0
1988-1989 - 6
2011-2012 - 1
1986-1987 - 8
2018-2019 - 3
2009-2010 - 2
1994-1995 - 5
1993-1994 - 5
1997-1998 - 6

This is not an argument for or against pursuing locals. I like most of the local kids we're currently recruiting and would be very happy with more local commitments.

*In my research, I had to draw a line between what was local and what wasn't. I basically include a 1-2 hour radius around St. Louis, so if someone's from a small town in the region, they're generally getting included because STL would be the biggest major city and those kids would've played AAU ball with STL-based programs. I only included scholarship players, too, and I went back to 1987.

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A couple other notes on local recruiting:

-We've got 29 offers out to 2020 players and 12 offers out to the class of 2021. 8 of the 29 2020 offers are to local players, and 1 of the 12 2021 offers is to a local - Kern. We'll see more local 2021 offers soon. Not sure how many more we could see in 2020; depends on late bloomers, transfers, etc.

-What matters more than how many local guys we've got on the roster right now is that the local AAU and HS programs respect SLU as a good destination for their players. Do coaches like and respect our coaches? Do we have some stability with the staff? Do kids coming up in STL basketball follow SLU as fans? Do they look up to guys at SLU or who played there before? Are there enough guys having success at the next level? Are our players and coaches visible in the local basketball community? Are former players in the area with positive things to say about the program? Are we on TV enough? Are our facilities and academics big-time enough?

These things all matter, and I'm always interested in the perception of the program, especially by local coaches and players.

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37 minutes ago, Pistol said:

There's more than one way to succeed.

It's true that SLU's relationshp with local HS and AAU programs has been up and down over the years and that we needed to work the local programs harder because there's so much talent in the region. I like that we're currently at a relatively high wave in terms of local representation on the roster. Sometimes this can be a burden, like when there are local players with baggage or difficult families or whatever. It can also create additional difficulties if there's frequent coaching turnover.

Bottom line is that in SLU's history, a local-heavy roster is not necessarily correlated to success.

One of our most successful runs in program history - the three seasons from 2011 to 2014 - saw exactly one local player* on the roster - Kyle Cassity, whose senior season was 2011-2012. The next time we had a local kid, it was Austin Gillmann in 2014-2015 and that was the first year we started to tank under Crews.

The 2019-2020 roster already has more local players (6) than we've had in any season in over a decade. We had 6 local guys in 2006-2007, 7 the following year, and 5 or 6 the year after that (depending on whether you include Brett Thompson from Vienna, IL).

Aside from that stretch in 2007-2009, It wasn't routine for SLU to have about half the roster made up of locals going back to the late 90s. From 1992-1993 until 1999-2000, every team had 5 or more locals. Prior to that, it was even more. The high numbers I saw were 1987-1988 and 1991-1992, when we had 9 local players on each team (although 1-2 guys on each roster may have been walk-ons; I couldn't tell).

In the modern era, here are the best seasons SLU has had in order of total wins, with the number of locals following each year and NCAA Tournament seasons in bold:

2012-2013 - 0
2013-2014 - 0
1988-1989 - 6
2011-2012 - 1
1986-1987 - 8
2018-2019 - 3
2009-2010 - 2
1994-1995 - 5
1993-1994 - 5
1997-1998 - 6

This is not an argument for or against pursuing locals. I like most of the local kids we're currently recruiting and would be very happy with more local commitments.

*In my research, I had to draw a line between what was local and what wasn't. I basically include a 1-2 hour radius around St. Louis, so if someone's from a small town in the region, they're generally getting included because STL would be the biggest major city and those kids would've played AAU ball with STL-based programs. I only included scholarship players, too, and I went back to 1987.

I would like to know what the attendance was when we had 3 or more locals on the roster?

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Attendance doesn't matter ..... because its just another statistic that you can use to prove whatever you are aiming for.  The SLU record book currently only lists the Chaifetz years.  Since 2008-2009 extending only through 2013-2014 because that's all I got, the average attendance listed was:  7627, 7149, 6299, 7757, 7673, and 8428.  You could likely try to argue that because there were so many St. Louisans on a given roster, more people came to see them.  Base don Pistol's list above, that means 7149 came to see the 2009-2010 team with 2 local players, 7757 came to see the 2011-2012 team with one local player.  And the largest number came to see the group with zero St. Louisan on it/  Which just means St. Loui sis a front runner crowd and really comes to support a winner. 

Two other things to consider .. prior to the noted year, we played in Savvis and the Arena ... both facilities sat about 8k more fans than Chaifetz.  That would skew the numbers some, no?  And the most important one to me is the fact that SLU reports number of tickets sold I believe.  Meaning if they says attendance was 4k it's more likely 2k actual fannies in actual seats.  Attendance to me has always meant in the building.  So attendance is irrelevant from a proving point of any kind. 

Win and make it an event.  They will come regardless.

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Expanding on Taj's post, here's average attendance by season, followed by record, number of local players, and arena:

2018-2019 - 6,984 - 23-13 - 3 - Chaifetz
2017-2018 - 6,225 - 17-16 - 2 - Chaifetz
2016-2017 - 5,593 - 12-21 - 3 - Chaifetz
2015-2016 - 6,757 - 11-21 - 2 - Chaifetz
2014-2015 - 7,032 - 11-21 - 1 - Chaifetz
2013-2014 - 8,428 - 27-7 - 0 - Chaifetz
2012-2013 - 7,673 - 28-7 - 0 - Chaifetz
2011-2012 - 7,757 - 26-8 - 1 - Chaifetz
2010-2011 - 6,299 - 12-19 - 2 - Chaifetz
2009-2010 - 7,149 - 23-13 - 2 - Chaifetz
2008-2009 - 7,627 - 18-14 - 6 - Chaifetz
2007-2008 - 8,837 - 16-15 - 7 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2006-2007 - 9,667 - 20-13 - 6 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2005-2006 - 9,325 - 16-13 - 4 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2004-2005 - 8,030 - 9-21 - 2 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2003-2004 - 8,918 - 19-13 - 2 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2002-2003 - 9,232 - 16-14 - 4 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2001-2002 - 11,598 - 15-16 - 3 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
2000-2001 - 12,212 - 17-14 - 4 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1999-2000 - 13,631 - 19-14 - 5 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1998-1999 - 15,142 - 15-16 - 6 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1997-1998 - 17,708 - 22-11 - 6 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1996-1997 - 13,732 - 11-18 - 7 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1995-1996 - 16,986 - 16-14 - 5 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1994-1995 - 17,714 - 23-8 - 5 - Scottrade/Savvis/Kiel
1993-1994 - 13,008 - 23-6 - 6 - St. Louis Arena
1992-1993 - 8,591 - 12-17 - 6 - St. Louis Arena
1991-1992 - 7,697 - 5-23 - 9 - St. Louis Arena
1990-1991 - 6,993 - 19-14 - 7 - Kiel
1989-1990 - 6,982 - 21-12 - 7 - Kiel
1988-1989 - 6,281 - 27-10 - 6 - Kiel
1987-1988 - 5,658 - 14-14 - 9 - Kiel

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My dream is always to have all metro teams 5 starters to sign. If below that I’d pass. 

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In Chaifetz, we see a much more direct correlation between record and attendance, although the fluctuations aren't huge.

In Kiel, at least in the seasons I went back to, there's a steady growth despite the record dipping.

At the Arena, the growth continues, with a major jump in 1993-1994, which was Spoon's second year and became our first Tournament appearance since 1957. Highmark, Claggett, and Waldman were juniors. Dobbs was a senior. The program was back.

So we see a second consecutive massive jump in 1994-1995, building on that previous season. This was Spoon's second straight Tournament team, and the senior season for Claggs, Highmark, and H.

Attendance drops for the first time since the mid-80s in the 1995-1996 season after the big three graduate. The roster is still about half local players. We've now transitioned to Conference USA. Then a more significant dip the next year, when the team goes 11-18.

Then it's Larry Hughes time! 1997-1998 barely misses the record average attendance set a few seasons earlier. The place is rocking every night for the local star and SLU wins 22 games and loses in the second round of the Tournament.

Then we see seven consecutive seasons of attendance declines. We never win 20 games in this stretch, culminating in a 9-win season my senior year (2004-2005). The place is as quiet as a library. This is the last season of C-USA play.

The next two seasons go up because there's nowhere else to go. Sodie wins 20 games in 2006-2007 but is fired anyway.

We hire Majerus but attendance drops a bit as he rebuilds. We transition to Chaifetz and attendance is around 7,000 ever since, give or take based on performance. The three best seasons are the program's best three-season stretch in the modern era, with three of the four highest win totals ever and almost no local players.

I'm not taking into account external forces: The rise and fall and departure of the Rams, the ebb and flow of Blues seasons, the economy tanking in the late-00s, etc.

Bottom line: The formula for maximizing attendance probably involves both winning a lot of games and having marketable local stars. We no longer have a 20,000-seat arena but we could fill 10,600 if things go well.

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17 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Look, the title of the thread says "local roster building."  One guy wants to include Sikeston in there.  Okay, but only because he played with the Eagles.  Someone said Sikeston is closer to Memphis but what do I know.  Then another guy includes Hasahn French.  Who hails from local Middletown, NY.  Never mind the fact that verbal commits lists him at 3.3 stars.  Maybe you round that up...... like 3.7 star Javon Bess, just outside the St.Louis metroplex in Akron, Ohio.  Then another anoints Lewis as a 3-star like shooter.  Sure, fine by me.  Ofcourse, this is after he took 5 shots per game in 12 played at Duquesne.  

While I agree Lewis isn't and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Beal, Lee, Liddell, etc., the bigger names and talentsd leave St. Louis, always have.  The aforementioned are some but so did Tyler Cook, Xavier Snead, Jeremiah Tilmon, Carte'Are Gordon, Loren Woods, Chris Carawell, Courtney Stockard, LaPhonso Ellis, and many more.  Only winning and a committed coach is what they'll stay home for.  

The one statement I'll agree with is the one that says be the power in the A10 first, then we can talk.  

One of these things is not like the others. 

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-good to see our avg attendance increase for this past season, I hope that trend continues

 

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