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St. Johns is pretty much SLU in NYC.  They get hyped being in the Big East and being in New York but they have nickel and dimed their program for years, make cheap hires, crap facilities.  Moser knows the territory but way too much pressure for success there with no track record of support.

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Apparently the St. Johns General Counsel Joe Oliva is trying to overrule his AD Mike Cragg.  If the AD can't hire a coach, what is he there for.

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Read this am in the Post, Porter's been offered. Hasn't accepted so far. 

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30 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

 

Apparently the St. Johns General Counsel Joe Oliva is trying to overrule his AD Mike Cragg.  If the AD can't hire a coach, what is he there for.

To be the fall guy when back room deals don't work out.

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Sounds like the AD at St. John's is the one who will be searching for a job soon. Butted heads with Chris Mullin, wasn't on the same page as the president, now wants a different coach than the GC. Even if they wind up with a good coach, it'll almost be by accident given how messy the process has been.

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43 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

 

Apparently the St. Johns General Counsel Joe Oliva is trying to overrule his AD Mike Cragg.  If the AD can't hire a coach, what is he there for.

 

12 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

To be the fall guy when back room deals don't work out.

 

My guess is Cragg had total control when he convinced boosters and his bosses that buying out Mullins after a NCAA tournament season was the right move because he had Bobby Hurley locked down as the next coach.  When he didn't deliver on that, I am sure many people lost faith in him.  I don't blame them.  If I was booster that was convinced by Cragg to give a million dollars to pay Mullins to leave because Cragg promised me Hurley, I would be pissed.  I wouldn't want Cragg involved anymore at all.

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54 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Sounds like the AD at St. John's is the one who will be searching for a job soon. Butted heads with Chris Mullin, wasn't on the same page as the president, now wants a different coach than the GC. Even if they wind up with a good coach, it'll almost be by accident given how messy the process has been.

Cragg showed himself to be completely minor league. He let himself get played by Hurley.  Bobby Hurley would have killed it at St. John's, but you have to make sure you have that deal is completely locked down before you make a move.

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This is a good life lesson that everyone should learn. If you stretch your neck over the chopping block to get the people that run the show to support your initiative, you just MUST deliver. If something goes wrong and it does not work, you are not going to be around for much longer.

People in this situation will tend to place the blame for their downfall on someone else, usually someone that works for them. Before this AD goes he will probably take his revenge upon his subordinates. They will most likely have to rebuild the Athletic Department as a result of this.

 

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1 hour ago, brianstl said:

 

 

My guess is Cragg had total control when he convinced boosters and his bosses that buying out Mullins after a NCAA tournament season was the right move because he had Bobby Hurley locked down as the next coach.  When he didn't deliver on that, I am sure many people lost faith in him.  I don't blame them.  If I was booster that was convinced by Cragg to give a million dollars to pay Mullins to leave because Cragg promised me Hurley, I would be pissed.  I wouldn't want Cragg involved anymore at all.

From what I've read, the president of St John's, Bobby Gempesaw and his super booster friend Mike Repole, were the ones pushing for Hurley.  It didn't work out and now the AD is being hung out to dry.

I suspect that Gempesaw, who was the reason Mullin got the job in the first place, brought in Cragg to fire Mullin once their relationship turned sour.  Once St John's goes through another AD it will become apparent that the president is the biggest problem.

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St John's sounds like a good place for any coach to avoid until they get their internal politics worked out. I will probably be wrong, but I'd bet on Loyola coughing up a little more dollars and Porter staying put for another year. 

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8 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

From what I've read, the president of St John's, Bobby Gempesaw and his super booster friend Mike Repole, were the ones pushing for Hurley.  It didn't work out and now the AD is being hung out to dry.

I suspect that Gempesaw, who was the reason Mullin got the job in the first place, brought in Cragg to fire Mullin once their relationship turned sour.  Once St John's goes through another AD it will become apparent that the president is the biggest problem.

That is very interesting and rings very true as well. Sure the top dog will hang his failures upon someone else who is disposable. It is a LOT easier to terminate an AD than a University president. Gempesaw will most likely continue his MO for several years just because no one will point the finger at him.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

Moser turns down the Johnnies. What a train wreck. 

Hope he got a raise out of it.

Edited by kmbilliken

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To date, 53 D1 coaching jobs have changed or are undergoing change. The domino effect will likely add to the total.  So that's about 15% of the coaching positions changing this off season.

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On 4/16/2019 at 7:51 AM, HoosierPal said:

 

Apparently the St. Johns General Counsel Joe Oliva is trying to overrule his AD Mike Cragg.  If the AD can't hire a coach, what is he there for.

Bad idea to take a job where you have split support.  It is hard enough to succeed but half of the power structure is not for you it can only end bad.

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17 hours ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

How did Loyola do this year? If porter goes to the tourney again his stock will raise but if he misses it next year he will regret turning down St. John’s 

I think you over estimate the value of coaching in a middle of the pack team in a good conference.  Porter is young, has young children, seems to be an good guy, why would he want to pick up and move across the country to a middle of the pack school with AD issues. He upped his contract last year and is sitting pretty now, the coattails of the final 4 run have not even started yet.....and he looks around town at how well his crosstown rivals does in the big East...

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19 minutes ago, Basketbill said:

I think you over estimate the value of coaching in a middle of the pack team in a good conference.  Porter is young, has young children, seems to be an good guy, why would he want to pick up and move across the country to a middle of the pack school with AD issues. He upped his contract last year and is sitting pretty now, the coattails of the final 4 run have not even started yet.....and he looks around town at how well his crosstown rivals does in the big East...

considering where loyola has historically been, it is my guess that barring a scandal or something not like good guy porter, he can stay at loyola as long as he wants.   that final four was loyola's crown jewel performance and imo porter is set for life.   he takes that next step up and he would be accepting his next future ex job.  i sure would make sure the payday was well worth it.   

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15 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

considering where loyola has historically been, it is my guess that barring a scandal or something not like good guy porter, he can stay at loyola as long as he wants.   that final four was loyola's crown jewel performance and imo porter is set for life.   he takes that next step up and he would be accepting his next future ex job.  i sure would make sure the payday was well worth it.   

He's in the same position Phil Martelli was 15 years ago.  That's about as good as it gets for anybody who isn't a Hall of Fame coach.

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6 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

He's in the same position Phil Martelli was 15 years ago.  That's about as good as it gets for anybody who isn't a Hall of Fame coach.

Reading Basketbill & Roy's posts ahead of yours, Martelli's situation was at the top of my mind.  Deep tournament runs actually probably helped Phil hang onto his job twice.  He made  the Sweet 16 in his 2nd year at St Joes (1997) then was able to hang on through 3 losing seasons following that before making another NCAA appearance in 2001.  Then he made the Elite Eight in 2004.  That run allowed him to hang on for 15 more years despite having more losing seasons (5 including his final one this year) than NCAA appearances (3) during that stretch.

I'm sure Porter makes pretty good coin at Loyola after the final four run.  For a guy who values stability, staying around an earning a good paycheck for 15 - 20 years might be better without fear of losing your job is probably better than taking a better paying job that you might only have for 3 years.

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3 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Reading Basketbill & Roy's posts ahead of yours, Martelli's situation was at the top of my mind.  Deep tournament runs actually probably helped Phil hang onto his job twice.  He made  the Sweet 16 in his 2nd year at St Joes (1997) then was able to hang on through 3 losing seasons following that before making another NCAA appearance in 2001.  Then he made the Elite Eight in 2004.  That run allowed him to hang on for 15 more years despite having more losing seasons (5 including his final one this year) than NCAA appearances (3) during that stretch.

I'm sure Porter makes pretty good coin at Loyola after the final four run.  For a guy who values stability, staying around an earning a good paycheck for 15 - 20 years might be better without fear of losing your job is probably better than taking a better paying job that you might only have for 3 years.

In your 2nd paragraph you might be able to delete Porter/Loyola and substitute Ford/SLU. Hopefully!

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6 minutes ago, bauman said:

In your 2nd paragraph you might be able to delete Porter/Loyola and substitute Ford/SLU. Hopefully!

Right, except Ford needs that deep tournament run to buy him some goodwill at SLU before he won't have to fear losing is job after a few down seasons.

That is sort of an interesting fan question though.  If Ford duplicated the level of success (failure?) that Martelli had at St. Joes during his 24 years there, would you be happy with that?

 

Martelli's St Joe's resume over 24 seasons:

overall record: 444-328 (.575) 

A-10 conference record: 217-175 (.555)

7 NCAA appearances, 1 elite eight, 1 sweet sixteen, 2 round of 32s, 3 1st round losses

4 regular season A10 titles, 3 A10 tournament titles (1 season with both at the same time)

6 NIT appearances, 2 runner ups, 2 2nd rounds, 2 1st round losses

8 seasons with a below .500 record

 

I think I probably would be happy with that out of Ford even if it ended on a similar note:

 

For reference here are SLU's numbers over Martelli's career  (1995-96 through 2018-19):

overall record: 419-349 (.546)

CUSA & A10 conference record: 196-194 (.503)

6 NCAA apperances, 4 round of 32s, 2 1st round losses

2 regular season A10 titles, 3 conference (1 CUSA, 2 A10) tournament titles (1 season with both at the same time)

3 NIT appearances, 1 2nd round, 2 1st round losses

1 CBI runner up

8 seasons with a below .500 record

 

Actually more similar overall than I would have thought (just without the elite eight, sweet 16, and NIT runner up runs in there for SLU).  I'd argue the old CUSA was tougher than the A10 which is why SLU's conference record and regular season conference titles aren't as strong.  Side note: The 24 season cut off doesn't do SLU any favors because they had 2 NCAA appearances in the seasons leading up to our time frame.

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I wouldn't be happy at all if Ford had Martelli-esque results here.

St Joes is a little over half the size of SLU. They've made some nice upgrades to their campus recently, and are located in a really good area right off the Main Line in Philly. But their facilities aren't comparable to ours...and it's really not close. No Med School. No Law School. Hagan Arena isn't great. For the most part, our expectations shouldn't be aligned with Regional schools. Martelli was great for St. Joes. Going to the Tourney once every 3.5 years is outstanding for them. 

I think our goal needs to be the NCAA Tournament 3 out of 5 years, or at least 5 times every decade. If Xavier did it (a rare exception for regional private schools), so can we. Up until they took off in 2000, X was hovering at about 5 out of 10 years in the Tourney. That is a realistic expectation to have for a school like SLU in my opinion. 

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