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Debate: Last Night's Bunnie Win


Taj79

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Anybody see the end? Of course, I did says man with no life outside the A10 .....

Tie game.  Thirty-six seconds on clock.  La Salle has ball.  Saul Phiri drives and slips in process.  Loses ball to Courtney Stockard.  Bunnies cross half court, call time out.  Set play.  With six ticks on clock, Kyle Lofton goes one-on-one, pulls up at left elbow, pops in jumper.  Bunnies up two.  La Salle time out with 3.1 seconds to go.  La Salle draws up play.  Comes out.  Sees defense. Calls last time out.  Inbounding under basket, must go length of court to tie or win.

David Beatty has ball.  Runs from right baseline to left.  Heaves ball to top of circle 3/4 court.  Ball is tipped and bounds toward La Salle bench as horn sounds.  My, my .... that seemed quick.  Refs review.  Turns out, Bonaventure time keeper started clock when Beatty made throw.  Plain as day clock starts as ball leaves Beatty's hand. Clock should not start until someone touches it.  Blatantly NOT the case.  Even Bunnie announcers say so.  After review, ref extends hands in front from chest out, ala incomplete pass. Game over, Bunnies win.

My thought is at worst, technical foul on home team scoreboard operator.  At least, replay final 3.1 seconds.  What say the court of MBMs? A Bunnie loss would have been to our benefit.

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I tuned in after seeing Lasalle was coming back - hoping for an SBU defeat. My impression from searching the Internet afterwards is that referees followed a flawed rule. Same thing happened in an NCAA tourney game in a recent year. For some reason they can't have a pure do-over. Instead they look at the replay and re-time the play based on how clock should have run and see whether time would have run out after the shot. They ignore the fact that the shot was needlessly rushed.

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That seems like a rule that needs to be changed although I can kind of see why it hasn't been. If you give a do-over, and the team with the ball scores and wins, the defending team might then feel cheated. I've seen a lot of basketball and I've seen time added to the clock in certain situations. I've never seen a do-over for any reason. (I'm editing to say that jump balls are sometimes done over. I can't think of any other scenario though.)

I guess going forward, the coach of any team in that situation (need a basket to win/tie and short time on the clock) would need to tell his team to run the play he called for and ignore the clock and the horn. That way IF the clock is started prematurely, AND they make the shot, a stopwatch might be their only hope of winning.

Another thing to remember by the way regarding Taj's call for a technical, the timekeeper is not the only one in the building with the ability to start the clock. All three officials have that capability and any one of them could have made the mistake. However, it's a mistake that NONE of the four should have made.

Edited by White Pelican
a thought came to me, okay?
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9 hours ago, White Pelican said:

That seems like a rule that needs to be changed although I can kind of see why it hasn't been. If you give a do-over, and the team with the ball scores and wins, the defending team might then feel cheated. I've seen a lot of basketball and I've seen time added to the clock in certain situations. I've never seen a do-over for any reason. (I'm editing to say that jump balls are sometimes done over. I can't think of any other scenario though.)

I guess going forward, the coach of any team in that situation (need a basket to win/tie and short time on the clock) would need to tell his team to run the play he called for and ignore the clock and the horn. That way IF the clock is started prematurely, AND they make the shot, a stopwatch might be their only hope of winning.

Another thing to remember by the way regarding Taj's call for a technical, the timekeeper is not the only one in the building with the ability to start the clock. All three officials have that capability and any one of them could have made the mistake. However, it's a mistake that NONE of the four should have made.

actually i am pretty sure the refs control starting and stopping the clock.   their whistles automatically start the clock and they have a button on a pack clipped to their belt they will press to start the clock.   

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25 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

actually i am pretty sure the refs control starting and stopping the clock.   their whistles automatically start the clock and they have a button on a pack clipped to their belt they will press to start the clock.   

BRoy, here is an interesting article on a ref's whistle.  Yes, it does control the clock.  Also it has no pea.  And the louder you blow, the louder the whistle.  The controversy is what note does it play?  Experts disagree between a G and an A but tests have show it is an A (for those discerning  fans).

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/20/sports/ncaabasketball/shrill-to-ncaa-tournament-referees-its-symphonic.html

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-so it's not possible for someone at the table to start the game clock? interesting,  if it's not possible why do the refs make the signal to start the clock? is that just for shot clock? is there a way to determine what ref started the clock in this situation since the table can't start it?

-could what Taj describes have done been intentionally to impact the game? certainly and I have no way to know if it was or not and I am not saying it was done intentionally (it was probably just a mess up), but the the keeper of the book and the keeper of the time are game officials, it's addressed in the worst officiated league I'm aware of by how the NHL sends different off-ice officials in for playoff games

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11 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-so it's not possible for someone at the table to start the game clock? interesting,  if it's not possible why do the refs make the signal to start the clock? is that just for shot clock? is there a way to determine what ref started the clock in this situation since the table can't start it?

-could what Taj describes have done been intentionally to impact the game? certainly and I have no way to know if it was or not and I am not saying it was done intentionally (it was probably just a mess up), but the the keeper of the book and the keeper of the time are game officials, it's addressed in the worst officiated league I'm aware of by how the NHL sends different off-ice officials in for playoff games

i believe that the table does indeed control the shot clock.   that's it.  

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10 hours ago, White Pelican said:

That seems like a rule that needs to be changed although I can kind of see why it hasn't been. If you give a do-over, and the team with the ball scores and wins, the defending team might then feel cheated. I've seen a lot of basketball and I've seen time added to the clock in certain situations. I've never seen a do-over for any reason. (I'm editing to say that jump balls are sometimes done over. I can't think of any other scenario though.)

I guess going forward, the coach of any team in that situation (need a basket to win/tie and short time on the clock) would need to tell his team to run the play he called for and ignore the clock and the horn. That way IF the clock is started prematurely, AND they make the shot, a stopwatch might be their only hope of winning.

Another thing to remember by the way regarding Taj's call for a technical, the timekeeper is not the only one in the building with the ability to start the clock. All three officials have that capability and any one of them could have made the mistake. However, it's a mistake that NONE of the four should have made.

Do-Over. How about the Olympic basketball game US vs Russia. 72 or 76. I'm too lazy to look it up. Do-Over twice. 

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4 minutes ago, willie said:

Do-Over. How about the Olympic basketball game US vs Russia. 72 or 76. I'm too lazy to look it up. Do-Over twice. 

72  biggest theft in sports history.  

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respectfully Matty, i assume you werent alive when the olympic refs played the last few second over 3x in order for the soviets to win.   nothing comes close to injustice in sports history imo.  

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1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

respectfully Matty, i assume you werent alive when the olympic refs played the last few second over 3x in order for the soviets to win.   nothing comes close to injustice in sports history imo.  

Agreed That team still refuses to accept their silver medal. 

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6 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

i believe that the table does indeed control the shot clock.   that's it.  

I worked the clock the first few seasons at Chaifetz. I did the scoreboard while my brother did the shot clock (surprising how difficult that job can be). With regards to the starting and stopping of the game clock, it is correct that the clock stops automatically on the refs whistle and that they start the clock using a pack they have on their waist. From my experience, we did run into issues with the technology at times, so I would start and stop the clock on the scoreboard as well just in case (I essentially acted as if the refs had no control of the clock) and I am pretty sure that I was in control of stopping and starting the clock under a minute on made baskets. I remember one game one of the refs kept inadvertently stopping the clock I think from breathing into his whistle and I kept having to restart the game clock, happened a handful of times during the game and I know one of the times the SLU bench noticed it. I was so nervous he was going to inadvertently stop the clock late in the game in a big situation, but fortunately SLU built a bit of a lead taking the suspense out of it. It was fun having fans yell at me for clock errors when it was almost always the fault of the refs, but I don't recall any real significant blunders from my time.

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Hey, TheChosenOne, thanks for the personal account of the clock operation. I figured there had to be some control from the table in case the technology failed or whatever. And yeah, the made basket thing in the final minute, they don't blow a whistle for that.

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9 hours ago, willie said:

Agreed That team still refuses to accept their silver medal. 

Yeah that is one of the most insane things in sports history not just basketball.

I was reading something about it the other day and one of the players, I forget who, has in his will, that when he dies, nobody is ever allowed to accept the medal for him.

He has it worded that even if the Olympic committee awards the US the medal nobody in his family is allowed to claim it.

Crazy!!

 

 

Edit: Kenny Davis has it in his will that his wife and descendants are never allowed to accept the silver medal.

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The ESPN doc Basketball:A Love Story has quite a lot of coverage on the 72 game and its aftermath.  Also there is an ESPN 30 for 30 short called Silver Reunion covers a reunion of the 72 team and their decision to never accept the silver medals.

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I pulled up a Bob Costas clip on the '72 game.  It points out that Dr. William Jones, the Basketball Federation Secretary from Great Britain, who had no authority at the game, gave the Soviets the first redo as they had wanted to call a TO after Collins FT, but weren't given the TO until 1 sec left.  The ref then let the game restart before the clock had been reset to three seconds.  So Jones allowed a second redo.  Weird stuff.  This Dr. Jones appears to be the culprit.

Coach Iba should have guarded the third inbound throw, but elected not to.

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9 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

I pulled up a Bob Costas clip on the '72 game.  It points out that Dr. William Jones, the Basketball Federation Secretary from Great Britain, who had no authority at the game, gave the Soviets the first redo as they had wanted to call a TO after Collins FT, but weren't given the TO until 1 sec left.  The ref then let the game restart before the clock had been reset to three seconds.  So Jones allowed a second redo.  Weird stuff.  This Dr. Jones appears to be the culprit.

Coach Iba should have guarded the third inbound throw, but elected not to.

They were guarding the inbounds on the 3rd try.  The referee pulled the defender back for no reason.  The defender, Tom Mcmillen, claims the ref told him he had to be 5 feet away from the defender.  The ref claims he didn't.  Replays of the game show the ref gesturing the Mcmillen to move away from the inbounds.

Its been said that Jones was a communist sympathizer and thought a soviet victory would result in more globalization of the game and that is why he interjected himself into the proceedings.

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10 minutes ago, thetorch said:

They were guarding the inbounds on the 3rd try.  The referee pulled the defender back for no reason.  The defender, Tom Mcmillen, claims the ref told him he had to be 5 feet away from the defender.  The ref claims he didn't.  Replays of the game show the ref gesturing the Mcmillen to move away from the inbounds.

Its been said that Jones was a communist sympathizer and thought a soviet victory would result in more globalization of the game and that is why he interjected himself into the proceedings.

Noble intentions doesn't make cheating right.

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