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Taj79

Richmond from da' Couch ......

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... pretty amazing how a 5 and 0 start with realistic expectations to go to 8 and 0 now appears to be a 5 and 4 conference record come Saturday night.  The GDT and other threads have chronicled just about everything.  I can't add too much more.  The preseason conference favorite does NOT lose to a 1 and 6, 13th place team on its home floor.  Ever.  But every one of us --- to a man -- predicted or projected that somewhere along the line, we would experience a trip up at home because, well, we always do.  Maybe we get this out of our system now.  I really don't know.  I don't have answers going forward.  This team is what it is --- because of all the situations surrounding it.  Lack of basketball skills.  Lack of basketball IQs.  Lack of depth.  Lack of shooters.  Lack of certain players.  Lack of free throw makers.  Lack of a true point guard.  Lack of options.  You acknowledge that and you try to deal with it.  How?  Don't know.  We can't press with a short bench but maybe we can play more with Goodwin and Thatch combined in more often and having those two apply up court pressure.  We could press but then we might, as skip suggests, miss layups and blow odd-man rushes just like we do now. 

Lots of disappoint reigns.  I too was sold an apparent bill of goods thinking this team was good.  But I've got to believe, however, a full roster including those that left this year and last, would be untouchable in the current A10.  Cie la vie.  Outside of Bess, no one has really improved much.  Goodwin is incredibly inconsistent right now.  He stuffs stat sheets well enough but that alone shows you that doing such does not make a complete ballplayer.  French is dominant from three feet in.  Given his free throw ineptitude, can't wait to see him pop a ten- or twelve-foot jumper one day.  The accumulated speed in flight will likely shatter the backboard at this rate.  Only Bess has overachieved or been better than advertised. 

Much like Anthony, the grad transfers have been oversold.  Isabell is a disaster right now; Wiley too often injured.  But as Clock and others have pointed out, risks were taken and the rewards were not realized.  Count me in the group that says leave GTs to go elsewhere. 

The freshmen are all in some sort of development realm.  Two left, and while Thatch can play defense, his offense is suspect.  Hankton had a decent game last night but much like I was advocating for Wojcik or Gustavson ot beat us, Mooney decided not to cover Hankton and basically said lets see if he can beat us.  He almost did.  But Richmond did not cover him in the least bit.  And he showed enough smarts to know that zone defenses allow roamers to hit the offensive boards and get put backs.  It was a nice sign of hope on his account.  Jacobs is MIA; could likely end his SLU career that way, who knows. 

What angers or perplexes me most is actually me.  I forgot the game was even being played.  As in 'I don't seem to care."  That really hurts for me.  I laughed at 13's account of how the GDT would go but figured he was right on.  Apathy is starting to set in and I've lived through so much crappy SLU stuff that I thought apathy would never rear its head again.  And yet, here I am contemplating cancelling Brooklyn because who needs to drop big bucks in the Big Apple when this shite show will be available on my free cable package? 

Maybe I'll be walke doff th eledge.   Maybe Saturday we'll pull one out in Kingston.  Not too hepped on that possibility right now.  Surprise me.

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Taj79, it does appear that we were over rated and this season is rapidly becoming one big disappointment. Glad I have my wife's Vols to keep me very interested in college hoops.

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3 hours ago, Taj79 said:

... pretty amazing how a 5 and 0 start with realistic expectations to go to 8 and 0 now appears to be a 5 and 4 conference record come Saturday night.  The GDT and other threads have chronicled just about everything.  I can't add too much more.  The preseason conference favorite does NOT lose to a 1 and 6, 13th place team on its home floor.  Ever.  But every one of us --- to a man -- predicted or projected that somewhere along the line, we would experience a trip up at home because, well, we always do.  Maybe we get this out of our system now.  I really don't know.  I don't have answers going forward.  This team is what it is --- because of all the situations surrounding it.  Lack of basketball skills.  Lack of basketball IQs.  Lack of depth.  Lack of shooters.  Lack of certain players.  Lack of free throw makers.  Lack of a true point guard.  Lack of options.  You acknowledge that and you try to deal with it.  How?  Don't know.  We can't press with a short bench but maybe we can play more with Goodwin and Thatch combined in more often and having those two apply up court pressure.  We could press but then we might, as skip suggests, miss layups and blow odd-man rushes just like we do now. 

Lots of disappoint reigns.  I too was sold an apparent bill of goods thinking this team was good.  But I've got to believe, however, a full roster including those that left this year and last, would be untouchable in the current A10.  Cie la vie.  Outside of Bess, no one has really improved much.  Goodwin is incredibly inconsistent right now.  He stuffs stat sheets well enough but that alone shows you that doing such does not make a complete ballplayer.  French is dominant from three feet in.  Given his free throw ineptitude, can't wait to see him pop a ten- or twelve-foot jumper one day.  The accumulated speed in flight will likely shatter the backboard at this rate.  Only Bess has overachieved or been better than advertised. 

Much like Anthony, the grad transfers have been oversold.  Isabell is a disaster right now; Wiley too often injured.  But as Clock and others have pointed out, risks were taken and the rewards were not realized.  Count me in the group that says leave GTs to go elsewhere. 

The freshmen are all in some sort of development realm.  Two left, and while Thatch can play defense, his offense is suspect.  Hankton had a decent game last night but much like I was advocating for Wojcik or Gustavson ot beat us, Mooney decided not to cover Hankton and basically said lets see if he can beat us.  He almost did.  But Richmond did not cover him in the least bit.  And he showed enough smarts to know that zone defenses allow roamers to hit the offensive boards and get put backs.  It was a nice sign of hope on his account.  Jacobs is MIA; could likely end his SLU career that way, who knows. 

What angers or perplexes me most is actually me.  I forgot the game was even being played.  As in 'I don't seem to care."  That really hurts for me.  I laughed at 13's account of how the GDT would go but figured he was right on.  Apathy is starting to set in and I've lived through so much crappy SLU stuff that I thought apathy would never rear its head again.  And yet, here I am contemplating cancelling Brooklyn because who needs to drop big bucks in the Big Apple when this shite show will be available on my free cable package? 

Maybe I'll be walke doff th eledge.   Maybe Saturday we'll pull one out in Kingston.  Not too hepped on that possibility right now.  Surprise me.

Even more depressing is that Duquesne in Dambrots year 2  is 6 and 2 and on the upswing with a true point guard in Carry and a better overall roster ..at Duquesne!!

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19 minutes ago, GoBills73 said:

True. But Ford had as good a roster if not better in HIS year 2 before S2.

You missed the point . We are talking DUQUESNE ..

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Richmond had a plan - and a good matchup with their best player - and then shot nearly 60% from floor in both halves, missed only one foul shot for the game. Three games in a row, we are the highlight of someone else's season, which is tough. A10 coaches have studied the tape, figured out a way to beat SLU. Still we almost won both of the last two. So how does Ford respond? Every player now playing still needs to play minutes, but I'd be surprised if there is no change to starting lineup and rotation. What do you expect will be the starting lineup on Saturday? Goodwin Thatch Bess Hankton French? Or no change?

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35 minutes ago, NYBilliken said:

Richmond had a plan - and a good matchup with their best player - and then shot nearly 60% from floor in both halves, missed only one foul shot for the game. Three games in a row, we are the highlight of someone else's season, which is tough. A10 coaches have studied the tape, figured out a way to beat SLU. Still we almost won both of the last two. So how does Ford respond? Every player now playing still needs to play minutes, but I'd be surprised if there is no change to starting lineup and rotation. What do you expect will be the starting lineup on Saturday? Goodwin Thatch Bess Hankton French? Or no change?

I expect no change but that should be the lineup 

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I expect no change either.  Even if that is the lineup I expect a quick hook if Fred commits an early turnover or Hankton misses his first two shots.  That's just who Coach is. I've talked about the downsides of life as a blue chipper but this is one of the perks: 4 star freshmen are allowed to play through mistakes.

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4 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

I expect no change either.  Even if that is the lineup I expect a quick hook if Fred commits an early turnover or Hankton misses his first two shots.  That's just who Coach is. I've talked about the downsides of life as a blue chipper but this is one of the perks: 4 star freshmen are allowed to play through mistakes.

I can understand the quick hook when one blows a defensive assignment.  It can lead to free points.  But Isabel lets his man drive past him with ease and sells out for steals all of the time.  I wish Ford would treat him like a first year player, too.

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At the end of the game, the stat sheet will read the same. Bess, 35 to 40 min, Goodwin and French 30 to 35 min.  Foreman will get his 20 min.  Isabell will be 20 to 30, Wiley and Thatch 15 to 20, and Hankton 10 to 15.  You can start whomever you want.  The minutes won't change. 

From his Monday interview, I interpret Coach as being a little upset with Jacobs.  The trainers have given him the green light, but Jacobs doesn't feel ready to go. Once the green light is out there, he won't be ready to play extended minutes for a while.

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13 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

I expect no change either.  Even if that is the lineup I expect a quick hook if Fred commits an early turnover or Hankton misses his first two shots.  That's just who Coach is. I've talked about the downsides of life as a blue chipper but this is one of the perks: 4 star freshmen are allowed to play through mistakes.

Since the App State game, Hankton has gotten solid minutes when he has been fully healthy. This is assuming this is his first game being 100% healthy since the first half of the LaSalle game. I don't think he's been on a short leash. But I also think he's played really well in the games he's been healthy so there's been no reason to pull him. I could see him as the 6th man at worst by the end of the season of things keep going the way they have.

 

Thatch on the other hand I think should get a little longer leash. His toughness and on ball defense has been really good. He's not great off the ball but most freshmen aren't. I think we see a lot more of him going forward as well.

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3 hours ago, NYBilliken said:

Richmond had a plan - and a good matchup with their best player - and then shot nearly 60% from floor in both halves, missed only one foul shot for the game. Three games in a row, we are the highlight of someone else's season, which is tough. A10 coaches have studied the tape, figured out a way to beat SLU. Still we almost won both of the last two. So how does Ford respond? Every player now playing still needs to play minutes, but I'd be surprised if there is no change to starting lineup and rotation. What do you expect will be the starting lineup on Saturday? Goodwin Thatch Bess Hankton French? Or no change?

Hmmm...and it just so happens that those 3 opposing coaches are among the 3 best in the conference. 

I like Ford a lot. He was a solid hire and I think he will lead us where we need to go. In my mind, he gets several more years to right the ship. But he, like a lot of coaches, gets overmatched going up against the better coaches in the conference. We can still make up for that with talent...just not this year.  

 

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9 hours ago, Taj79 said:

What angers or perplexes me most is actually me.  I forgot the game was even being played.  As in 'I don't seem to care."  That really hurts for me.  I laughed at 13's account of how the GDT would go but figured he was right on.  Apathy is starting to set in and I've lived through so much crappy SLU stuff that I thought apathy would never rear its head again.  And yet, here I am contemplating cancelling Brooklyn because who needs to drop big bucks in the Big Apple when this shite show will be available on my free cable package? 

Maybe I'll be walke doff th eledge.   Maybe Saturday we'll pull one out in Kingston.  Not too hepped on that possibility right now.  Surprise me.

I was talking with several friends after the game las night, and we all expressed a similar sense of apathy. Despite the obvious improvement overall under Ford, pretty much every year as a Billikens fan has been just a massive gut punch, and my gut is starting to become numb at this point. I don't think a whole lot of fan bases have had it harder in recent years...

Maybe it's due to the fact that by some sheer miracle we got Rick Majerus as coach, who proceeded to build up a potential final 4 contending roster just before falling ill? Or the high of the 2011-2014 seasons and the subsequent crash and burn of the program, giving us the sense that it was just a fleeting dream for us fans, never to be experienced again? Maybe it's due to the endless controversies, scandals, issues resulting in mid season rosters that never reach their pre season potential? Maybe it's just the cruel moments like losing to Davidson in the final seconds, or last night where Bess rimmed off at the buzzer, which feel like a combination of comedy and sorrow, but at this point seem completely "expected" as a Billikens fan?

There's only so many more times I can say "it's hard to be a Billikens fan" after another dismal season, dreaming about the Spoonball years or the 2011-2014 seasons, before I just stop caring. As another poster put it, a "part of my fandom died" (again).  

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10 hours ago, Bizziken said:

Hmmm...and it just so happens that those 3 opposing coaches are among the 3 best in the conference. 

I like Ford a lot. He was a solid hire and I think he will lead us where we need to go. In my mind, he gets several more years to right the ship. But he, like a lot of coaches, gets overmatched going up against the better coaches in the conference. We can still make up for that with talent...just not this year.  

 

Not directed only at Bizzken, but I am surprised (but then again, not surprised) that when we "unexpectedly" won 17 games last year, Coach Ford received all types of praise from most of the same posters who now say the above:  Ford can recruit but not game coach.    No doubt Oklahoma State fans believe this, and not saying that Ford is on RM"s level, and not say there are not issues to criticize about Ford's decisions this year (that's part of being a fan, even a fan of your own team) but how can Ford be an overachiever last year and a dumb as rocks coach this year?   

And not saying that Ford is not a great recruiter... he is... but enough already with constant claims about how much talent we have this year, how "athletic" our guys are this year.. Again, athletic does not always beat skill, and more importantly, we just aren't as athletic as some might think.  Again, we are at the point, down the stretch of the conference season and ready to take on the better A10 teams, and I would rather not go through each of our guys to point out their flaws and limitations. But re-evaluate our current roster, re-evaluate the talent level, and if you  realize that the talent isn't what you read and were told prior to the season, then back off Coach Ford, enjoy hopefully a 20 win season, enjoy watching Bess, and if you find yourself apathetic about the Billikens, take a break.  Coach Ford has been set back by Situation 2, we are experiencing that setback now but the future looks bright to me..

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Not directed only at Bizzken, but I am surprised (but then again, not surprised) that when we "unexpectedly" won 17 games last year, Coach Ford received all types of praise from most of the same posters who now say the above:  Ford can recruit but not game coach.    No doubt Oklahoma State fans believe this, and not saying that Ford is on RM"s level, and not say there are not issues to criticize about Ford's decisions this year (that's part of being a fan, even a fan of your own team) but how can Ford be an overachiever last year and a dumb as rocks coach this year?   

And not saying that Ford is not a great recruiter... he is... but enough already with constant claims about how much talent we have this year, how "athletic" our guys are this year.. Again, athletic does not always beat skill, and more importantly, we just aren't as athletic as some might think.  Again, we are at the point, down the stretch of the conference season and ready to take on the better A10 teams, and I would rather not go through each of our guys to point out their flaws and limitations. But re-evaluate our current roster, re-evaluate the talent level, and if you  realize that the talent isn't what you read and were told prior to the season, then back off Coach Ford, enjoy hopefully a 20 win season, enjoy watching Bess, and if you find yourself apathetic about the Billikens, take a break.  Coach Ford has been set back by Situation 2, we are experiencing that setback now but the future looks bright to me..

After Crewsplatt, this team is extremely athletic.

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11 hours ago, Spoon-Balls said:

I was talking with several friends after the game las night, and we all expressed a similar sense of apathy. Despite the obvious improvement overall under Ford, pretty much every year as a Billikens fan has been just a massive gut punch, and my gut is starting to become numb at this point. I don't think a whole lot of fan bases have had it harder in recent years...

Maybe it's due to the fact that by some sheer miracle we got Rick Majerus as coach, who proceeded to build up a potential final 4 contending roster just before falling ill? Or the high of the 2011-2014 seasons and the subsequent crash and burn of the program, giving us the sense that it was just a fleeting dream for us fans, never to be experienced again? Maybe it's due to the endless controversies, scandals, issues resulting in mid season rosters that never reach their pre season potential? Maybe it's just the cruel moments like losing to Davidson in the final seconds, or last night where Bess rimmed off at the buzzer, which feel like a combination of comedy and sorrow, but at this point seem completely "expected" as a Billikens fan?

There's only so many more times I can say "it's hard to be a Billikens fan" after another dismal season, dreaming about the Spoonball years or the 2011-2014 seasons, before I just stop caring. As another poster put it, a "part of my fandom died" (again).  

potential final 4 roster? The legend grows

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24 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

potential final 4 roster? The legend grows

Thank you.  I agree.  That team was great, and got into the #10 in National Rankings.  That being said, in those three years we never even reached the second weekend.  Great team? Yes!  Perennial Final 4 contender?  No.

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Some responses ....

billikenblue ---- in my most timid voice, fuok Duquesne.  I don't mean to insult you or anyone else but Duquesne's roster is not that good.  Their record is inflated as they played no one in the OOC.  The two they did play, Penn State and Pitt ... oooh dregs of the Power 5, beat them.  Michael Hughes is not as talented as Hasahn French.  Eric Williams is not as talented as Javon Bess.  The rest are mix and match transfers who play when one is hot -- Dunn-Martin against VCU, Frankie Hughes against Rhode Island.  They are developing some nice momentum right now but they go to Dayton this weekend.  Let's see what happens there.  As far as Dambrot is concerned, he seems to be adopting the coaching style of 'outscore me.'  And that just might work.  No one is taller than 6'8" and they all shoot the three.  Golden State Warriors light.  Maybe that is the future.  Sincere Carry is overhyped.  No one knew him coming in, the transfers and Mike Lewis were supposed to play.  He, like Nick Honor, snuck in there.  One season is not enough of a body of work but he does show promise.

NYBill --- I, like 3-star and 05, expect no changes to the lineup just yet.  A win and 6 and 3 is still decent shape.  A loss and the descent continues.  We are not rock bottom just yet.  As some have said, this record just three years ago at this time of the season and we'd all be rejoicing.  I expect Ford, who is a loyal coach as I see it, to continue to stick with his plan and do what we do.  Yes, it might be the very definition of insanity but we are not desperate, not just yet.  We could win out and turn this all on its ear.  Also on the flip side, we are not St. Joe's.  Its' all relative.  Eventually, if the descent continues, then I for one would cut bait and give the freshmen all they could handle to the demise of the three graduating seniors outside of Bess. 

Matty Light --- I think Ford is balancing on a tight rope as far as Isabell is concerned.  I think most on here see the failed experiment, see the production less than heralded, see that this was not a good move.  But it is what it is.  Ford can't have Isabell bail or go rogue.  You think we have a short bench now?  Of course, if it does go further south, time to throw Jacobs out there and see what his future might hold.  And Jacobs let's remember, is not a freshman because he did a year of prep school as well.

Bizziken --- I'll give you McKillop as a decent coach but Dambrot and Mooney?  The deans of coaches in this league are McKillop and Martelli (not sure I believe that).  Mooney hasn't done squat at Richmond in years.  And Dambrot has yet to prove much in his two years at Duquesne.  He's coming on but give it time.  I also like Schmidt at Bonaventure -- nobody does so much with so little as he does.

Spoon-balls ---- one of my classmates, now a Dayton season ticket holder, has long moved on from the disappointment of the Billikens.  His favorite saying is "The Billikens --- they will always break your heart."  I'm starting to believe he is more right than wrong.  That plus I lost him to the SVU cult --- sad.

Venice & Clock --- spot on in both cases.  [dead] couldn't identify talent we all know that and that's a no-brainer.  And I firmly believe this current version of the Bills --- factoring in the defections of the last two years --- has so many holes.  Just look at the list of "lacks" above.  Is this on Ford?  I am disinclined to lean that way.  Why?  Because at Billiken Madness Night or for the Quincy game, Guy Phillips should have had an opportunity to butcher the following:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, introducing your 2018-2019 Saint Louis University Billikens: Seniors Javon Bess, DJ Foreman and Adonys Henriquez.  Juniors Ty Graves, Jermaine Bishop, Elliott Welmer, Jalen Johnson  and Luis Santos.  Sophomores Jordan Goodwin and Hasahn French.  And Freshmen Carte'Are Gordon, Fred Thatch, Jr., and Demarius Jacobs."

We all know S2 is not on Ford.  We can also assume that Santos is not either.  Welmer is perpetually injured.  Johnson and Gordon leave because .. kids leave.  So I don't think Ford is any dumber this year.  But if the trend of departures continues, then we might have question.  Might.
 

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39 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

potential final 4 roster? The legend grows

I’m still in the camp that believes if Rick had been coaching the team during the 2013 or 2014 tourneys, we would have gone much deeper, “potentially” final 4 (ala Loyola). 

Alas, we’ll never know. I think I just like to imagine it to make myself feel better after nights like Wednesday.

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The one transfer on Ford is Johnson. I think when Ford brought in Isabell and Wiley Jalen said, "uh oh, where do I fit in? What's gonna happen to my minute?" I don't think Ford wanted Johnson to leave, but he must have believed he was upgrading the roster. Hindsight's 20-20 but this was a move that bit him in the butt. It might have been better for the team to have kept Johnson and passed on either Wiley or Isabell. 

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15 minutes ago, slu72 said:

The one transfer on Ford is Johnson. I think when Ford brought in Isabell and Wiley Jalen said, "uh oh, where do I fit in? What's gonna happen to my minute?" I don't think Ford wanted Johnson to leave, but he must have believed he was upgrading the roster. Hindsight's 20-20 but this was a move that bit him in the butt. It might have been better for the team to have kept Johnson and passed on either Wiley or Isabell. 

If we had a 6'7" SG/SF hitting 38% on his three's, matching Bess' 38%, we'd be pretty scary.

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20 minutes ago, slu72 said:

The one transfer on Ford is Johnson. I think when Ford brought in Isabell and Wiley Jalen said, "uh oh, where do I fit in? What's gonna happen to my minute?" I don't think Ford wanted Johnson to leave, but he must have believed he was upgrading the roster. Hindsight's 20-20 but this was a move that bit him in the butt. It might have been better for the team to have kept Johnson and passed on either Wiley or Isabell. 

Hindsight is 20/20.  Virtually everyone believed in the inflated numbers Isabell had at Drexel.  Us MBMs, the preseason rags, Rothstein, Katz.  Everybody.  I only ding coaches for making moves that were obviously incorrect at the time.  And if JJ was scared off by an off-injured 6'4 shooting guard with even less than vertical than he has, I don't know what to tell him.  I'm giving coach a mulligan on this one. 

That being said, Coach has already expressed his preference for building the roster using high school players going forward.  I don't think he's taking any chances with bringing in multiple transfers that might send Thatch or Hankton packing.  He's gotten burned twice with multiple transfers already.

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38 minutes ago, philliken said:

Thank you.  I agree.  That team was great, and got into the #10 in National Rankings.  That being said, in those three years we never even reached the second weekend.  Great team? Yes!  Perennial Final 4 contender?  No.

Jimmy Crews wasn't the greatest floor coach. The team literally coached themselves for 2 years...

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1 minute ago, 3star_recruit said:

Hindsight is 20/20.  Virtually everyone believed in the inflated numbers Isabell had at Drexel.  Us MBMs, the preseason rags, Rothstein, Katz.  Everybody.  I only ding coaches for making moves that were obviously incorrect at the time.  And if JJ was scared off by an off-injured shooting guard with even less than vertical than he has, I don't know what to tell him.  I'm giving coach a mulligan on this one. 

That being said, Coach has already expressed his preference for building the roster using high school players going forward.  I don't think he's taking any chances with bringing in multiple transfers that might send Thatch or Hankton packing.  He's gotten burned twice with multiple transfers already.

I’m guessing the biggest caveat would be for a grad transfer big or two. I mean, we gotta find someone from somewhere to help out Has.

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8 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

I’m guessing the biggest caveat would be for a grad transfer big or two. I mean, we gotta find someone from somewhere to help out Has.

One grad transfer. One high schooler. You don't need two grad transfers to backup a guy who will play 30 min a game. The only other place we have for them to play is the 4 which would take minutes away from Hankton or Hargrove.

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